How Our Montana Spoiled Our Trip to Newfoundland

[dsprik]

Brad, my extended warranty did not involve my dealership or Keystone. I do understand your point on holding Keystone (entire RV industry as a whole, actually) and the dealership accountable for what goes through their hands.

All parts of our RV are first purchased by the RV mfr at wholesale, then basically sold to us at retail. They make profit on every Dometic fridge, Suburban water heater, Apollo micro, etc that goes out their door. That wholesale purchase is the RV mfr's choice and if that item breaks/fails, they surely should not be pointing the finger at Dometic/Suburban/Apollo/etc.

If there is a problem then we should go after Keystone/Montana ONLY and let Keystone/Montana go after Dometic/Suburban/Apollo/etc. That should frankly be of no concern of ours. Keystone should not be telling us to contact any individual companies. Now I understand that things get done better if we do go straight to the item's mfr, but it sure lets the RV mfr off the hook.

If our stereo system fails in our new (or used) GM car under warranty, they wouldn't tell us to contact Panasonic, or whoever, to resolve the issue, and not to bother GM...

This is my view - maybe I am looking at it wrong, though...

[richfaa]

Brad your theory is perfect.. but as is sometimes the case theory and pratical application do not agree. The very reason these extended Warranties are in existance is that a bunch of folks were smart enough to understand that RV quailty was poor..would likey not improve and there was a bunch of folks who would buy protection to compensate for the manufacturers low quality. The Rv manufacturere is smart enough to understand that perhaps 3 or 4 of every 10 warranty issues get to the manufacturer for compensation so they have no reason to improve quality..As long as quality doesn ot hurt the bottom line....why do anything.. And of course we help the manufacturers correcting their mistakes at our expense....but.. this is the reality.So we spend money on extended warranties instead of holding the manufacturer responsible.....it is the easy way out.

[bsmeaton]

I think I actually agree with most, just hard to communicate it.

For every marketing scheme, there has to be a problem and a solution, even if only by perception. The solution needs to be profitable for at least 5 years or it is difficult to get the start up going. Here are some examples of marketing schemes that are equivalent in "scum" factor to the extended warranty:

• Identity theft protection - hahahahhahhaha (wow that one snuck right in there didn't it). Don't we already pay the government to provide protection?
• Virus protection software (I think Norton actually hired a team to invent the worm!)
• Umbrella Insurance Policies (How convenient for the next Joe that wants to sue me, he already knows how much he will get!)

The only thing these all have in common is that once you convince the masses that they are necessary, they actually become necessary and are a way of life.

I actually never forgave Cable TV for talking me into a monthly fee for something I was already getting for free! 30 years later I don't even think twice about paying $100 for TV, and network channels have been practically wiped off the map. The whole pretense was commercial free TV. Now the only commercial free channels are those I pay EVEN MORE FOR!!. It worked so well, now they want me to buy my radio stations by the month - hahahahahahaha, (fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on....)

I have been into RVs and Marine toys for my whole life, and nothing has changed for the worse. In fact, I almost think it may be better than before.

Dave - I totally agree, but I think Keystone does look at supplier choices closely (Al-Kober Axle change to Dexter 2004), (Dometic refrigerator to Norcold 2009), (Apollo to Sharp 2009), (Mission change to Goodyear 2008). The only problem, is it is all junk, so they have a hard time picking the "less" junk of the two. If they all put American Racing wheels and Goodyear G614 tires on rubber axles with real frames and quality appliances, they would all be...Teton! hahahahah

[richfaa]

Why listen to Music for free when you can pay a monthly fee to hear it.Paying 57.00 per month for 150 Directtv channels when you may only watch 10 of them. You can buy a sports package and watch every Sunday foot ball game which is impossible. Remember..there is a sucker born every minute and someone else around to make a profit from it.

[TLightning]

quote:Originally posted by SlickWillie

Who are you gonna hold responsible when one of the components built by someone else on that Chevy fails? Surely you wouldn't excuse GM if they put a Chinese POS tranny behind that Duramax? Why not hold Keystone to the same standard?

IMHO, that is an apples to oranges comparison. If my truck breaks, with the exception of the Allison, I don't know who they are, nor do I have access to the component manufacturers. With the Montana...my toilet was not working right, called Dometic, they sent me a kit; the individual room controller for the slides broke, called Lippert, they sent me a new one; refrigerator recall, called Dometic, they told me who to call to have it fixed. All incidents were fast, efficient and free.

I guess I could have gone through Keystone...but I've been doing it the easy way.

[meldelton]

Hello fellow Montana owners,

After starting this most interesting discussion, I feel compelled to reply for the second time. First, thanks to all who responded to my original historical account of our problems going to Newfoundland. Second, your suggestions, though sometimes conflicting, have given me considerable food for thought -- dealer vs. Camping World, extended warranty vs. non extended warranty and so forth.

After three trips to the western U. S. and one to Newfoundland, we are still excited about traveling as well as about the Montana products. Thus, we will continue traveling as we have done. Of course, we'll carefully compare Montana with other brands when we search for another fifth wheel trailer, keeping in mind as many of you have stated so well, that the products we have had problems with are from other suppliers.

Finally, I think this forum is a splendid place for sharing ideas, and I do want to continue checking in. If I had only known about it earlier (4 fifth wheels, three of them Montanas), I would have joined at the beginning. Oh, well, better to join now than now to have joined at all!

Dale and Diane Melton

[dsprik]

Welcome to our family, Dale! As you can see, we always don't agree on certain topics. However, we do have several things in common - other than Montana/Mountaineer ownership. We all agree that this is the the best place, bar none, for info on our Montanas, and that while we sometimes disagree, we are all fiercely loyal to each other in time of need.

I believe you will find the the help and info here will save you time, money and maybe more than a little pain.

Again, WELCOME and I am glad you were able to glean valuable info from this topic and hopefully others.

[SlickWillie]

quote:Originally posted by TLightning

IMHO, that is an apples to oranges comparison. If my truck breaks, with the exception of the Allison, I don't know who they are, nor do I have access to the component manufacturers. With the Montana...my toilet was not working right, called Dometic, they sent me a kit; the individual room controller for the slides broke, called Lippert, they sent me a new one; refrigerator recall, called Dometic, they told me who to call to have it fixed. All incidents were fast, efficient and free.

I guess I could have gone through Keystone...but I've been doing it the easy way.

I would generally agree that is how it works, both with GM and Keystone. However, many component manufacturers are known for the trucks; Eaton, Bosch, Bose, Allison and many more. Perhaps Keystone is just passing the buck?

[dsprik]

Dale, have you gotten a response from Keystone yet?

[jeffwilliams1954]

quote:Originally posted by Waynem

I don't see any "bashing" in the original post by Dale. I see a chronological detail of events that have taken some pleasure out of their "great American adventure." It is also stated that they want to keep their 3rd Montana 5th wheel. I see "venting," and anguish in their post. I really don't see any bashing. I would be very frustrated if all of those events happened to me on one trip.

Would it not be nice if the lemon law applied to RV 5th wheel.

There is a 'fedral lemon law' that will protect you even if your state won't. It's called The Magnuson Moss Warranty Act (sp). Here is a link to a law firm who handles these things. http://www.kahnandassociates.com/index.php

[meldelton]

Yes, I received a consoling response from Montana. It said basically that they regretted the inconvenience that we had experienced. However, nothing was suggested as to what I should do or what they could or would do. Frankly, I was a little disappointed, since I've had so many Montanas and have talked them up for such a long time.

Perhaps Keystone wants to see how many people respond to my post and then give me some direction. I was really hoping for more.

Dale

[indy roadrunner]

Dale, I am disappointed with that response. I have stayed out of this as I am just a weekend camper and we have not experienced a lot of problems others have however as a result of this forum I have headed off a lot of the problems others have experienced. I think there is good and bad in anything man made. A friend of mine has a Caddy and he has had it in the shop more than my little Honda Civic. But that is another story. I have learned alot from some of the replies to this topic and has changed my opinon on some things. I guess I still hold the OEM responsible for the product supplied to Keystone, but I hold Keystone responsible for not holding the OEM to higher standards based on complaints. But then on the other hand Keystone is not the only one using the same suppliers so I guess what I am trying to say is there seems to be something lacking with all the RV Manufacturers.

[dsprik]

Dale, I agree with Indy. I would re-word my statement/request by forcing Keystone to be on a line item "yes" or "no" position. Ask them specifically on certain items if they will fix and/or replace these items. Make them have to give you a yes or no.

[Dean A Van Peursem]

Dale,

Unfortunately, the response or lack of response you received from Montana was as expected. Unless we as Montana owners decide to get together and hold their feet to the fire, they just don't have to and won't. However, I don't expect that to happen in the near future. Divided we fail and we pay and pay and pay.... The only ray of hope I see at the moment is: there is a significant reduction in new buyers right now due to economic conditions and some bright employee at Montana might suggest maybe we ought to build them a little better and shudder at the thought that someone in management might listen. But it all may be a "Fig Newton" of my imagination. :-)

I heard an interesting concept from a 40's age person recently that addresses the next generation's problem with not having adequate assets to retire. The current solution is to just steal it from the previous generation that does have enough assets. Maybe Montana is part of their generation. :-)

[Dean A Van Peursem]

BTW, If we banded together and somehow caused all RV manaufacturers to provide an adequate and appropriate 5 year warranty rather than a 1 year warranty, I suspect subsequent RV quality would improve dramatically. Might be a real opportunity for a quality RV manufacturer to establish an "unfair competitive edge!" That probably would put the RV industry in a state of panic for awhile. Who knows, in tough economic times there may be a manufacturer with some guts to upset the competitive environment. Better to get them sold and pay a few % extra in warranty costs than having them set at the factory or dealer lots unsold. Now there is a real sales incentive!. I like my idea so much I think I'll patent it! :-) I'm a legend in my own mind! :-)

[meldelton]

I'm ready to join. And I believe that the organization should emphasize the strong quality aspects of Montana as well as push for higher quality on the weaker aspects, such as the length of warranties. If its purpose is balanced, I'd be happy to participate!

[Snownyet]

If the voting with our pocketbooks were to work and get the RV industry to step it up, whos going to foot the bill? Would you rather have the OPTION to pay $1500 for an extended warranty or be forced to pay a hypothetical $3k in the sticker price for the built in extended warranty and higher quality unit that probably wont look or perform one bit different and will still be prone to problems? Theres too many pieces and systems to eliminate the threat of issues. The warranty wont fix the inconvienience. We've bought the extended service contract on out last 2 5th wheels and never used either, 2 couples we camp with have had the same experience so whos the dummys? EVERY industry cuts costs till it effects business then they adjust to achieve acceptable levels of customer satisfaction, it may be staffing levels, material quality or a number of other issues that provide the cost savings, but nonetheless it all has an effect on the bottom line and eventually shows is the product delivered. Thats the problem with public companies and shareholders demanding larger margins, we as a society have created this monster and we can find examples of it everywhere. You know the famous saying thats been used for decades "They dont make em like they used to" You're surrounded by it folks,everywhere you look. Its too late and its our own fault.

[richfaa]

The RV industry is far different than any other industry in terms of quality and workmanship. There is also the effort to build a rv that can be towed by say a 3/4 1 ton truck be within the weight specifications and be affordable. I have alway said that if the Montana was built to my standards of excellence it would weigh @30K and cost @ $175.000. The quality is what it is for many reasons one of them being as many of us point out, we accept it in the RV industry where we would not accept it any where else. We have toured the Montana plant as well as many others. IMO if Montana raised the price on the 3400 by say 1K and improved on many of the common failures we have, Tires, shackles,Frame failures, etc ..it would be a much better product but would they be competitive in a very competitive industry. The solution to the problem is not as easy as we make it out to be.The present economic condition may be the make or break for Keystone/Montana and others in that price range. Montana is in the upper price level and these are luxuries. MY guess is that Montana sales are way down as well as other similar brands.Note what is happening in the auto industry in responce to low sales. I expect to see the same in the RV industry. IMO the days are numbered for my big 1 ton Ford and huge 3400. Oh people will always RV you say...sure.. just like people will always have trucks..but not fuel guzzling SUV's and 1 ton Fords.

[Dean A Van Peursem]

It is interesting how the responses can be so different even with such a common issue. I would like to ask a hypothetical question: If you received a letter from an Attorney's office asking if you would like to be put on the list of recipients of any proceeds from a class action law suit against Montana concerning quality issues, would you sign up? Even at no risk and/or cost. Of course you would. So the real issue is I guess is we would just rather complain but not spend any money to attempt to get these problems resolved in that manner. Yet, some will spend $1000 to $1500 extra to protect themselves against some, but not all, of the expenses, due to defective product, they might incur. So Montana and Montana dealers are happy as they are getting paid to repair these issues, the insurance company is happy since they must be making a profit and the RV consumer is happy since they have insurance. What is wrong with this picture?

However, we RV consumers go through significant expenses and agony even if we have extended warranties. I don't think the Extended Warranty companies are paying for the expenses of disrupted, away from home stays or the expenses to get the Montana to the closest authorized dealer. That IMHO is just a big an issue and hassle as getting the problem fixed. I'd also like to point out that if Montana was building these units with better quality workmanship and parts the cost doesn't necessarily have to go up. In fact it probably could go down if we as consumers really recognize what our total costs are to deal with these quality issues after the fact. Many of us assume, to get higher quality workmanship, parts and components that we must pay more. That isn't necessarily true. Building the product right the first time is the lowest cost possible product for the consumer. Not only has Montana accepted poor quality workmanship in some cases they have also accepted lower quality components because we consumers accept it. Another total conflict of good common sense to me this. Why go to the expense of building an aluminum frame 5th wheel to save on weight and then fill it with the most god awful heavy furniture they can find? The two recliners, sofa bed and four kitchen chairs weigh at least twice what they should and need to. Someone at Montana isn't using their head. Montana is quite aware of who their customers are and they know that we will never unite in an effort to improve the situation. So all is status quo. Things haven't changed and never will because we owners haven't forced it.

[richfaa]

A Realtor friend of our once told us that in order to better sell a home replace your front door with a very expensive door as that is the first thing a buyer will see when they look at the house. Same with a RV.. hey nice table & chairs, nice big ole TV's. the sofa and recliners look nice...never mind the poor quality and workmanship on the rest of the unit. Good salesmanship.Always wondered about being weight conscious then put this anchor of a Zenith Tv set in the front room?? You are correct Dean but we are beating a dead horse..