Our 3790 leaving for the factory for repairs...again..

[FreeRoamn]

Originally Posted by Golfmedik

There have been several 18&19s that have had to have the same repair done.

I know of 19' that is sitting at the dealership waiting for Keystone to figure out a "fix". The owners purchased the trailer last Spring and put a few thousand miles on it and started having issues with the front cap coming loose and a number of other major structural issues with basically the rig coming apart.

They brought it back to the dealer where at first the dealer grilled them that they had taken the rig off-road. However, once the dealer cut some access holes in the underbelly cover, they could see exactly what the issue was. Several cross members between the frame rails were bent, like they had impacted something. The only way this could have happened was during the manufacturing process.

The dealer is now very sympathetic toward the owners and the owners are trying to get the rig replaced as it is under one year old. The sad part is these are my good friends whom I recommended Montana to but I also realize any brand can have issues and that not all Montana's have issues as bad as this but still it is unnerving.

Anyway, I hope the OP gets some satisfaction after all they have been through.

[lightsout]

Sounds like this issue is significant enough to warrant a possible recall. I had Frame issues on my 2018 Wrangler that was recalled, my Wrangler was ultimately replaced. However this sounds like a significant safety issue for everyone on the road not just the RV owner...

If you do not receive a letter of notification from the vehicle manufacturer but think that your vehicle might be or should be involved in a recall campaign, call the Vehicle Safety Hotline at 888-327-4236 or 800-424-9393, visit the NHTSA www.safercar.gov Web site.

Those that are having an issue like this should report it since this is clearly not an isolated issue and many may have this issue and not even know it since the problem is concealed...

[lightsout]

Originally Posted by Golfmedik

The initial one was done with aluminum being welded over each joint in the left front. Now they weld in an overlay that takes the stress off of the welds in the same area and it is bolted in

Good info...

Do you see this as likely a defficiency on all the Montana's in this category or is it something more likely isolated to a select few?

[Golfmedik]

Originally Posted by lightsout

Good info...

Do you see this as likely a defficiency on all the Montana's in this category or is it something more likely isolated to a select few?

Not all of the ones in the affected models will develop the separation. No one knows why or which ones. OR, maybe they just haven't yet. It's hard to say, but once you see the way these rigs are welded together, it will make you mad. However, Montana is not the only line with this problem. There are many even higher prices rigs like Mobile Suites, Redwoods, etc that have the same separation.

[mlh]

I knew a man that owned a small RV dealership he said campers and people are a lot alike once you get the skin off of them there isn’t much difference in them. The problems we find here will be in other brands like Golfmedik said.
Lynwood

[RVbuying]

I have. 2020 Montana with tons of issues thus far so I need to know what delamination is and looks like? Anyone have the front window in 5th wheel that pools with water like a trough? It’s fantastic let me tell ya...not

[Golfmedik]

Originally Posted by RVbuying

I have. 2020 Montana with tons of issues thus far so I need to know what delamination is and looks like? Anyone have the front window in 5th wheel that pools with water like a trough? It’s fantastic let me tell ya...not

If you look at the pics here, you will see a "bulge" in the wall. When the unit first went back to the factory in "17 we were told it was a "misaligned stud" and was fine. I do not understand why it wasn't addressed the first time as the section would move when pressed on back then. Now the area is very soft and the outer fiberglass skin flexes quite a bit when you push on it. Delamination is when the fiberglass skin starts to separate from the wood backing, causing the skin to bulge outward.

[speedster100]

Luckily we have not had any such issue with our 2015 3790rd.

[Golfmedik]

Spoke with the factory warranty guys on Thursday and the camper is there at the factory. It is still going to be there for the quoted 10 weeks. Nothing has been done yet, but it will go to Lippert if any of the cross members behind the axles are broken as we suspect. The left wall is to be replaced and the frame flex is to be repaired again. We are still optimistic we will have the unit back for our spring break trip as they are working towards that goal I'm told.

[dieselguy]

Holy Lemons Batman! I can't believe Keystone is putting that much work and rework into a unit. I'd surely think Keystone would just give you the keys to a new one. I know according to many on the MOC I'm supposed to be supportive of your plight, but I never was a "bobble head" ... I'd never be comfortable with a unit that will been taken apart to the structural extent and in places twice over as yours. Money and brand loyalty would not matter to me at this point.

[FreeRoamn]

Originally Posted by dieselguy

Holy Lemons Batman! I can't believe Keystone is putting that much work and rework into a unit. I'd surely think Keystone would just give you the keys to a new one. I know according to many on the MOC I'm supposed to be supportive of your plight, but I never was a "bobble head" ... I'd never be comfortable with a unit that will been taken apart to the structural extent and in places twice over as yours. Money and brand loyalty would not matter to me at this point.

+1 Have to agree with Dieselguy on this. There has to be some remedy that is a least somewhat fair. 10 weeks plus all that you have been through to this point is beyond reasonable, fair or anything else. There has to be a cut-off point even for Keystone to give you a new rig where it makes financial sense much less confidence boost in a product for future customers. I am on my last Montana, time to move on....

[Golfmedik]

When the unit was gone for the nearly 4 months the first time, we were told by their "case manager" that we would be reimbursed for our monthly payment for each month they had the unit and then were told we would receive an extended warranty. No offer when the unit got back of reimbursement however, we did get a 90 day extended warranty!!!!!

I did a very detailed write up on another forum about and was told by a Keystone manager back in '17 that it didn't matter what I wrote on any forum as they really didn't care as they were the #1 seller of 5th wheels for 17 years running(then) and they were NOT scared of a lawsuit as they had attorneys on staff that would tie up the unit until we were broke. HOWEVER, that was ONLY ONE employee and I've never had any other BAD dealings with Keystone since then as I had not needed them. During the first incident, I was told that if anything ever came up on our rig again that they had repaired, they would handle it. Fast forward to last rally when I brought it to the tech's attention, he said since it had been repaired already, it would automatically become a "management" case again. We received a call from Keystone on the way home and so far this time, they have been very positive and have sent a driver to my residence to pick up the unit(unlike last time when I had to turn it back over to the dealer) and I've been able to speak with them when they said we would. It is a different case now dealing with the one I am dealing with now as he is extremely pleasant and straight forward. As a side note, My last camper was a FR and it came from the factory with undersized axles under it and I could call directly to the Chief Engineer, Chief of Warranty and event the CEO's desk and speak to them as they would answer. Nothing like that with Keystone the last time, but this time, so far has been entirely different and they DO care what we say on the forums as they monitor them now daily. Yes, I am ticked because the rig did this again, but they are stepping up and taking care of it. PLUS, my work partner's unit needed the same repair and it was handled by Affinity RV at the end of the parking lot of Keystone, and there were Mobile Suites, Redwoods, Heartlands and other Keystone models there with the same "flex" problem to be repaired.

[dieselguy]

"but they are stepping up and taking care of it" ... I'll be so bold to ask as I'm sure several others here wonder about your answer but are too polite to ask. At what point will you resolve to part ownership from your current fiver? The vaunted factory repair crew had a go at it once already. Now it's "ding ding" round two back at the factory in addition to replacing an entire sidewall??? Absolutely none of this makes any dollars and sense to me on the Keystone side. Your observation about other brands awaiting a fix for the same tragedy sounds like a person searching for justification. You and I have no connection and I'm not one to be caught up in another's long suffering issues, but ... what is it that holds you to this unit and not press for another?

[PNW Fireguy]

I suspect with the hay day Rv production push over that all of the manufacturers realize a shift in at least a perception of positional strength. Corporate reputation now takes a more forward seat as forecasted production is but a fraction of 2018. Warm bodies and a pulse are no longer the only employment requirements on the production line and workers are not changing companies over a .25/hr pay difference. All of the above should hopefully result in a dramatic shift from some of the build deficiencies and negative interactions between consumer and manufacturer.
Monty I hope all works out as you expect and these issue become the past so that you can enjoy your rig of choice.

[Golfmedik]

Originally Posted by dieselguy

"but they are stepping up and taking care of it" ... I'll be so bold to ask as I'm sure several others here wonder about your answer but are too polite to ask. At what point will you resolve to part ownership from your current fiver? The vaunted factory repair crew had a go at it once already. Now it's "ding ding" round two back at the factory in addition to replacing an entire sidewall??? Absolutely none of this makes any dollars and sense to me on the Keystone side. Your observation about other brands awaiting a fix for the same tragedy sounds like a person searching for justification. You and I have no connection and I'm not one to be caught up in another's long suffering issues, but ... what is it that holds you to this unit and not press for another?

I'll be glad to talk about it. I've been following these units almost religiously since ours went back the first time and since then, I only know of three Montanas that they have replaced out of the dozens they have repaired. A friend just got his back after it being gone for weeks having the entire kitchen floor replaced, frame flex repaired, closet rebuilt and new axles and tires. His was in the factory for a little over two months. As far as it not making sense to you now on the Keystone side, it is my belief that the previous manager I dealt with GROSSLY misunderstood the power of social media and finally realized they were taking a HUGE hit in the market and changed how they are doing business when their units have a problem. They actually lost their "Best selling 5th wheel" title last year.
As far as seeking justification, I don't have to. Every manufacturer out there has their own problems, but this particular problem is now showing up industry wide. When we were at the rally in September, we visited Affinity and saw with my own eyes the number of rigs and manufacturers on the lot waiting for this same fix. I'm not sure if you realize this or not, the frame flex problem is originating in the sidewall at the forward, lower edge of the any of the front slides. There is not enough support for the heavy slides and the twisting of the unit as it is towed. The units have roughly a 6" aluminum beam behind that area that flexes and then breaks resulting in the area bulging outward and then the bottom seam over the overhang splitting and opening up each time the unit is placed on the truck. It really has nothing to do with the steel frame, but the aluminum frame that is sat down on the steel one.
New for the 2020.5 year model campers is a HUGE area under the front left slide almost 16" in height instead of the mere 6" they've historically had to address this flaw. I will post a comparison pic.
Also to answer your question, if we were offered a brand new camper of our model, I'm not sure we would accept it as neither of us like the new version as they have changed the kitchen area so much that my wife actually despises it now. Another model rig? Maybe. That being said, Keystone is dealing with a HUGE warranty problem with many of it's TT as the flooring they installed is now cracking and breaking. So literally hundreds of TT are now in Indiana to have the entire flooring redone and they do that by lifting the aluminum cage, removing the cabinets and putting new flooring down and the then re-installing the cabinets after the cage has been set back down on the floor. My rig was scheduled in the middle of this predicament and is partly why it is taking so long.
As far as the sidewall goes, there are factory authorized repair shops around Goshen now that replace entire sidewalls. The studs stay there and the wood/fiberglass sheeting is pulled away after the side of the roof is taken loose, the slides are set on the ground, cabinet doors take off, water heater and furnace are removed, the entire side panel comes off. Then the aluminum is then hit with a grinder to remove the dried glue, new glue is then put in place and an new wall is installed and everything else put back on. It's not that it takes that long to do it, just getting it in the shop to do it. Affinity can replace the entire sidewall in a week and yes, I actually have asked why ours couldn't go to there and was told they wanted to see what happened to the previous repair. In my mind, they now may think that more of the ones they have already done will be coming back.
As for NOT pressing for another unit, I kind of answered that above, as it would have to be another unit. Also, why not get rid of it? I believe you know the financial hit we would take by trading campers now. But, that being said there will come a time that we are "through" with this I'm sure. I'm extremely ticked that it is having to go through this again as we use this unit every three weeks if not more and we are having to cancel camping dates we have had scheduled for almost a year, but I don't want to continue to pull the rig and it get worse, plus let water behind the wall.
And you are correct, you and I have no connection other than forums such as this. I appreciate the questions and don't and answering them at all. Some where along the line, this will help someone else either buy or not buy a Montana. I've always tried to help people work on their own rigs as I'm known on FB for doing mods and showing people how to repair their units while camping. It's just something I've always done. I like to help people save money by showing them they can do it themselves and to hopefully let them enjoy camping more. It sometimes backfires on me(as in this situation with my rig) but nevertheless, I do.
Attached is the two differences in the left front wall construction to help understand that they are trying to prevent this in the future. I look forward to more companies following this.

[Golfmedik]

Originally Posted by PNW Fireguy

I suspect with the hay day Rv production push over that all of the manufacturers realize a shift in at least a perception of positional strength. Corporate reputation now takes a more forward seat as forecasted production is but a fraction of 2018. Warm bodies and a pulse are no longer the only employment requirements on the production line and workers are not changing companies over a .25/hr pay difference. All of the above should hopefully result in a dramatic shift from some of the build deficiencies and negative interactions between consumer and manufacturer.
Monty I hope all works out as you expect and these issue become the past so that you can enjoy your rig of choice.

I agree Derek. They are much more aware of how they are being perceived now versus telling themselves how they are perceived. As far as the workers go, you and I had this discussion in Goshen. There is no loyalty by the workers as the demand in the area is so high, and add a "skill" they have learned at the previous factory, they leave for more money. Nothing at all like Richard Branson runs his businesses for sure.
Thank you buddy and I hope you are enjoying "working" again and hope you guys are healthy!

[mlh]

Golfmedic after all the trouble you have had, if you HAD to buy another camper what would you buy?
Lynwood

[dieselguy]

Golfmedik ... As you've probably gleaned from my many posts and replies, I'm not a bashful one as far as wading into any discussion. We seem to be similar as in trying to get RV owners to realize they can do alot of things to their units themselves instead of dragging it to a dealer with dismal results. I too had a ton of mods on each of my 3 Montanas as I do now on my Cedar Creek. Disk Brakes being the number 1. Your last reply to me covered and explained it all and very well I might add.

There will just be WAAAYYYY too much taken apart and put back together on your unit not to constantly be tumbled around in the back of my mind were it my unit. No matter the risk of similar issues on a replacement unit, the number of personal mods, the loss of $$$, the love of a given floor plan ... none of that would stop me from hanging a FOR SALE sign on it once I got it back. I just could never come to peace with it all ... but I'm not you. I'll leave you alone and hope for the better and that there will not be a third chapter to your ordeal.

[Golfmedik]

Dieselguy, I understand how you feel and I am usually that way, but trying to change my ways I get older . It will always be in my mind as well, what they didn't do or did do to make things not work out, but in reality, it's kind of the same playing Russian Roulette with buying a new one.
No sense in leaving me alone, I enjoy the discussion. If there is a third chapter, I can guarantee I won't be as nice.

Lynwood, my wife and I both like the new 3760FL and REALLY like the brand new 3780RL!! If it were not to be a Montana, then it would probably be a Riverstone as it has just about everything we want. Although, that would mean dealing with FR again!!

[Golfmedik]

Well, I've been waiting all day for a call that was supposed to come by tomorrow at the latest. That call is supposed to tell me where my rig will be repaired and WHEN I will get it back. Yesterday's call was not a pleasant one as I was told they were in fact going to replace the left wall(something we've known since Sept at the rally) and they need the unit an additional 10 weeks!!!!!!! Keep in mind that we agreed on a pickup time and they were supposed to have the unit back before our spring break trip. As of yesterday, I was told that would not happen and when I asked when I would get it back, it THREATENS MY VACATION!!! Also keep in mind that I've had to cancel 3 trips already and the potential for 5 more, including the two mentioned trips that have already been paid for PLUS my time off has already been scheduled!!! As I've already stated, they kept my rig just shy of 4 months the first time in '17 to do a job that is done now in 2 days! They are checking to see if they can get it to Topeka at the Crossroads plant to repair it there IF it can be done by the original date.
I've been very supportive of Keystone and have sold three other Montanas for them to our camping group, but I think this is where the support ends! Due to how my family's schedules are, we get to spend 3 days together every three weeks and that is when we camp. We can't even do that and now being told the family vacation is in limbo, you can bet I'm ticked!! Will update when I know more.