Cold Effecting Propane Heating

[masterdrago]

Had some oddness with LP when it was 5° on Tuesday morning. Tank iced heavily with tank temperature of 11°. Furnace had very low output - ~13° rise (57 to 69). Took a look at the temp/press tables for propane and discovered that bottle pressure was ~32#. Would the two stage auto switch regulator, which was showing red (empty) even though tank was half full (based of tank ice line), not be able to pass gas at 11" wc from a 30psi supply? Been running the fireplace and a ceramic heater plugged into washer wall outlet for extra heat while on generator power. Not enough juice to bring up the microwave without killing fireplace - trip breaker on genny.

[Cat320]

The colder it gets, your volume of propane drops and so does the pressure.

[Daryles]

Maybe lay a battery heater pad over the regulator and tank?

I've read of people putting drop lights next to the regulator/tanks to thaw/warm them.
I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND THAT. PROPANE IS FLAMABLE.
The regulators have a small vent valve on them. They do occasionally vent.

Maybe someone with real propane qualifications/experience can comment?

[masterdrago]

Originally Posted by Cat320

The colder it gets, your volume of propane drops and so does the pressure.

Correct. That the table I referred too - http://virtualmark.net/wx/pressure.htm
I just thought that at even 30psi, that would be sufficient to regulate out to the 11" of water column that the furnace required. I know that when the bottle volume and pressure get low, the regulator thinks it is empty and switches to the reserve bottle. Just did not know that the burner efficiency would get so low, the heating capacity would be almost non-existent.

[masterdrago]

Originally Posted by Daryles

Maybe lay a battery heater pad over the regulator and tank?

I've read of people putting drop lights next to the regulator/tanks to thaw/warm them.
I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND THAT. PROPANE IS FLAMABLE.
The regulators have a small vent valve on them. They do occasionally vent.

Maybe someone with real propane qualifications/experience can comment?

I tried wrapping an electric heating pad around one of the tanks but DW had little kittens and insisted I take her back heater off the tank. I also read that when the pressure/temperature of the bottle gets to low that liquid can enter the regulator and freeze it up. I took a hair dryer on low to it. It also seemed to help to cycle the heater off for a bit. Today, it is not so cold (27°) but I'm down to using grill tanks that are near empty (maybe 5#, 1/4 full).

[BB_TX]

I don't really understand the temp/pressure and availability relationship either. But you would think that 30 psi supply would be more than adequate to give 11" water column (which is less than 0.4 psi). After all, the infamous red regulator drops the line pressure from the second tank to 30 psi.

But during our cold spell this week (-4 F one morning) I brought in my Mr. Buddy propane heater from the garage and it would not light until I warmed up the small propane bottle.

[masterdrago]

Another interesting chart I discovered indicates that varying mixtures of propane/butane effect things. The normal assumption is that what is in the bottle is 100% propane. How would one know for sure without measuring bottle pressure and temperature. My bottle temp is currently 14.4°F using the Fluke IR thermometer. This translates to a bottle pressure of ~36psi if 100% propane. I'll measure the output side of the Marshall Auto Changeover Regulator later.

[DadsHemi]

Propane will boil off gas as low as 32 degrees for optimum use, below that it will boil off less gas from the liquid the lower the temps go, at -10 here in NW Arkansas on Sunday/Monday I was only able to use 2/3s of our 30lb tanks with when full is 6.8 gallons so about 4.5 gallons was used at this temp. Butane has a boil off low of 34 degrees.

[Mikendebbie]

Jimmy crickets - I feel like I’m back in 10th grade in Mr Tedders physics class.
When you guys come up with an answer to “What the hell do I do now” - please post an answer in simple English for us slower students in the back of the class. I am amazed at the knowledge here.

[DadsHemi]

Lol....there are heated propane tank blankets that you can buy to keep the tank from freezing and you will be able to use almost all of your propane. They are pricey at 160 bucks per tank but when you need them they are well worth it.

[Mikendebbie]

Heated blankets for the propane tanks - fantastic!
Do they need electricity to work? I think all these products that need electricity to work are purposely designed to not be used in TX! We have no electricity! There you go acting like it’s 2021 and everybody here has conveniences like electricity, water and internet.

The snowbirds have had it wrong all these years...winter should be spent in Indiana or Illinois where they have luxuries like water and electricity - not in Texas! I am kidding somewhat but our power and water have been off for 30 hours THIS TIME! We are hoping to beat our personal best of 37 hours from last Thursday-Friday.

I am 65 yrs old East Tx native and I have never experienced anything like this. I have seen plenty of pine trees ice up and crack and destroy electrical lines - but the power was always back on in time to watch Batman at 6:00 on the TV station out of Shreveport.

[mlh]

I am 65 yrs old East Tx native and I have never experienced anything like this. I have seen plenty of pine trees ice up and crack and destroy electrical lines - but the power was always back on in time to watch Batman at 6:00 on the TV station out of Shreveport.


There is something that I have been wondering about. Are the heating systems in people’s homes equipped to handle temperatures likely we have been seeing. My heating system would probably be good for a little past zero but if it got down to say -20 I would haft to cut on the fireplace gas logs.
Lynwood

[AZ Traveler]

Mike,

Time to fire up the genny.

[Mikendebbie]

I am in the S&B currently. We have a fireplace and plenty of split oak. It is a cozy 58* in the living room by the fireplace. It is 49* in the bathroom on the north side of the house. Our water will drip from each faucet, so I believe we have no frozen lines. We have nothing more water supply than drips. A friend nearby has been without power or water for 50 hours and it it 37* in her living room.

We have it great compared to some folks on this forum who are in their RVs. I wish my Dad was still alive and I could ask him what did single mom Grandma Mason do to keep 5 kids warm on a cold night like this in February 1932.

6:45 pm - power popped back on, couple of flickers, still on. Hope others in the local RV parks are as lucky!

[DadsHemi]

Originally Posted by Mikendebbie

Heated blankets for the propane tanks - fantastic!
Do they need electricity to work? I think all these products that need electricity to work are purposely designed to not be used in TX! We have no electricity! There you go acting like it’s 2021 and everybody here has conveniences like electricity, water and internet.

The snowbirds have had it wrong all these years...winter should be spent in Indiana or Illinois where they have luxuries like water and electricity - not in Texas! I am kidding somewhat but our power and water have been off for 30 hours THIS TIME! We are hoping to beat our personal best of 37 hours from last Thursday-Friday.

I am 65 yrs old East Tx native and I have never experienced anything like this. I have seen plenty of pine trees ice up and crack and destroy electrical lines - but the power was always back on in time to watch Batman at 6:00 on the TV station out of Shreveport.

Unfortunately yes they do need power, Norther Tool has them for 139 bucks, I just ordered two of them. They are 120w and will heat to 90 degrees.

We have a 3500 inverter generator and I’ll gladly sacrifice our electric fire place to run those blankets, we can run the gas heat, fire place, coffee pot and 350 watts of halogen lights to keep the RV park hydrant from freezing. You just have to do energy management for essential’s.

[kencare]

Try putting a heat lamp near the propane tank to help it vaporize. People in the country in their SB would place a heat lamp under the 500/1000 gallon tanks in the extreme cold. Some would also place straw bales around the base of the tank. Seemed to help when the furnace had to work more often and longer in the extreme cold temps.

[masterdrago]

Originally Posted by mlh

I am 65 yrs old East Tx native and I have never experienced anything like this. I have seen plenty of pine trees ice up and crack and destroy electrical lines - but the power was always back on in time to watch Batman at 6:00 on the TV station out of Shreveport.


There is something that I have been wondering about. Are the heating systems in people’s homes equipped to handle temperatures likely we have been seeing. My heating system would probably be good for a little past zero but if it got down to say -20 I would haft to cut on the fireplace gas logs.
Lynwood

Our S&B has a 5 element electric furnace. 5KW each. Three are set up on one set of sequencers for normal use and that has always done the job in our just under 2,000sq ft home in SE Texas. The other two elements are on an aux sequencer and if the thermostat is set up correctly, if the temp in home continues to fall after lighting up the first 3 elements, it's supposed to light the other two. I replaced the wall thermostat a few years ago and did not wire up the aux sequencers. Over the last week, I've simply supplemented the home heating with a pair of 1,500 watt ceramic portable heaters. When we had power

[masterdrago]

Originally Posted by DadsHemi

Unfortunately yes they do need power, Norther Tool has them for 139 bucks, I just ordered two of them. They are 120w and will heat to 90 degrees.

We have a 3500 inverter generator and I’ll gladly sacrifice our electric fire place to run those blankets, we can run the gas heat, fire place, coffee pot and 350 watts of halogen lights to keep the RV park hydrant from freezing. You just have to do energy management for essential’s.

I attempted to use DWs electric back heater pad. Wrapped the LP tank in plastic bag, then the pad, then some aluminized Mylar bubble pack insulation. When DW saw what I had done, she wanted her back warmer pad back! So a no-go. The pad is 40 watts spread over a 17x33 area. I think they are NOT designed to get wet so need protection. ~$30@ AMZN.



We're okay now as the temp has come up to 20°, full power in S&B and refilled both 30g tanks yesterday at the only place that had propane - the Holiday World RV dealer 3 miles east of us @$4.10/gl!! Love's truck stop now has their LP back in @$3.29/gl. The fill station in New Waverly was out but their price was $2.38/gl. None of the Blue Rhino dealers have any remaining but should get resupply soon since I've used the grill tanks (20g) as backup.