Where Angels Fear To Tread

[troutchasers]

Greetings Folks,

We introduced ourselves in the new member forum. Thank you all for a very warm welcome! We are hoping we are not “leading with the chin” on our first post, but we really do need to see if our research, learning and conclusion drawing is on track for our Montana purchase.

So here we go… We currently own a VERY well maintained and PAID for 2002 GMC D/A LB with 108K on it. We know and can live with the injector issues. We want to own a 3400RL or 3455SA, but have been hoping to put off replacing the 02 GMC for a few years. Actually to when the grandkids turn of age to necessitate a crew cab, but that’s a few years away.

Our current 5er tow capacity is 15,700. The GVWR for the 3400 and 3455 are 17,500. However, when we look at 2006 Trailer Life tow capacity charts we simply don’t gain tow capacity by buying a 2006 1 ton Duramax. Actually we lose 500lbs. ONLY by going to DRW do w get to 16,300 for a gain of just 600lbs towing capacity. The 2007’s Trailerlife guides were TBD, but we assume they similar ratings. GMC Duramax is a given, end of story.

We have read most of the post in this entire thread going back some time. We don’t wish to reignite a “difference of opinion” debate. We just wish to know if our understanding of the decisions before us are valid.

This is a big deal for us. We will be paying cash for the Montana, hitch and options. If we can’t go Montana we have to look down at an Outback Sidney with a GVWR of about 14K.

We might be able to swing a TV upgrade, but it appears it a decision between a DRW or SRW, not a 1 ton upgrade decision. I don’t want a DRW truck as my primary vehicle.

Thanks Folks…. Your informed opinions and experiences we know are going to be most useful!

Cheers!

Robert and Kerri

[camper4]

Okay, I'll start. Technically you will be out of spec. with your TV. If you look at what some other members tow you will find others who go over their TV ratings too and get along just fine.
Can your truck haul the big Montanas? Sure. But, at what price. The real risk is in emergency manuvers and stops.
To be safest, stay within the ratings of the TV.

[exav8tr]

I have an '06 3400 and it is no way 17,500 GVWR. You need to recheck these numbers as they are very heavy. I think the 3400 GVWR is 15,500. Not sure on the others, the Keystone website should list these. If your current truck is a 2500 you will probably be over the trucks GVWR because of the pin weight of the trailer, (close to 3,000), don't believe the Keystone stats that say 1940 pinweight. Many folks tow overweight and it is their choice, many, myself included, say you will have better stability with the DRW. I don't like the dually but have one for that reason. A pain in the tiny parking lots but you will get used to that. I agree with camper4. I find it hard to believe you lose 500 lbs going from a '02 2500 to an '06 3500. I went from an '05 2500 to a '08 3500 and gained 2100 lbs of payload capacity in the truck, remember the truck carries the pin weight in its figures.

[TLightning]

As stated above the 2500 is not enough truck for a 3400...BTDT. Also, there is a mistake in the numbers you noted. You do not lose towing capacity going to a DRW 3500...that's impossible, but you do gain at least a ton of cargo capacity, which is what you need for the pin weight of a 3400.

Couple of points:

- Ignore all those brochures/web sites/pamphlets, etc, the manufacturers cherry pick numbers...like they'll use the cargo capacity of a gas engine truck because the heavy diesel engine subtracts from the cargo capacity.

- With a 5th wheel the key to a truck is something that will carry the pin weight (and stay within specs)...all diesels will tow fine.

- Actual towing capacity is the GCWR of the truck minus the weight of the truck when ready to tow.

- When looking at a truck, check the Tire and Loading Information sticker on the left door frame, it will give you the cargo capacity for that truck to the nearest one pound...no guessing.

[richfaa]

"Our current 5er tow capacity is 15,700. The GVWR for the 3400 and 3455 are 17,500." something wrong with those numbers.....

[troutchasers]

Our understanding is GVWR for the 3400 is the sum of #12460 Shipping Weight, #3180 CC and #2140 Hitch (otherwise known as “pin weight”). That’s #17780. Again, our understanding is #17780 is the magic number that you will be towing and the number you need to look at when selecting your TV.

I’m relying on Trailerlife TV Rating pages. My 2002 GMC D/A SRW 5er tow capacity is #15,700. The 2006 3500 ExtCab SRW 4WD D/A reads #15,000.

Am I hearing that I SHOULD NOT include pin weight and that actually the 3400 GVWR is #15640 (#17780 minus the pin weight).??

The GCWR for my current rig is #23,000. If we subtract #17780 from 23K we end up with not having a truck, people, hitch and fluids that exceed #5220.

Is our understanding correct here?

Thanks!

[Art-n-Marge]

You DO NOT add the hitch (pin) weight to the GVWR (aka GTWR). The GTWR for a 3400RL is only the Shipping weight (12,346) plus the Carrying Capacity (3,294) or 15,640. The GTWR for a 3455SA is only the shipping weight (12,072) plus the CC (3488) or 15,560 or only 80 lbs lighter than a 3400RL. I got this information from "http://keystone-montana.com/index.php?page=specs" for the 2011 model year Montanas.

The purpose of separate listing the hitch (pin) weight is to calculate or estimate what is carried ON the truck to help determine if you will be exceeding the TV's weight ratings (such as rear axle, gross, tow or combined weight ratings). This is already included in the GTWR.

The problem with the listed hitch weight is that it is WAY under real life (after all they are trying to sell you a rig, not scare you away). To calculate what your truck will be carrying you should estimate 18% to 25% of the GTWR (I am at 20%) as the probable pin weights that will be added to the TV. What causes this jump is that the storage and areas that get loaded with the cargo are in front of the axles which tends to add weight to the pin. It's how Montanas and most residential 5ers are designed.

You should weigh your truck's curb weight (the truck, full fluids and fuel, all the permanent options and accessories like truck cover, liner, aux fuel tank with fuel, stereo, amplifiers, etc and you, the driver). This weight subtracted from the GVWR of your truck is what you have left over for passengers, cargo, the hitch hardware, fire wood, etc. and the pin weight of the Montana (maximum is 25% of the GTWR).

You have the right line of thinking for the CGVWR that @ 23,000 you have 7,360 (not 5,220) left over for the truck. Then you have to be careful that you don't have too much of the towable's weight at the rear axle (pin weight and all the gear in the truck bed). You could shift some of the weight into the cab which means the front axles carries more, but it will be a juggling act of shifting weight in parts of the truck and various parts of the trailer. Since a truck has so much capacity for a trailer tow, many of us will put a lot of items in the rear of the Montana to lighten the truck, but not at the expense of exceeding the weight at the trailer's axles.

I think your understanding is getting very close if you consider the hints I posted above.

When comparing trucks to what you currently have, factors like length of bed (Short or long), size of cab (Std, Super, Crew or Mega), wheel base length, axle differential ratio (the higher the ratio the better the capacity), larger tires and wheels AND higher load ratings can determine a GVWR. There is a good chance that the newer trucks you were looking at have reduced the 5th wheel tow capacity to improve the truck's capacity when towing.

You might ask yourself, why would my truck have such a high 5th wheel tow rating if I cannot put anything in the truck afterwards? There are trailers like livestock movers or toy haulers that carry a lot of weight, make the trailer heavier, and the proportions can be better maintained on the trailer's axles, and less on the pin (about 15% typical) and hence not need to carry so much by the TV. Montanas and the like are different in that the weight is carried towards the front.

BTW - the comment about a diesel being able to tow okay is not quite correct, however a diesel will definitely be better than a gas offering. For example, a Ford F-250 and a Ford F-450 offer the exact same diesel engine and trannies but they do not have the same tow capacities. There are many other factors to consider besides an engine and trans.

I hope this helps.

[CamillaMichael]

quote:Originally posted by UpinAK

Our understanding is GVWR for the 3400 is the sum of #12460 Shipping Weight, #3180 CC and #2140 Hitch (otherwise known as “pin weight”). That’s #17780. Again, our understanding is #17780 is the magic number that you will be towing and the number you need to look at when selecting your TV.

I’m relying on Trailerlife TV Rating pages. My 2002 GMC D/A SRW 5er tow capacity is #15,700. The 2006 3500 ExtCab SRW 4WD D/A reads #15,000.

Am I hearing that I SHOULD NOT include pin weight and that actually the 3400 GVWR is #15640 (#17780 minus the pin weight).??

The GCWR for my current rig is #23,000. If we subtract #17780 from 23K we end up with not having a truck, people, hitch and fluids that exceed #5220.

Is our understanding correct here?

Thanks!

The shipping weight INCLUDES the pin weight...as others have pointed out, the 3400 gvwr is approx 15,500 (the fifth wheel with a maximum load). All the numbers are important, and it is my belief you should aquire every bit of information you can about the weight capacities (each one: gvwr, gcwr, max axle loads, max tire capacity, and vehicle payload capacity...the latter is critical when determining if your vehicle can take the Montana's pin weight) of your truck and then you can determine if it can tow the Montana model you want. Also, if you are shopping for another TV, you would be wise to do the same "number" research on it...Trailer Life Magazine has had a number of letters from readers who had problems with their TVs overheating. These same readers were under the impression their TVs were "beafy" enough to handle the load, but found out otherwise. Just because a vehicle has this or that option, it does not necessarily add up to meet your towing needs. LOOK AT and UNDERSTAND the numbers for your specific TV! They are not all alike and each can hold surprises for the unwary shopper.

[BB_TX]

As Art said, 12,346 is the shipping, or empty, weight. And it has a cargo carrying capacity of 3,294 for a total of 15,640, if loaded to the max. Not really likely you will load it with 3,294 lbs of "stuff" so you will likely be something less than that.
The hitch weight just tells you how much of that total weight actually sits on your truck rather than on the tires. That is how you can determine how it fits in with the payload capacity of your truck.
With an empty hitch weight of 2,160, you will probably have a hitch weight of a few hundred pounds more than that when loaded for travel.
I know there are some here who have weighed their rigs, maybe they can "weigh in" on what those numbers were.

[CamillaMichael]

quote:Originally posted by BB_TX

As Art said, 12,346 is the shipping, or empty, weight. And it has a cargo carrying capacity of 3,294 for a total of 15,640, if loaded to the max. Not really likely you will load it with 3,294 lbs of "stuff" so you will likely be something less than that.
The hitch weight just tells you how much of that total weight actually sits on your truck rather than on the tires. That is how you can determine how it fits in with the payload capacity of your truck.
With an empty hitch weight of 2,160, you will probably have a hitch weight of a few hundred pounds more than that when loaded for travel.
I know there are some here who have weighed their rigs, maybe they can "weigh in" on what those numbers were.

Just prior to leaving on our current trip, weighed our rig (loaded for extended trip) and recorded 2,780 lb pin weight and total weight of 13,920 lbs.

[farmboy]

If you look on the outside left front of the 3400 there is a lable that gives a lot of info about the trailers weights, tires,rims,air pressures, vin number,and such. It is on all new trailers but maybe fadded on used ones. I always look at them when I and shopping for trailers, or just brousing at shows. There also might be a label in one of the cabinets that gives other weight info that you need to know. Happy shopping.

[TLightning]

quote:Originally posted by UpinAK

Our understanding is GVWR for the 3400 is the sum of #12460 Shipping Weight, #3180 CC and #2140 Hitch (otherwise known as “pin weight”). That’s #17780. Again, our understanding is #17780 is the magic number that you will be towing and the number you need to look at when selecting your TV.

-The RV's GVWR is on a sticker on the left front of the rig. The hitch weight will be different for each 5th wheel.

I’m relying on Trailerlife TV Rating pages. My 2002 GMC D/A SRW 5er tow capacity is #15,700. The 2006 3500 ExtCab SRW 4WD D/A reads #15,000.

-As previously stated...don't believe them.

Am I hearing that I SHOULD NOT include pin weight and that actually the 3400 GVWR is #15640 (#17780 minus the pin weight).??

-See the sticker noted above. When sitting by itself, the RV, as it sits...that weight is the GW. When attached to the truck, the pin weight, that is in the truck, becomes part of the truck's weight. That is the weight that over grosses a 2500.

The GCWR for my current rig is #23,000. If we subtract #17780 from 23K we end up with not having a truck, people, hitch and fluids that exceed #5220.

-If you have a GM 2500 diesel, your GCWR is 22,000, not 23,000.

Is our understanding correct here?

-No

Thanks!

[troutchasers]

Thank you one and all for the clarifications, information and patience. I'm much closer to understanding tow and truck weights than I was when I posted. Thanks!

IF I were to consider a new 1 ton Duramax would anyone have bookmarked good national auto trader sites I could begin to look over. My understanding is that the Duramx diesels underwent significant design and pollution control changes post mid 2007. The sweet spot seems to be the 2006 and early 2007 models as far as mileage and maintenance.

We might rethink the DRW issue given the fact we are leaning toward either the 3400RL or 3455SA. WE (notice how politely I use the plural pronoun) will be loading it up with washer/dryer, satellite, 2nd AC etc ect.

I honestly don't think I could get a crew cab DRW Duramax into my garaqe. But it does look like I might be in the market for a used 1 ton Duramax.

Thanks Again Gentlemen. Your feedback is greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Robert and Kerri

[TLightning]

Re the Duramax. The 2006 and 2007 Classic (that's what the early 07s are called) have the LBZ engine. When I got my truck, I wanted the latest model made that came out just prior to the new ones that arrived in 2007 with all the emission controls...that's the 07 Classic and LBZ.

[sreigle]

Keep in mind the GVWR but remember it's not the GVWR but the actual weight that you'll be towing. There are many towing what you want to tow with trucks similar to yours. I would suggest you peruse the signatures of various posters to get an idea what is being used. Good luck to you folks.

By the way, we are VERY heavily loaded and our 3400RL scales at 15,610 pounds. We know others who have put theirs on a scale and they're as much as a couple thousand pounds lighter.