Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Montana Owners Club - Keystone Montana 5th Wheel Forum > GENERAL DISCUSSIONS > Tow Vehicles & Towing
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-20-2008, 04:34 PM   #1
rogue
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Merlin
Posts: 668
M.O.C. #7368
Diesel to Propane?

Since I noticed that Propane has been pretty stable while Diesel has gone up, I was thinking can you convert Diesel to Propane. Not that I would do it because of the 100/5year warranty.

Searching the web there I found 2 different types.

1) remove the head and replace the glow plugs with spark plugs and do some work on the cylinders (like converting from Diesel to Gas).
2) adding Propane to burn the Diesel more throughly. Here you still need to buy Diesel.

Around here propane is $2.89 Diesel $4.45

Anyone know any other conversion?

Inquiring minds want to know.
Bob
 
rogue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2008, 04:45 AM   #2
ggranch
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Kingsville
Posts: 473
M.O.C. #6588
Don't know any other conversions, but know that propane only has about 1/2 the power of gasoline (not diesel). The tankers that deliver our propane use twice the gallons of propane over thier gasoline mates. That would make your fuel costs $5.78 rather than $4.45 for the same mileage. Not a good trade-off. Bob
ggranch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2008, 08:00 AM   #3
MacDR50
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: St Johns
Posts: 434
M.O.C. #7691
Diesel engines (compression ignition) cannot be directly converted to propane as they do not create enough heat to ignite the propane. Propane injection systems claim to add both HP and give you better mileage to a gallon of diesel. I have not been able to find a reliable report on these claims. Obviously adding propane gives the cylinder a increased charge of fuel and therefore less diesel is needed to create the same output of power. If anyone finds an independent report, I would like to see it.

I wouldn't mind checking out a gas conversion to propane. There are still a few good V10 and 8.1 gassers out there that might be candidates for modification to propane or natural gas.
MacDR50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2008, 09:08 AM   #4
c5racer
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Hurricane
Posts: 503
M.O.C. #444
In Utah CNG sells for 62 cents a gallon.
c5racer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2008, 02:59 PM   #5
MacDR50
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: St Johns
Posts: 434
M.O.C. #7691
Here is a government link for NG vehicle conversions.

http://www.ngvontario.com/own_options.html
MacDR50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2008, 04:54 PM   #6
dsprik
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fort Myers
Posts: 5,933
M.O.C. #4282
Roger, I love the fact the graphic example they use is an extended cab pickup. Now, I REALLY would have gotten excited if they would have drawn a fifth wheel hooked up to that truck.
Did someone mention, though, that the power is just not there with this system?
dsprik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2008, 08:43 PM   #7
HamRad
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bakersfield
Posts: 5,316
M.O.C. #15
Regarding CNG. I took this from the FAQ on the above provided link.

Quote from the CNG link.
How well do Natural Gas fueled vehicles perform compared to gasoline-powered vehicles?
Natural Gas has a higher-octane level rating (130) than either gasoline or propane which translates into greater performance and higher fuel efficiency, especially when matched to a dedicated NG-fuelled vehicle . The higher the fuels' octane rating, the greater its efficiency. Since Natural Gas is in a gaseous form, it does not need to be vapourized for combustion and mixes directly with intake air. In cold weather, Natural Gas actually starts better than a gasoline or propane vehicle

Dave it sounds like CNG actually has more power than gasoline. And the price certainly is right. Where to fill up might be a problem. But I do know there are a few CNG stations around. We have many of our buses running on the stuff.

Sounds like there is an ample supply too.

HamRad
HamRad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2008, 03:57 AM   #8
dsprik
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fort Myers
Posts: 5,933
M.O.C. #4282
Thanks for the info, Dennis. Sounds like the potential for heavy hauling (RVs) may be there. Like you said, the availability of filling stations - right now - could be a problem. Did I also understand correctly that the US has more natural gas reserves than oil reserves? Someone needs to clarify that for me. I remember hearing something to that effect, I thought.
dsprik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2008, 04:18 PM   #9
dieselguy
Montana Master
 
dieselguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Haysville
Posts: 4,261
M.O.C. #3085
Bear in mind that my experience is about 5 years old, but .... if you're used to raw rear wheel horsepower of a diesel, you'll be SEVERELY disappointed with a propane crossover gasser. As mentioned above ... a diesel won't run exclusively on propane.
dieselguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2008, 04:54 PM   #10
FLSTS03
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Montgomery
Posts: 279
M.O.C. #8231
Rather than a complete conversion, consider a propane or water/meth injection system. From what I've heard propane assist better to improve milage yet cost more than windshield cleaner fluid(used for water/meth injection). Have a friend and fellow MOCer who is scheduled to put his 06 duramax in the shop next week for water/meth. see www.snowperformance.net

Steve
FLSTS03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2008, 06:59 PM   #11
dsprik
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fort Myers
Posts: 5,933
M.O.C. #4282
Are we mixing up propane with compressed natural gas? Maybe we are talking about two different fuels and systems?
dsprik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2008, 10:09 AM   #12
MacDR50
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: St Johns
Posts: 434
M.O.C. #7691
Here is another informative link. From it - While both propane and natural gas have higher octane ratings than gasoline, litre for litre they have less energy as they are less dense. This apparently can be offset by increasing the compression ratio of the engine by replacing the pistons and/or the heads depending on engine design.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Energy_content

This company sells a kit for diesels.
http://www.omnitekcorp.com/altfuel.htm

MacDR50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2008, 12:12 PM   #13
c5racer
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Hurricane
Posts: 503
M.O.C. #444
You can also buy a CNG Honda Civic right off the showroom floor from your Honda dealer. There is also a CNG class in drag racing.
c5racer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2008, 12:48 PM   #14
HamRad
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bakersfield
Posts: 5,316
M.O.C. #15
c5racer

How many CNG filling stations do you think there are? Is the CNG a regional thing or something we might find across the country?

Of course the minute the thing becomes popular the price will skyrocket! Then we'll be right back where we started.

Thanks,

HamRad
HamRad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2008, 01:28 PM   #15
MacDR50
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: St Johns
Posts: 434
M.O.C. #7691
CNG kits for gasoline engines allow you to switch back and forth. You could use CNG or propane for those long straight stretches and switch to gas for the hills. We have no CNG stations in this province but with significant offshore reserves this may change. BTW I read that 97% of CNG used in the USA comes from NA sources.
MacDR50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2008, 08:29 PM   #16
c5racer
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Hurricane
Posts: 503
M.O.C. #444
Don't know how many places to fuel, but this site will give you a way to check anywhere in the USA. CA has about 200 fueling stations.
http://afdcmap2.nrel.gov/locator/
If you have natural gas at your home, you can have a fueling station installed in your garage.
c5racer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2008, 04:04 AM   #17
Dennis and Carol
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Livingston
Posts: 177
M.O.C. #53
Back in the "Dark Ages" the (50's) my father was the superintendent of the power plant in a small town in eastern Kansas. The generators were powered by dual/fuel engines. During most of the time they were run on natural gas, but when demand for gas increased, they were switched over to run on diesel. I can not remember just how this was accomplished, but it only took a few minutes and seemed to be very easy to do. These were huge motors which supplied power to a town of 3,000. Makes you wander why this technology is not available today.
Dennis and Carol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2008, 08:17 AM   #18
ggranch
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Kingsville
Posts: 473
M.O.C. #6588
In answer to dsprik, yes we are. Liquid Propane (LP) is very different from Compressed Natural Gas(CNG). LP is derived from the manufacture of gasoline and diesel, CNG is as its name inplies, a natural gas that is compressed for storage and use. LP is stored in its liquid state and used in its gaseous state.

Bob
ggranch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2008, 09:46 AM   #19
MacDR50
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: St Johns
Posts: 434
M.O.C. #7691
Some more information. The company site I took this from lists a kit for both the 8.1 and V10 Triton dual fuel.

Q: Why should I convert my vehicle or equipment to run on an alternative fuel?
A: There are a number of GOOD reasons to convert to an alternative fuel such as:
- Reduced fuel costs.
- Reduction in environmentally damaging emissions.
- Reduced maintenance costs.
- Reduced dependence on foreign oil.

Q: Are LPG (Liquefied Petroleum Gas) and CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) the same fuel?
A: LPG and CNG are quite different fuels, LNG is a high-pressure gaseous fuel that always stays in
gaseous form. LPG is a low-pressure fuel which is stored as a liquid. Above a certain
temperature LPG becomes a vapor fuel which the engine then runs on.CNG is compressed to a
high pressure while LPG is stored at a much lower pressure.

Q: What' is a "Fumigated/Aspirated/Pneumatic or Carbureted" system as opposed to an "Injection
System"?
A: The terms "Fumigated/Aspirated/Pneumatic or Carbureted" are widely mis-used but for simplicity
sake, the "Fumigated/Aspirated/Pneumatic or Carbureted" type systems rely on vacuum created
by the rushing intake air (typically through some sort of venturi) such as a mixer or carburetor to
draw the fuel into the air stream, "Fuel Injection" type systems inject PRESSURIZED fuel into the
air stream. The "Fuel Injector" is a nozzle or valve (a fuel metering device) independent of air flow,
the power to inject the fuel comes from further back in the fuel supply.

Q: How many vehicles run on LPG?
A: There are over 9,000,000 vehicle world wide and approx. 400,000 in the USA and Canada.

Q: Is LPG safer than gasoline?
A: Like gasoline LPG is flammable, but has a much narrower range of flammability. LPG has a
much higher ignition temperature of 920-1020 degrees vs. 80-300 degrees for gasoline. LPG
will only burn with an air-fuel ratio of between 2.2% and 9.6% and will rapidly dissipate beyond
its flammability range in the open atmosphere, making ignition unlikely.LPG tanks are tested
to a minimum 4 times normal operating pressures and are 20 times more puncture resistant
than gasoline tanks.

Q: Is CNG safe?
A: Natural gas has one of the safest records of any transportation fuel. There are two primary
reasons: the physical properties of natural gas (natural gas is lighter than air!), and the
structural integrity of the natural gas vehicle storage system.

Q: LPG or CNG, which should I choose?
A: Both are great choices BUT.... LPG is the fuel of choice if greater vehicle range is required. LPG
is stored as a liquid fuel so has a greater density than CNG, providing much more range. LPG
is a low-pressure fuel so conversion costs are usually less.
CNG is stored as a high pressure gaseous fuel and will provide limited range, so if you are
close to a refueling center (as many delivery fleets are) CNG is a good choice even with higher
conversion costs because the fuel itself is very economical.

Q: What is the difference in "energy content" in CNG and LPG as compared to gasoline?
A: CNG has 64% of the energy in gasoline, LPG has 73%, of the energy in gasoline.

Q: What kind of mileage can I expect from LPG or CNG.
A; Typically with a pneumatic LPG system you will see a reduction in mileage of from 6~13%,
SVIS LPG applications can vary from almost nothing to 10%. With CNG you will typically
loose about 15~25% of the mileage you got on gasoline.

Q: How about power loss?
A: You will typically notice very little if any power loss on LPG, some users report a power gain.
On CNG you may experience a loss of 15-25%.
Q: Will LPG or CNG hurt my engine?
A: NO! In fact being on the light end of the hydrocarbon scale, there is almost no carbon in these
fuels. Carbon is what turns your engine oil black! One big benefit of LPG and CNG is your oil
will stay cleaner and requires less frequent changes, saving your time, money, oil and oil filters!
LPG and CNG go into your engine as a vapor, there is no "raw" fuel entering the cylinders which
washes the lubricating oil off the cylinder walls so the piston rings stay better lubricated resulting
in many LPG and LNG fueled engines lasting up to THREE TIMES LONGER than the same
engine on gasoline! LPG and CNG should cause no problems with valves in any engine
designed to run on unleaded fuel. You can burn a valve or damage a valve seat just as easily on
a poorly set up gasoline engine as with a poorly set up LPG or CNG system.

Q: How much maintenance will my LPG or CNG system require?
A: Thats' one of the great features about these kits, once installed and tuned it requires no
maintenance other than particulate filter changes for years to come. At some point in the future
(normally 10-15 years) you may want to change the diaphrams and gaskets to ensure "like-new"
performance and fuel economy.

Q: Are LPG and CNG harmful to the environment?
A: NO. as approved, alternative clean fuels listed in the Clean Air Act and the National Energy
Policy. LPG and CNG are some of the cleanest burning of all alternative fuels. LPG is is non-toxic
and is not harmful to soil or water. Tests conducted by the U.S. Environmental Agency show that
LPG and CNG vehicles produce 30-90% less carbon monoxide than gasoline engines and
about 50% fewer toxins and other smog producing emissions. Ever wonder why almost all
indoor use equipment from forklifts to the Zambonis' at your local ice rink run on LPG indoors?,
now you know why.

Q: Are all LPG and CNG conversion kits the same?
A: Absolutely not. There are many levels of technology and many more levels of quality in
component parts. Different countries manufacture their products to different standards and
safety codes. Cheap basic conversion kits obviously do not include the highest quality parts and
in most cases do not include all the parts required for the PROPER installation of the kit.
Installers are forced to "make up" or modify parts that didn't come with the basic kit. This can
lead to unsafe installations, poor performance and higher costs for the installation due to time
spent "making" parts that didn't come with the basic kit. In many cases these basic kits end up
costing more than a complete kit! Some basic kits on the market today are still using the same
component parts and technology from the 1960's when they were designed!
Many of these cheap basic kits will not allow the vehicle or piece of equipment to run properly,
so you lose fuel economy and clean emissions. A "cheap" kit can cost you more in lost fuel
economy and power in a few months than a premium system would have cost in the first place!

Q: Where does LPG come from?
A: Approximately 88% of LPG in Canada and the USA come from our own sources. Of this, 70%
comes from processing natural gas. The USA, Canada and Mexico have extensive natural gas
reserves. LPG is an odorless, non-toxic product that is produced as a byproduct of in the oil
refining process. LPG is the USA is the third largest motor fuel and has been fueling
automobiles, trucks and industrial equipment since 1913!

Q: Is refueling difficult with LPG?
A: No, not at all, refueling is quick and simple. LPG's pumping rate, 10-12 gallons/38-45 liters per
minute, is comparable to that of gasoline. To refuel a simple screw-on connection is used, so
there is no worry about "spilled fuel" as the delivery system is "sealed". If you are refueling a very
large tank or multiple vehicle, gloves are sometimes worn as the connections can become
quite cold due to the fuel flow.

Q: What are the "mechanics of a conversion"?
A: With a few modifications to the engine, virtually any gasoline engine can be converted to run on
LPG. Vehicles can be equipped to operate solely on LPG (dedicated conversion) or to switch
between LPG and gasoline (dual-fuel conversion). The "under hood" components of the LPG
system when correctly installed are almost indistinguishable from the factory components
under the hood.
LPG tanks fit compactly into car trunks, or in some cases where the gasoline tank has been
removed, the tank(s) can be mounted where the gasoline tanks were previously. In trucks and
Vans, LPG tanks can be installed inside the cargo bed or under the vehicle.

LPG is stored as a liquid, usually in one or two tanks, at a pressures dependent upon ambient
air temperature (e.g. at 70º F, the pressure of LPG would be 127 psi; at 100º F, the pressure
would be 196 psi). In an LPG engine, the liquid travels from the tank to a vapourizer/pressure
regulator (also called a converter), which converts the liquefied LPG into a gaseous form.
From the converter, the vapour goes to an air/fuel mixing device where it is is mixed with filtered
intake air before being fed to the engine on demand, or in the case of sequential injection LPG
systems the fuel is fed directly into the intake manifold via fuel injectors.

A complete conversion system includes ALL the "under-hood" components, the fuel controller,
valves, actuators, brackets, hoses, all hardware, wiring and electronics and any software
needed to convert the vehicle to LPG operation.

Q: What are "open loop and closed loop"systems?
A: An "open loop" system does not contain control electronics and no feedback is provided to the
controller on how well it is performing. The controller uses prior calibration to determine what
to do.
A "closed loop" system incorporates electronic sensor(s) that provide continuous feedback to
the fuel controller on how well it is performing, thus the "closing the feedback loop". "Closed
loop" conversions are generally more efficient (and more expensive) than "open loop" systems.
MacDR50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2008, 12:03 PM   #20
rogue
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Merlin
Posts: 668
M.O.C. #7368
Roger, Thanks for posting that in-dept Q&A.
Bob
rogue is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
No more diesel stiles watson Member News 9 11-22-2012 02:34 AM
Ford diesel Trucks verses GMC diesel Trucks greenenergy Tow Vehicles & Towing 38 11-13-2009 09:14 AM
Diesel Add Ons randye Tow Vehicles & Towing 15 06-16-2007 11:50 AM
V-10 vs Diesel Montana_2020 Tow Vehicles & Towing 12 11-11-2005 10:53 AM
Diesel Prices**** See Florida Diesel Fuel Prices Montana_1167 General Discussions about our Montanas 0 03-11-2004 11:48 AM

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Montana RV, Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.