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Old 07-10-2007, 04:35 PM   #21
mallardjusted
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Steve and Brenda - "Are not the ads for the 2008 F250 stating that they can haul 3000 pounds in their beds? That make them a ton and a half truck and yet another weight class of tow vehicle?"

Most of the F-250 2WD versions are over 3000lbs, so that is true. Most of the 4x4 specs are in the 2280 to 2880 lb range.

I'm not sure where they came up with the correlation between a 3/4 or 1 ton vs actual payload ??? Strange .....


 
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Old 07-10-2007, 06:04 PM   #22
Wrenchtraveller
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The names 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton, and 1 ton are 50 years old and were from an era when the pickups had a 1000 pound, 1500 pound or 2000 pound payload. Payloads have increased but the names stayed the same. Even when I bought my 1975 F250 brand new and it was an 8100 pound GVWR. That truck only weighed around 4800 pounds so it still had a 3300 pound payload. Remember payload is the GVWR of your truck minus it's empty weight and a Fifth wheel's pin weight is payload.
I do agree that Single Rear Wheel 1 tons are very close to SRW 3/4 tons and if they have the same tires, one is as capable as the other. This does not change the fact that the larger Montanas might be better off pulled by a dually as the pin weight and other cargo can be over the axle ratings of a SRW pickup.
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Old 07-10-2007, 06:19 PM   #23
Bob Pasternak
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Bert should take a lesson from the bumble bees. Aerodynamically, they can't fly 'cause some "experts" said the 'wing loading' was too great. Fortunately, the bees never read that dissertation so they fly anyhow. I spent several months driving trucks at Bosch Automotive Proving Grounds at New Carlisle, IN. We ran most vehicles aroung the durability test track with about a 40% overload. It was called "Accellerated mileage accumulation." The track was 2.5 miles around and I drove around 100 miles a night on it. 100 miles on that track was the equivalent of 10,000 miles in real life. I'd not worry about being being 15 or 20% over what the sticker says on ANY diesel 3/4 or 1 ton.
http://www.bosch.de/start/media/news...ng_grounds.wmv
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Old 07-10-2007, 08:08 PM   #24
Dave Nowlin
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Then there is the other element not mentioned. Some of us aren't full-timers and still work. For some of us our truck is not only used for towing but is our personal vehicle. We may even travel some in it in our jobs. Sometimes it really doesn't make sense to drive a dually when our truck is used for other purposes. The one thing my professional truck driving son keeps reminding me of is it's not necessarily how much weight can you pull satisfactorily. It's how much weight can you stop satisfactorily. For some reason that doesn't seem to get mentioned much.
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Old 07-11-2007, 02:46 AM   #25
Wrenchtraveller
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Dave, that is an excellent point and I believe the braking is covered by the combined rating which for both 3/4 ton and 1 ton trucks is usually the same with most now being 23000 pounds.
In fact this is what confuses so many people. Both 3/4 and 1 ton trucks have the same combined rating and can both pull equally heavy bumper pull trailers. It is the pin weight of a Fifth wheel that requires a heavier rear axle and sometimes a dually.
In 2005 Ford really bumped up the payloads of all their Superduties. The 3/4 tons went up to 10000 pounds and the 1 ton SRW went up to 11400. I am not sure what the duallies are.
Now Ford has introduced the F450 with higher ratings yet. All this is happening for a reason.
Some States and Provinces are enforcing weight ratings. You can be as comfortable as you want with your RV but if it is over the weight ratings, you are breaking the warranty agreement on your vehicle and you are breaking the law. Call people like Bert and myself weight policeman.
Call me anything you want, just don't call me late for supper.......lol, but I get several PMs a month from members thanking me for my stand on truck ratings and helping them to choose the right vehicle. I drive a SRW F350 with an 11200 GVWR and the only rating I am slightly over on is my Montanas 12180 pound axle ratings if my water tank is full I am around 12300.
One last comment, so many posters try so hard to keep within the GVWR of the Fifthwheel but are happy as a clam to overload their TV. It makes no sense to me.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:02 AM   #26
richfaa
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Since we are here at a Family campers and Rv'er Rally we are going to many seminars.We go every year as is a way to stay up to date on Rv related items. Most interesting was one that included Insurance related questions and answers.All of this talk here about 3/4 ton and 1 ton and weights and not to worry about it are interesting.My personal choice is to stay within all stated and legal spec;s for my particular Truck and camper configuration no matter how inconvenient it may be for me.Insurance companies are not stupid..and it does not take a rocket scientist to suspect and make a good case in court , that a 3/4 ton truck pulling a 18.5 K fifth wheel is exceeding several spec's.Some of the things I see here at this rally in terms of tv camper combos are really scary. There ought to be a law???
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Old 07-11-2007, 06:08 AM   #27
virgil47
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I'd like to pick up on something that Wrenchtravler mentioned. I have noticed a lot more F450's for sale on dealer lots than in past years and a few more on the road. Since the F250/F350 numbers are running together, does anyone think Ford is going to eliminate the F250 in order to sell more F350's and F450's?
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Old 07-11-2007, 07:31 AM   #28
Ozz
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I don't think Ford should do much to muddy the water, they are fighting for survival in the marketplace now.
But they may very well do that, I imagine all the auto co. execs. are golfing right now, drinking their foo foo's, trying to see if they can get another $500.00 a unit out of us buyers....
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Old 07-12-2007, 10:53 AM   #29
Capt Kidd
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I opted for the Dodge 3500 1 ton which is more truck than I needed but I figured I was much more likely to trade up on the Montana than the truck so I bought more than I need right now. Was told my Dodge that the only difference between the 1 ton and the 3/4 is the springs.
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Old 07-12-2007, 01:47 PM   #30
Cat320
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by sreigle

I agree it is all very confusing. I took Bert's method and did the math and that makes it more confusing. If I subtract payload, from the sticker, from GVWR I get a number for the actual truck weight (and that is more than the shipping weight on th etitle). So I subtract that result from GCWR and I get a tow rating that is HIGHER than the mfr says for tow rating. Very confusing.
Maybe it's a Dodge thing. I ran my empty truck numbers like you did above, and came out within 43 lbs of my actual tow capacity. Keep in mind, this method is designed to be used with loaded vehicles. Try adding your pw to the truck weight, subtracting the GCWR, then see what it does to the tow capacity.
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Old 07-12-2007, 01:55 PM   #31
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quote:Originally posted by Bob Pasternak

Bert should take a lesson from the bumble bees. Aerodynamically, they can't fly 'cause some "experts" said the 'wing loading' was too great. Fortunately, the bees never read that dissertation so they fly anyhow. I spent several months driving trucks at Bosch Automotive Proving Grounds at New Carlisle, IN. We ran most vehicles aroung the durability test track with about a 40% overload. It was called "Accellerated mileage accumulation." The track was 2.5 miles around and I drove around 100 miles a night on it. 100 miles on that track was the equivalent of 10,000 miles in real life. I'd not worry about being being 15 or 20% over what the sticker says on ANY diesel 3/4 or 1 ton.
http://www.bosch.de/start/media/news...ng_grounds.wmv
I think if Chevy, Dodge or Ford's engineers could eeeek out one more pound of GVWR or cargo capacity or GCWR they would.

Re the bumble bees...some things you can 'make' fly...I've been banging around in helicopters off and on since 1969, they sure can't fly, but we make 'em.

As for being comfortable 15/20% over weight...the plaintiff's attorney would love to have that going for him.
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Old 07-12-2007, 02:13 PM   #32
Ozz
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Bert, you are hard core. I value your input though.
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Old 07-12-2007, 02:21 PM   #33
stiles watson
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If you don't want to risk getting sued, stop breathing. If fear of getting sued dominated my life, I would have never become a professional counselor, I would have never been a pastor. Fool-hearty, devil-may-care, risks are another matter. Calculated risks don't fall into that category. I would be ready to defend my use of the TV I have in court.
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Old 07-12-2007, 04:45 PM   #34
sreigle
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quote:Originally posted by Dave Nowlin

Then there is the other element not mentioned. Some of us aren't full-timers and still work. For some of us our truck is not only used for towing but is our personal vehicle. We may even travel some in it in our jobs. Sometimes it really doesn't make sense to drive a dually when our truck is used for other purposes. The one thing my professional truck driving son keeps reminding me of is it's not necessarily how much weight can you pull satisfactorily. It's how much weight can you stop satisfactorily. For some reason that doesn't seem to get mentioned much.
Dave Nowlin
Dave, I'm glad you pointed this out. I was in that same boat in my working days. My daily driver was our 1999 F350 V10 gasser. My company had offices in several locations around the city. I frequently, nearly every day and sometime several times per day, had to travel to another office for a meeting. I did get paid mileage for that but nevertheless your point is valid. I cannot imagine trying to park a dually in our company parking lots.

On brakes.. With the size of the brakes in today's trucks I'm not so sure that's a big issue. The trailers have brakes and do some of the stopping, although they're not as strong as I think they should be. I don't know about GM but assume it's the same as Ford and Dodge and the 3/4 ton brakes are the same as the 1 ton.

RichFAA, even I wouldn't go so far as to tow an 18k fifthwheel with an F250, contrary to what some probably think.

Cat320, you're probably right on the loaded weights comment. I have not yet scaled this Dodge so don't have actual weights to use in the calculations.

On the comment about some being careful about not going over gvwr on the trailer but not caring on the truck.. I am not convinced that the trailers have that much margin in them, certainly not the axles. Thus I'm very careful on the trailer axle and pinbox weight although we're a bit over GVWR.
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Old 07-12-2007, 05:00 PM   #35
sreigle
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Cat320

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Bob Pasternak

Bert should take a lesson from the bumble bees. Aerodynamically, they can't fly 'cause some "experts" said the 'wing loading' was too great. Fortunately, the bees never read that dissertation so they fly anyhow. I spent several months driving trucks at Bosch Automotive Proving Grounds at New Carlisle, IN. We ran most vehicles aroung the durability test track with about a 40% overload. It was called "Accellerated mileage accumulation." The track was 2.5 miles around and I drove around 100 miles a night on it. 100 miles on that track was the equivalent of 10,000 miles in real life. I'd not worry about being being 15 or 20% over what the sticker says on ANY diesel 3/4 or 1 ton.
http://www.bosch.de/start/media/news...ng_grounds.wmv
I think if Chevy, Dodge or Ford's engineers could eeeek out one more pound of GVWR or cargo capacity or GCWR they would.

Re the bumble bees...some things you can 'make' fly...I've been banging around in helicopters off and on since 1969, they sure can't fly, but we make 'em.

As for being comfortable 15/20% over weight...the plaintiff's attorney would love to have that going for him.
I think you live in Canada where this is a legal issue. In the US it is a guideline. My attorney and my insurance agent have both said that. However, they also said that if it could be ascertained that being over the ratings was the cause of an accident, then an attorney would press that issue although neither had heard of anyone losing a case like that other than being grossly over the ratings.
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Old 07-12-2007, 05:04 PM   #36
sreigle
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by virgil47

I'd like to pick up on something that Wrenchtravler mentioned. I have noticed a lot more F450's for sale on dealer lots than in past years and a few more on the road. Since the F250/F350 numbers are running together, does anyone think Ford is going to eliminate the F250 in order to sell more F350's and F450's?
I'm seeing the same thing. My guess is that with trailers increasing in weight, Ford figures there are people who would like to have a big Excel or Mobile Suites but don't want to buy a medium duty truck. A pickup with those ratings fills the bill.
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Old 07-13-2007, 09:26 AM   #37
Cat320
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I for one, would like to see where it says the ratings are just "guides." Everything you read, all the brochures, trailer magazines. etc, ALL say don't exceed the ratings. Those numbers are your vehicle's data plate, which is rivoted to the vehicle. The only place the 'guide' word is used is on these forums.
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Old 07-13-2007, 11:20 AM   #38
richfaa
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RichFAA, even I wouldn't go so far as to tow an 18k fifthwheel with an F250, contrary to what some probably think."

Yet we saw a toy hauler at a C.G and I could not beleive he was towing it with a 2003 F-250 and he said he THOUGHT it weighed in at about 18K. Hhe said he had been pulling it all over the country and never had a problem. Hummmmmm.
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Old 07-13-2007, 12:00 PM   #39
BirdingRVer
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by sreigle

I'm seeing the same thing. My guess is that with trailers increasing in weight, Ford figures there are people who would like to have a big Excel or Mobile Suites but don't want to buy a medium duty truck. A pickup with those ratings fills the bill.
Steve,
That is exactly what we have our neighborhood. There is a guy here that is pulling a BIG Mobile Suite with a F250. Boy, does that truck squat down when it is hooked up. I don't think I would tackle this Mobile Suite with my 1 ton dually.

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Old 07-13-2007, 02:09 PM   #40
Cat320
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I really don't know if some of the folks towing big trailers with small trucks are naive or just plain stupid. On the RV forum there's a guy towing a Teton with a 3/4 D/A and, even 'better' is the guy on the diesel forum with a SRW one ton D/A (GCWR 22,000) towing a rig with a GCW of 39,000...but, "tows great, never had a problem."
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