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Old 07-04-2011, 04:34 AM   #1
GX617
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Tow Vehicle Advice?

I am new to this site and was looking for advice on a unit we are considering.

I am seeking opinions; are the tow vehicle & trailer too maxed out for the specified weight capacities?

Are these capacities too marginal to allow for packing everything one needs to hit the road comfortably equipped for lengthy touring?

Any and all opinions are welcome.... thank you!

The following specs refer:

5th Wheel: 2008 Big Sky 340RLQ fully equipped minus washer/dryer
- GVWR 16,105#;
- shipping weight listed at 12,355#,
- carrying capacity of 3,750#
- Hitch weigh is 2105#,
- Does the 5500 Onan LP Generator raise the hitch weight and by how much?


Tow vehicle: 2008 GMC Duramax 6.6L, 6 spd Allison, 2500HD 4X4 Crew Cab SB,
GM lists the following specifications:
-GVWR = 9200#
-GCWR = 22,000#
-max towing weight with 5th wheel = 15,800#.

Truck has been fitted with:
- frame air bags with under hood compressor and under-dash controller.
- Reese 18K 5th wheel slider hitch
 
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Old 07-04-2011, 04:46 AM   #2
NCFischers
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Expect your hitch weight to be closer to 3000#. Ours is without the generator.
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Old 07-04-2011, 04:54 AM   #3
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You will be over limit a little, lots of people do it without any trouble. I don't know of one person who has ever had any trouble because they were over weight. You are not going to be sued, your insurance is going to be good. You have a very nice truck and camper. ENJOY.
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Old 07-04-2011, 05:29 AM   #4
HOOK
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You will love the power of the Duramax, and the performance of the Allison. The trans. takes a little getting used to but performs flawlessly. I personally prefer the 3500 but would feel good with the 2500. I'm an advocate of do all you can to prevent the unknown from supprising you. Enjoy and "may the road rise to meet you". After reading some other posts, I thought I would add IMHO the extra width of the dually is much safer if you have a need to hit the brakes hard while turning; the truck will not tend to roll over the tire side wall as the trailer pushes you and it will.
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Old 07-04-2011, 05:36 AM   #5
Delaine and Lindy
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With the 2500HD's the Pin weight is normally the issue. As for pulling the 2500HD with the Duramax/Allison will have no problem. However the issue then becomes stopping the load? I'm not telling you to tow over any limit. However there hundreds towing over either GVWR or over on the Pin Weight. The Big Sky is a very nice 5th wheel and its a heavy unit..

P.S. Pin weight will possibly be over the limit. And the Generator will add to the Pin weight. I have always thought you can have to much Trailer but never to much Truck. We went from a 2500HD to a Freightliner M2 and have own 4 3500HDs and have another 3500HD on order. We went with a larger Truck before getting a larger 5th wheel. My current SOB has a 4,200 lb pin weight and I don't have a Generator.....
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Old 07-04-2011, 06:11 AM   #6
Art-n-Marge
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For a GTWR of 16,105#, your 2500 is definitely light. My F250 had a GVWR of 10,000 and it was too light for my GTWR 14,040 trailer. The rear axle carries all the pin weight!

The way residential 5ers are designed most of the cargo weight ends up between the front axle and the pin. Most of that cargo weight you state will be on the front pin. The 2,105 pin weight is when the trailer is empty of cargo and it's already at 17%. It is said a residential RV carries 18% to 25% of its GTWR over the pin and on the rear axle of your truck so if you fill up your RV and keep it approaching its GTWR you can expect 2,898# (18%) to 4,026# (25%) or closer to what NCFischers states.

About your truck, If the truck is rated to tow a fifth wheel at 15,800, but can only support a 22,000 CGVWR then the truck MUST weigh no more than 6,200# when doing it. As a comparison, my truck with its 15,300 5er tow rating, and 23,000 CGCWR and with all its accessories including air bags and a compressor, the wife, the truck bed cargo, the hitch, weighs under 8,500 lbs leaving only 14,500 for a trailer.

Unfortunately, my opinion happens to come from facts, not what I wanted to do. When I did what I wanted I found I was overweight but was able to correct it, but this isn't always the case. There is more to tow ratings than a strong engine and transmission. Since the same engine and trans are used even in larger capable trucks, it's NOT this part that's creating weaknesses in our smaller trucks. There are MANY other factors to consider, like brakes, bearings, differential, drive shaft, shocks, etc. Adding air bags only improves the ride and headlight aim (I have air bags too) but read the fine print that they DO NOT increase the GVWR).

Ultimately the choice is yours what you want to do. It is estimated 40% to 45% of RV rigs (and this includes pretty much everything) are overweight at some point. ANY weight rating that is over makes the RV rig combination overweight. Many of the ratings are the maximum at their point but all must be considered collectively.

In this regard, there are plenty who will say, "you'll be fine" and maybe you will be but since I learned things go wrong when the weights are right, why push it and I didn't want being overweight to be a reason. I think there's a reason that there are different size trucks even though some components might be the same. However there are plenty of other RVing lifestyles that go against the grain but I'll stay on this topic. Again, your choice.

Lastly, if the generator is in the front storage area, most or all of its weight will be on the pin and so will the plumbing and electrical components' weight, too if they are in the same area. If it uses a different fuel source than the RV's propane, you can add this, too.
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Old 07-04-2011, 08:03 AM   #7
Hooker
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For starters, you can add at least 1,000# to the advertised empty pin weight...excluding the generator.

Also, check the Tire and Loading Information sticker on the left door panel of your truck, it will give you the cargo capacity for your truck. Normally for a truck like you have, the capacity will be around 2300/2400#.

One other formula (ignore the manual's claim of 15,800# tow capacity) you need to know, ACTUAL tow capacity is the GCWR minus the weight of the truck when ready to tow (including everything, pin weight, passengers, cargo, etc. So for your truck, assuming you will be at GW (actually you'll be way over), it will be 22,000 - 9,200 = 12,800 tow capacity.

IMHO, you will be way over weight and do not have near enough truck for a Big Sky.

Good luck!

On edit, it seems one or two of our Canadian members have said your truck must be within specs and not overweight or you'll get a ticket or fine. Maybe they can chime in with some more information.
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Old 07-04-2011, 08:42 AM   #8
GX617
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I appreciate the input experienced owners are providing.

We are looking to buy this unit (GMC 2500HD Diesel & BigSky 340 RLQ) but I was concerned about the towing capacities and being over weight.

More so, the safety factor involved in not having enough truck for the trailer!

Any more thoughts or input would be appreciated; but sounds if we want to tow this type of 5th wheel, we should be serious about a one ton and possibly it should be a DRW, or should it?

Thank you again

Craig & Jan
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Old 07-04-2011, 08:45 AM   #9
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The problem comes in with the GVWR of the truck being 9200 lbs. This means the truck, hitch, tool, full fuel tank, any tools, yourself, wife, dog and case of Bud, or whatever else you carry PLUS the pin weight of the Big Sky, SHOULD NOT weigh more that 9200 lbs. Good luck with that. I had a '05 Chevy truck same as yours and it weighted 6700 lbs empty. My pin weight on the trailer was almost 2900 lbs. 6700 + 2900 = 9600, already over the GVWR without adding anything to the truck, (such as myself, wife, tools, dog, Bud, tool box, rhino liner and hitch). My opinion, and it is just that, would be to go to either a 3500 or 4500, or 350 or 450 truck. That Big Sky is awfully heavy and a lot to stop on a dime.

I originally made that mistake and later upgraded to a 3500 dually and feel much more comfortable when I tow. Do yourself a favor and buy the biggest truck you can.

Others will be along to justify there 2500 trucks and that is their choice. BUYER BEWARE!!!!!!!!
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Old 07-04-2011, 09:23 AM   #10
stiles watson
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You are considering the same year and model Big Sky that I have been full timing in for nearly 4 years. I have never towed it with anything other than an F350. Even though I stay well back of the car in front of me, there are times that a two legged donkey suddenly pulls in front of me, causing me to wish I had more brake. Without criticizing those who do, I don't think I would pull my Big Sky with a 3/4-ton truck of any brand.

I switched back to a SRW from a DRW on my last trade. Just didn't want to deal with the dually size any longer. The 2011 F350 SRW does the job nicely. We have and continue to enjoy our 340RLQ. Whatever problems I have had, I fix or get fixed. I have up graded a number of things as you might do in your stick house, things that we think will make our experience better.
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Old 07-04-2011, 11:43 AM   #11
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Yep, sounds like you'll need a bigger TV to be safe. A SRW or DRW is kind of a personal preference and depends on your useage. We have the DRW and love it, but it's used for primarily towing it's not a daily driver when we're at the stick house.
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Old 07-04-2011, 12:31 PM   #12
richfaa
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You do not have enough truck and you will be over ratings and spec.s.Simple as that. There are folks that will tell you not to worry about it. Your choice. Stay within ratings and spec;s or takes your chances. If trouble occurs you will be the at fault guy..not the guy who advised you not to worry about it.
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Old 07-04-2011, 12:33 PM   #13
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If your truck is over the weight that is on the label from the manufacture ICBC will void your insurance. A trailer that size would need at least a 1 ton. Also the gear ratios make a difference in weight that the truck can take. On our 2008 Dodge the weight was 13,300 with 3:73 gears and 16,300 with 4:10 gears the dually was 16,600 with the 4:10 gears. These weights where from the Dodge towing book the dealer had. Air bags will shift some of the weight to the front axle but will not increase your maximum weight. Also you will need a a 51 restriction on your drivers license to pull a trailer over 10,000 lbs. in B.C.
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Old 07-04-2011, 05:17 PM   #14
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I pulled my 3400 with a 3/4 ton when I first got it. After a few short stops and some hills out west I quickly realized I needed more truck. Personally I would not consider anything under a 1 ton with a Big Sky.
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Old 07-05-2011, 06:05 AM   #15
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First let me say this - you CAN tow with a 2500 and be within all limits. Those that say you can't are flat wrong and I have the weight tickets to prove it. Now, that being said, it is highly LIKELY you will be well over weight if you carry even just a fair amount of things with you. I sometimes take my 3400 (same advertised pin weight) on short solo trips when I run races. With me, a half tank of gas, my kingpin tripod, the 5er hitch a couple of chairs, and a half tank of water, I weighed in about 100 lbs under max (9200). So you can see, it doesn't take much to exceed your truck GVWR. Also, my 2500HD was a 2003 and the 3500 SRW that year had the same brakes. So stopping distance is a moot point. In fact, the 2500 with the same brakes as a 3500 SRW will stop in a shorter distance, albeit minimal, because the truck weighs less. KE = 1/2 x mass x velocity squared, if I remember correctly. Not sure with the 2008 if brakes are the same.
That being said, this year I moved up to a 3500HD DRW for several reasons. I was tired of the wild bucking I got over almost every overpass. I felt like the springs were going to fail. Occasionally I still get some bucking and chucking, but it dampens out almost immediately with my 3500. Also, I have had enough camper and truck tires fail in 20 years of RVing, that I decided I wanted a greater safety margin with 4 rear tires.
Finally, I was tired of counting the pounds that were going into my truck and my rig. I know I was, on a few rare occasions, overweight by as much as 800-1000 pounds (yes, 1/2 ton, I am ashamed to admit), and that was starting to concern me. Now I am not concerned at all about the weight on my truck. It will carry a house + the kitchen sink. The new limiting factor will be the 5er axles and 5er tires.
The final straw was this past winter when we were traveling in MD on US 301 which has approximately 5,000 traffic lights between the Potomac river and Annapolis. I ran 2 of them -clean through, honking my horn, praying everyone saw me. I always tow at/under the speed limit and had just had my brakes checked. Regardless, I could not stop nor accelerate through the yellow. So I came home and began shopping for a truck with an exhuast brake, bigger disc brakes, and more rubber on the road for stopping power. That is how I ended up with sig TV.
I personally will never condemn anyone for towing with a 2500 and understand and accept that some are only slightly over the GVWR, as I usually was. I also believe that the horror stories of insurance cancellations, lawsuits, and state troopers weighing the wreckage of destroyed 5ers are mostly urban legend. Know what you are getting into, learn the actual weights of your rig and TV, understand the physics of rumbling down the highway in an 11 ton contraption, and be smart with your choices.

I can only relate my personal experience with towing a rig the size of yours with both an older model 2500 and a new model 3500 DRW. There is no comparison in truck capability and towing experience. Good luck with whatever you decide.
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Old 07-05-2011, 06:52 AM   #16
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akf15e..You are absolutly correct one can tow with a 3/4 ton truck and be within all ratings and spec's If you pick the proper truck/5th wheel combination. It is a incorrect statement to say it can not be down. I think most folks are relating to their 5th or that all Montanas are fairly heavy but I think the lighter Models will still fall withing 3/4 ton ratings and spec's. Our GCWR is 23,500 lbs, the Ford ready to tow is 9,000 lbs that leaves 14,500 lbs for the 3400 although the 08 Ford is rated at 15,500 5th wheel tow. We would be over with a 1 ton truck if loaded to max
In the op's case he was considering a very heavy camper with not enough truck..

It is all in understanding the numbers and choosing the proper equioment.
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Old 07-05-2011, 09:53 AM   #17
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Hooker, when traveling in BC do you have to stop at the scales like the "big rigs"??
Just curious as the wife and I want to head up that way in the near future.

Thanks,
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Old 07-05-2011, 02:35 PM   #18
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No you don't have to go to the scales. In our province we have a provincial insurance company that you have to buy basic insurance from and then you can buy the rest from a private insurance company or the from the provincial insurance. When you deal with monopoly at times they try anything not to pay.
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Old 07-05-2011, 03:27 PM   #19
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I'm in with what Butch stated. After this trip I will be shopping for a dually that can handle the Monty maxed out. Tired of be "slightly over my GCWR". My F-250 has handled the Smokeys, Blue Ridge, Appalachian, Northern Rockies, and Bitterroot Mtns without a hitch BUT I can't live with the marginal GCWR. Just my random thoughts.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:32 PM   #20
Phil P
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Hi

The engineers that configure these trucks are pretty good.

The charts I have with our Duramax 3500 DRW truck do show a higher GCVWR with 5th wheel than for a bumper pull.

Our trailer has a GVWR 15,905 Lb. We have pulled it at 15,380. When we weighed the truck and trailer we were within about 100 Lbs. of maximum weight on the TV front axel. I guess that if we loaded trailer to reach the GCVWR of 23,500 Lbs. the TV front axel would be very close to maximum and the rear axel would still be several 100 Lbs below maximum weight.

While the late model Silverado ¾ and 1-ton truck have the same brakes I am not overly impressed with the performance of the braking system on our Duramax. At the same time I have many years experience with the Hydro boost brake booster system used on these trucks and medium duty GM trucks and have never liked them. I have always felt that the vacuum boost Ford used on their 1-ton trucks performed better. I have replaced many more Hydro boost units than the Vacuum units but I have also changed a lot of the vacuum pumps on the Ford truck as well.

My experience with these units was while maintaining a very large fleet of rental trucks

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