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Old 01-16-2006, 10:09 AM   #41
Merv
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I also do not think a few inches would make a difference.
You are talking 2 or 3 inches over a 30 to 35 foot distance. This is very little angle. I think you have to keep this in perspective. Now if it was over say a 10 foot distance that might be a different story.
But as far as the attitude of the company, that may be something to be upset about.
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Old 01-16-2006, 11:41 AM   #42
Montana Sky
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I must have missed where Rick said he had airbags on his truck. I thought that was the problem, there is no adjustments to be made on his truck other than suspension changes. And the kingpin only has two holes for adjustments.
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Old 01-16-2006, 11:47 AM   #43
joe2speed
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I don't understand that there is no adjustment for the pin box. I have a 2004 - 3655FL and there are adjustment holes in the pin box. Maybe they changed the pin box design. I also had a Cougar and that had adjustment holes.
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Old 01-16-2006, 01:51 PM   #44
dsprik
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quote:Originally posted by joe2speed

I don't understand that there is no adjustment for the pin box. I have a 2004 - 3655FL and there are adjustment holes in the pin box. Maybe they changed the pin box design. I also had a Cougar and that had adjustment holes.
That's what happened... they apparently changed the pin boxes on the new 2006 units.
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Old 01-16-2006, 03:46 PM   #45
Wrenchtraveller
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My 05 F350 4X4 with 18 inch tires is one of the tallest trucks you can buy. It is slightly higher than my brothers 05 Dodge 4x4 and I have yet to see a stock Chev pickup that is anywhere near my F350 in ride height.

My 06 Montana 2955RL hooks up level and I have 6 inches between the bed rails and the Montana.
If I owned a Chev with the same hitch I would have 8 inches clearance which is a little better.

This 5th wheel is my number 5 and I always felt responsible to make my TV and trailer match.
It never occurred to me that my 5th wheel manufacturer should be held responsible for this.

My 95 Kit Companion had to have the rear springs moved on top of the axles to tow level behind my 95 F250 4x4.

It is better to have your fiver level but slightly high in the front is ok also.
If your too high in the front like my Kit was, you get uneven braking and my front tires would lock up because they had considerably less weight on them than the rear. Also to live in the unit we had to pull the trailer up on blocks. We did a couple trips like this and then levelled the trailer.

This whole thread confuses me and I think it is a little bit of a tempest in a teapot.
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Old 01-16-2006, 04:28 PM   #46
rickfox
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Good evening All,

For the record, I commented that the weight of the 3400RL caused the rear of my TV to sag approximately 3". The air bags are only used to bring the TV back to level. This only takes about 10 PSI on the airbags. When the TV is running level, the 3400RL front is approximately 1.5" high. That in itself seemed to be OK for me.

However, I decided I wanted a Mor/ryde pinbox, so I called and talked to them. Their "experts" who are supposed to know, recommended against it as it would place the front of the 3400RL at 2.5" - which they said was unsafe!!!!! It seems reasonable to take their word over those who have only opinions.

I also have seen a lot of goofy things, but that doesn't make those things OK or safe. I will happily listen to the recommendations from those who have equal or superior technical credentials to the Mor/ryde folks who wish to weigh in on this topic. But seeing someone else driving down the road with the trailer high or low doesn't make it safe. For example, if the time comes you have to make a panic stop and the front end of the TV is headed down, how comfortable would you be knowing that your high riding 5th wheeler is trying to come over the top of that hitch and right through the back window at you. Better hope those trailer brakes hold and the king pin don't pop.

With respect to your comment HomeontheRoad, the pin box is mounted to the frame by what I have been told are wing brackets. Typically the wings have multiple sets of holes that can be used to mount the pin box in multiple vertical positions. It is these wings which are a part of the frame that provide the adjustability - not the pin box. I believe MIMF will confirm that. Typically the only differnce between a standard and an extended pin box is the length, not the hole pattern. Those interested can go to the glide-ride web site at http://www.glide-ride.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc and click on the Lippert link to see the differences in their standard and extended pin box.

The bottom line on all this is that I can probably ride my TV a little low in the rear (using less air in the airbags) and let the trailer run a little high and be pretty safe.

But according to the Mor/ryde rep, I shouldn't install their pin box. I also should not install one size larger tires (with a higher load rating) because of potential safety problems related to futher raising the front of the trailer.

And this is because the design of the 2006 Montana does not allow any adjustments to increase the pin box height (which will allow the front to ride lower). Many other brands do. Montana does not. I don't know how to make it any more clear than that. Whatever change I make, it will be to compensate for this lack of adjustment on the Montana. Some say its better that way. Some say it doesn't matter so get over it. I say its a dumb design and Montana shouldn't put that design off on the customer.

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Old 01-16-2006, 04:46 PM   #47
rickfox
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Wrenchtraveller,

I think you are pretty much correct. I don't think Montana will do anything, and it will be up to me to make the required changes. In the past, I have been able to do that by adjusting the pin box, or the hitch. This time it will be a little more difficult.

A I mentioned earlier, the Glide-Ride pin box claims to give me about 3/4" better positioning, and I perhaps may go to a lower profile hitch. This will cost in the range of $1200 - $1300 if I do the work myself. It's just unfortunate for me that I can work hard at negotiating a great price on the trailer only to have to spend the savings somewhere else simply because Montana decided to change things. If you happended to read most of the thread, you will have noted that the unit as delivered, was not constructed the same as the one we saw on the lot - the rolling design change got me.

The shorter pin box that came on the delivered unit also makes it a somewhat snugger fit when I back up with the gate down to hitch up. My TV is a short bed. Since I don't know if the long bed trucks differ in lenght from the axle to the rear bumper, I don't know if this will cause any problems with the long bed.
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Old 01-16-2006, 04:59 PM   #48
paulrem
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Rick, as you can see by my signature I have the same set up that you have except I do not have the airbags. My coach hooks up level and it pulls just fine. Yes my PU drops a couple of inches when the Monty is hooked up and that is when it becomes mostly level, not enough to make changes(air bags). I made a trip to the Monty today to check out the hitch pin and it has the same setup that you are talking about, only two adjustment holes and it is in the upper holes. We have traveled about 10,000 miles since buying the new coach and have had no problems with it as far as towing. I have not been interested in putting on a Mor-ride hitch pin but I can see where you are coming from. I think that if I were to put the new hitch on it might raise the front of the 5er up to were it might not be level and am not sure what kind of problems that might create. Not having a Montana design person on with us, I am not sure what they had in mind with this design, there may be a good reason. And then on the other hand there may not be a good reason. I am hoping that we would get a reply from the Keystone soon.
I know that this is not an answer for you, I hope you get an answer soon.
Just my 2 cents worth.
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Old 01-16-2006, 05:51 PM   #49
dsprik
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by rickfox

Good evening All

...However, I decided I wanted a Mor/ryde pinbox, so I called and talked to them. Their "experts" who are supposed to know, recommended against it as it would place the front of the 3400RL at 2.5" - which they said was unsafe!!!!!
Guess my first thought is "Who did you talk to at Mor/Ryde?" This sounds like a very serious matter. Not trying to start an arguement, Rick. It's just that if someone warned me that my brand new, VERY expensive Montana was now viturally useless, because it was too unsafe to pull it down the road with even ONE of the 3 major branded tv's (GM/Ford/Dodge), I don't care what kind of an expert they are, I'd get a second opinion... and a third... and a fourth - from Mor/Ryde first.

That's a very serious warning, Rick. They are basically saying that Keystone/Monatana is putting out a unit that is not towable by a stock Dodge pickup. MIMF has to be considered an expert on this issue, but again... he is only one. I think I'd keep going up the chain of command until I got a reasonable, non-sarcastic explanantion... and how they recommended that THEY find a solution for you. "Get another tow vehicle" is a sarcastic answer. You want to talk to someone who can give you real solutions. After all... I'll bet they didn't have a sticker somewhere (even fine print) on the Montana that read, "This fifth wheel trailer CANNOT be towed by a stock Dodge pickup, only by a stock Ford, or by a stock GM, otherwise properly equipped and rated pickup".

Don't get me wrong, Rick. If someone were to tell me that my tv/5ver combination was unsafe, and if I tried to pull it, I would be risking tearing something up, I would be flabbergasted, then very angry. I guess I would like to see Montana's justification for this two-setting arrangement. When you talked to Montana, after you talked to Mor/Ryde, did anyone at Montana confirm, or deny, Mor/Ryde's comments and warning?
Quote:
quote:I also have seen a lot of goofy things, but that doesn't make those things OK or safe. I will happily listen to the recommendations from those who have equal or superior technical credentials to the Mor/ryde folks who wish to weigh in on this topic. But seeing someone else driving down the road with the trailer high or low doesn't make it safe.
Rick, I apologize if you thought I was in any way suggesting that my encounter Sunday on I-75, implyed that this rig was extremely dangerous, and therefore, conversely, yours was not. That surely was not my intent. I apologize if I gave you that impression.
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Old 01-17-2006, 02:04 AM   #50
Wrenchtraveller
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I have to give my experience with air bags. They are designed to share the weight with your springs. If you inflate your air bags to bring your truck up to the same height as it was empty, then you have too much weight on the airbags and not enough on the springs and this will result in a mushy unstable ride.

I have been hauling slide in campers since 1974 so I know a little bit about this subject.
Trucks are designed to squat a little with a load. That is why most of them are higher in the ass end when they are empty. I had 00 F350 and I put Firestone Airbags on it. The instructions that come with these bags support this post.If I brought the truck up to the unloaded level, that whole unit was terrible to drive with a dangerous amount of sway.
By playing around with different pressure I found the pressure that made the truck handle the best and this pressure still allowed the truck to squat about 2 inches instead of 4 inches.

Look at your over load springs, they only work if your other springs sag down to them.
If you prevent this with airbags, you defeat the purpose of the overloads and let me tell you this, a truck with a slide in camper is much more stable being supported by steel leaf springs
than mushy airbags. People will almost always need upgraded adjustable shocks if they use their air bags incorrectly.

Let your truck springs work properly by taking the load and squatting down a bit.

In a perfect world, all pickups would have headlights that adjust to thier load height.


One last comment, my 05 F350 CC LB handled my 03 Okanagan Slide in Camper much better without airbags than my 00 F350 SB did with airbags. It was a dramatic improvement and it really made me realize how over rated air bags are.

Take care and I think the pin weight of most Montanas are designed for 1 ton trucks.

When I was shopping for my Montana at different dealers, I never had one salesperson ask me what my TV was and we always took the Honda Accord when we went RV shopping. I had done the research and I had installed and set up my hitch to fit the Montana but I never told them.

I joked with my wife that we should show up with a Ford Ranger when we picked up the Montana just to see the look on the salesman face. Take care, Don.

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Old 01-17-2006, 02:29 AM   #51
Merv
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Please dont be offended by this, but as I understand it you want to modify the original Montana set up. And you are upset because they say you should not. This does not seam to be a Montana problem. If I understand correctly it sounds like the unit will ride level the way it was originally designed. Just because someone wants to change the original setup does not mean that the design was bad. It is very seldom that a company will take responsability for anything that the customer changes with a product design.
I would have to agree that the company should not be responsible for the proposed alteration to their design.

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Old 01-17-2006, 03:01 AM   #52
old turbo
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I agree with Ed and Sue is this 1 1/2" a big deal.I tow travel trailers part time out of Indiana . I tow different 5vrs from 25 to 33 ft. I tow these units coast to coast. I know they do not set exactly to the inch on my 15k hitch. It has never been a concern with me.If it looks good on my pre trip check off I go. I have never adjusted anything from the time I picked up my 2004 Mountaineer in TN. with my old 93 Dodge to just installing the same hitch in my 01 Dodge dually,I live in MI. I just take the time to inspect the pin and hitch jaws for wear.I have a long time friend who is a welder and blacksmith and also installs hitches. He has told me that most people get their rigs over hitched, larger is not always better just more expensive. With all the extra slideouts on the 5vrs now he said that this could be a weight and stability concern on a 3/4 ton truck.He also told me that the new pickupsp that the Big three are producing sit different than their old counterparts.Just My and Bobs opinion.
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Old 01-17-2006, 05:45 AM   #53
rickfox
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Wrenchtraveller,

I agree with much of what you said. Normally, the TV run about 2" high in the rear. When the 3400 is hitched up, the TV sags to about 1" (or so) low. The hitch pin weight is about 2400#. I use the airbags to level up. This typically means that the springs are about 2" compressed.

When we head out on longer trips (more stuff) the hitch pin weight can go upwards of 2800# which thus requires more PSI in the airbags.

This whole mess started when our dealer recommended the Mor/ryde hitch as a good add-on, especially since Montana was going to the Mor/ryde suspension. I thought it a good idea since there have been many times I wished we could reduce the back and forth chugging of the trailer/TV combination. I was dissappointed to say the least when Mor/ryde said not to do it.

I have now purchased the Glide-Ride pinbox and will get it in about 1 week. According the Glide-Ride, it will actually lower the trailer front end about 3/4" while the Mor/ryde would have raised it an additional 1". If all is true, this will make the trailer ride almost level rather than with the nose up 2.5" And, if all is true, the Glide-Ride will make towing better that I could have achieved with the Mor/ryde. Better all the way around - I hope.
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Old 01-17-2006, 01:09 PM   #54
Wrenchtraveller
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Rickfox, Good luck with your new Pinbox and I hope it works out well for you. Don.
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Old 01-19-2006, 06:14 AM   #55
snfexpress
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Rickfox,

Have you figured out which Glide-Ride part # you are going to order? I told my dealer that I want the Glide-Ride pin box and am thinking about going with a Reese 16k hitch. Any other suggestions?
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Old 01-20-2006, 04:56 AM   #56
rickfox
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snfexpress,

Glide Ride has 2 pin boxes that will "mount" to the Montana. Their LCI1116 pin box is a replacement for the Lippert LIPP1116. The LCI1716 is the replacement for the Lippert LIPP1716. Check the pin box part number on your trailer, or the one you will be purchasing, to determine the correct one to order.

If your tow vehicle is a long bed, either will work fine. If you have a short bed, the LIPP116/LCI1116 may be a little short for your preference, unless your trailer has the new front cap, in which case this may not be the case.

The LCI1716 is a 5 3/4" extended pin box, which will provide a little more turning room if you have a short bed truck. But, as I understand it, Montana is not keen on replacing the standard length with an extended pin box. However, I do not believe weight or extra forces on the pin box are the real issues here, because Montana uses the extended pin box on the shorter trailers, which typically have the highest hitch pin weights.

I'm not mentioning which pin box I have ordered, as I know that Montana sometimes watches this site, which is not necessarily a bad thing.
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Old 01-20-2006, 10:17 AM   #57
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I have followed this post from the beginning, but have refrained from commenting. I have been out of touch since Monday - took a quick trip to Tampa to the RV show. Rick, I'm sure glad you brought the shorter pin box to my attention. You are certainly correct in the limited adjustability of the pin box also.

The Montana display did not have any new front caps at the show, but I did get to see one at Northgate RV, who is my local dealer in the Knoxville area, at his North Gerogia location on our way home this afternoon. They look sharp and I like the mirror. I believe the rounded cap was Keystone's modification to help with the short pin boxes. I don't believe it's enough to compensate though. I was talking with the owner of Northgate, and his explanation was that the pin placement was Montana's answer to better towing. This is susposed to change the air flow and cut down on bucking or chuckling. All I could say was "Really". He has always told me that Montanas were the best towing 5th wheel on the market.

I don't think that I will be disappointed with a Montana now. I appreciate the heads up, Rick. I may very well be disappointed by another manufacturer. I have no intentions of bashing Montana or Keystone, I think they are nice units, but I'm going elsewhere. I will answer PM's.

Best Regards, Ted
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Old 01-20-2006, 10:26 AM   #58
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Maybe if you need airbags to level your truck, you need a more heavy duty truck?
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Old 01-20-2006, 04:21 PM   #59
Montana Sky
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Did anyone else catch the new pin rating from Lippert on the standard kingpin? it is 19,000 lbs- could that be part of the reason they got rid of the extended kingpin for the 34' or larger rigs. Makes one wonder if they are going to 19,000 lbs what is next when it comes to the running gear? Maybe stronger bigger axles? better carrying capacity? Oh how I enjoy the upgrades that have come down so far!
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Old 01-21-2006, 11:23 AM   #60
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Good Afternoon Folks,

Keystone Customer Service has contacted me asking for photos of my rig. They say they are interested in looking into the situation and will be doing a number of pin box height measurements and making weight measurements at various front up and front down positions - apparently looking into how the pin weight changes.

For what its worth, Trailer Life magazine has stated that in their opinion, a trailer or 5th wheel is safer when it is level or slightly down in the front. I have not found any info as to why they say this. Anyway, Montana is taking a look at the situation since the Monty has a propensity to like going down the road in the front up position. Perhaps they will look into a design change to change that a little.

The pin box (which Montana says is the standard length) weight rating on my unit is 19,000#. I do not know what the weight rating of the extended pin box that was used on earlier models. Nor do I know if previous year models were mounted in the same manner.

I did go to the Fort Worth TX RV show yesterday and took pictures of the pin boxes and how they mounted for the new Montana (they did not have any extended pin box models at the show), Mountaineer, Everest, and Challenger. Montana was the only one that had the limited adjustment pin box. All the others had multiple holes for up and down adjustment. It seemed that most of the new trailers at the show utilized this multi-hole design. However, there were others including Exel and Fleetwood that used the Montana design.

This whole discussion originally centered around whether it was a good idea - safety speaking - to install the Mor/ryde pin box on the Monty since doing so would cause the front end to ride about 1" higher (unless this could be adjusted out some way).

As mentioned previously, I have ordered a Glide-Ride pin box that supposedly will lower the front end of the trailer by about 3/4". The pin box - which another trailer owner has told me is constructed much better than the Lippert (thicker metal, better welds) - has a towing weight spec at 21,000#. Their extended pin box model has a spec. of 19,000# - the same as the current "standard length" Lippert pin box that currently comes on the 3400RL.

Perhaps the answer is a new Glide Ride "extended" pin box - it allows the Monty front end to ride lower, and provides more room for turns, and it has the same weight rating of the current pin box. I wonder what Montana would say?
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