Trying to make sense of towing numbers...

[Texan]

You are looking from the top and they probably did most of the work from the bottom.

[CADman_KS]

Originally Posted by Texan

You are looking from the top and they probably did most of the work from the bottom.

That's kind of what I'm assuming. However, tensioner is on the top. I don't think that you could access it from the top. There isn't enough room for the wrench. On a quick search, I couldn't find any videos in how to change it.

The L5P would make any Steampunker proud! That thing is a hosing nightmare...

[lightsout]

Originally Posted by CADman_KS

Off topic slightly...

Does anyone know if the numbers that Keystone puts on the trailer decal are the ACTUAL numbers for that unit, or the theoretical - "we weighed the first one of these and it weighed XXXXX", so that's what gets put on all labels for a particular model?

For actual weight of your 5er you need to call Keystone provide them your Vin # they will email you the actual shipping weight of your RV. Every RV is weighed before leaving Keystone as Options Matter. Whereas the published and sticker weight of my 3791RD is 13,900 lbs however with my options, Legacy pkg, King Bed, and residential refer the actual weight provided by Keystone was 14,140 with a pin weight is not calculated only the spec weight is provided at 2,835lbs

Below is the email they sent me

The shipping weight for your unit is 14, 140


The configuration is:
Exterior Decor - Montana: Full Body Paint (Sahara Stone)
Residential Living Package
Montana Four Season Living Package
20th Anniversary Edition
Montana Legacy Upgrade Package
Decor - Montana 2019: Champagne
6 Point Hydraulic Auto Leveling
Residential Refrigerator w/Ice Maker
King Bed
RVIA Seal - Go Camping
State Seal: blank/none
Commercial Drivers License Transport


Have a great day.

Owner Relations Advisor
Keystone RV/Dutchmen & Crossroads Manufacturing

[CADman_KS]

There was a lot of great discussion in this post, particulary at the beginning.

As you know (if you've gotten this far), we did end up with a 3500 SRW, after crunching all of the numbers.

With the wife and I in the cab, and all of the stuff in the truck, we are about 100 pounds from the plate. When we take my mom, we're over, but that's only about once a year, so no big deal.

The pin weight on our 5er is a weighed and known 2840, and it won't ever really be more than that, because we have a HUGE basement slide out storage, and most of our stuff is behind the axle.

Here is a pic of the truck hooked up to the 5er. I forgot to measure it, but it's probably about an 1" lower in the back than level. So it's not that far off. If I need to, I'll get some Timbrens:



The angle of these pictures can really be decieving. Here's the same place, but a differnt angle, and it doens't look that far off:



I don't think that the lot was quite level there, and when we stopped for supper on a really flat level spot, the whole rig really looked like it was setting pretty close to the correct stance.

Impressions of the truck so far in general...

• Generally speaking, it rides nice for a 3500.
• Getting decent fuel economy, overall MPG in the low 15's after 4000 miles, which is mostly NON-towing, but does include a 400 mile trip pulling a 4000 lb trailer. 15MPG on my '02 was a really really good day
• Love the looks, style, SIZE of the truck (it is HUGE)
• Love the power of the truck! It is not as fast as our last SUV (Mercedes AMG GLE43), but for as heavy as it is, it gets with it!
• Think that GM skimped on some techy stuff like knowing what gear you're in, and what the turbo temp is, etc. They have a nice info center, but could give you a lot more info
• LOVE the 10 speed. Very very smooth shifting. Almost unnoticeable. In fact some people complain about how smooth it is. (see below)

Towing...

I towed a 4000 lb enclosed trailer about a month back for the first time, and while the truck towed nice, it wasn't really anything spectacular or out of the ordinary. I don't think I could really tell a difference between my '02 and the '20, but this was a lightweight trailer.

Impressions of towing 5er for the first time...

• WOW! What a beast
• GREAT power. With that being said, I can't even imagine what the new Fords are like with even MORE power
• No issues getting on on ramps
• Brakes seemed good to me. Some have complained about this, but I didn't notice anything subpar
• The camera views are INCREDIBLE! The turn camera is really slick
• Pulled 70MPH all the way home, and the truck could maintain 10th gear up most hills, and never got below 8th for any hill. Mind you, it's relatively flat here, but my old truck would have shifted down at the SIGHT of a hill
• Transmission shifts HARD! For all you guys that think that the trans is too wimpy, hook 14,000 lbs up to your truck, and then see what it shifts like. I don't actually think that shifting soft normally is an issue, and I don't think that shifting hard when towing is a big deal either. It just makes the shifts quick
• Didn't really notice any more bucking than we've experienced before. I think that the 3500 springs level some of that out. It was there at times, but not annoying

All-in-all, we are really loving this truck, and looking forward to pulling the 5er with it. It will be a welcome change over the '02 that we were pulling with...

[Montana Man]

1. It doesn't get 15 mpg.

2. It appears from the picture that the trailer is hitched way toward the rear of the bed like on a slider hitch slid to the rear.

[RMcNeal]

I noticed it looks like the pin sits far behind the rear axle too. May be just an optical illusion, but does seem strange.

[CADman_KS]

Originally Posted by Montana Man

1. It doesn't get 15 mpg.

...

It ABSOLUTELY is getting 15 MPG HAND CALCULATED when not towing. I keep track of every fill up. It has gotten as high as 16.4 on a tank.

The information center is showing 15.7MPG since the truck was new, which includes everything, and I'm not using that number...

[RMcNeal]

15 MPG when not towing is very believable. I used to get about that in my '14 F350 before modifications (egr and dpf). Now I get about 21 MPG around town not towing, 24-26 on highway not towing and 12-15 MPG while towing depending on terrain.

[Dave W]

Good report. Sounds like a great choice for you.



That king pin others noted looks about right if it's positioned directly below the furthest front cap point as our HC.


Is that 15mpg hooked up ur no trailer. If hooked, you have a winner!


Good luck

[CADman_KS]

Originally Posted by Montana Man

...

2. It appears from the picture that the trailer is hitched way toward the rear of the bed like on a slider hitch slid to the rear.

Originally Posted by RMcNeal

I noticed it looks like the pin sits far behind the rear axle too. May be just an optical illusion, but does seem strange.

Yes, it is sitting behind the axle.

I don't know if you're familiar with the 2020 GM's, but the SB's are 2" behind the axle from the factory. The hitch that I'm using puts that another 3-4" back (I'm at 4"), so I'm 6" behind the axle.

I don't know if you saw my post on how I got to this point, but here it is:

https://www.montanaowners.com/forums...&postcount=118

Also, for anyone using an Andersen in a 2020 GM SB, they will be about the same distance behind the axle as well...

[RMcNeal]

Interesting...How do you like the Andersen Hitch? Also, do you have the factory prep or is the hitch setup aftermarket? I had the factory prep in mine.

[CADman_KS]

Originally Posted by RMcNeal

15 MPG when not towing is very believable. I used to get about that in my '14 F350 before modifications (egr and dpf). Now I get about 21 MPG around town not towing, 24-26 on highway not towing and 12-15 MPG while towing depending on terrain.

We have a lot of short trips, so that kills our mileage.

We have gotten 22, for a distance, on an all highway trip, but that was just once...

[CADman_KS]

Originally Posted by RMcNeal

Interesting...How do you like the Andersen Hitch? Also, do you have the factory prep or is the hitch setup aftermarket? I had the factory prep in mine.

LOL. So I actually do NOT have an Andersen. I have a PullRite 3900. It is a conventional 5th wheel hitch, that attaches to the gooseball.

I have a slider up to this point, and while I LOVE the slider, if you don't need it, it's complicated and heavy, and most importantly, it requires a plate that makes your 5th wheel attachment non-standard.

With all of that being said, this hitch doesn't have any of that. Not bagging on Andersen, because I have no reason to believe that they are bad hitches, they have the same limitation, that your 5th wheel attachment becomes non-standard. Yes, you can take the pin adapter off there, but you have to take that off there if someone else ever wanted to tow your camper for whatever reason.

All-in-all, I like the PullRite 3900...

[RMcNeal]

Oh, I was curious about the Andersen because of the weight. I have the B&W Companion for the Ford puck system now and it is a great hitch. Just very heavy, even in 2 pieces. Had open heart surgery about a year ago and now trying to lift 150 lbs. in and out of the bed is difficult.

[CADman_KS]

Originally Posted by RMcNeal

Oh, I was curious about the Andersen because of the weight. I have the B&W Companion for the Ford puck system now and it is a great hitch. Just very heavy, even in 2 pieces. Had open heart surgery about a year ago and now trying to lift 150 lbs. in and out of the bed is difficult.

I seriously considered the Andersen, and I searched out other options, because I didn't want to have that adapter on my fifth wheel.

I haven't weighed it, but I'm guessing that the base of the PullRite 3900 weighs about a 100 pounds, maybe a little more, so I don't know if that helps you much.

The Andersen is definitely the king of weights, for sure. If I was in your shoes, I would place health over all other reasons for getting a hitch...

[CADman_KS]

Originally Posted by Dave W

...


Is that 15mpg hooked up ur no trailer. If hooked, you have a winner!


...

Unhooked, for sure. I'll go back and clarify my last post...

[MikeRP]

First of all congratulations on your new truck! She’s a beauty.

Just a thought for consideration, I’ve seen 4 GMC Denali’s 2500’s towing large Montana’s and Cedar Creeks. Not one of them was below level in the rear. Now these trucks were 2016-2018’s. I was seriously impressed with this since they just seemed to look perfect. My Ram even though it’s an inch to 0.5 inch high in the rear appears to be slightly squatted.

But I don’t understand that look in a 3500 Chevy. Once I towed my trailer, by not paying attention in the maneuvering position, for about 200 miles, I didn’t even notice it till I stopped at a rest area.

So I’m sure this setup on a Chevy 3500 you wouldn’t notice any problem towing. But it should not appear squatted.

I would do some more looking at that issue and try to get it back to no more than 2inches behind the axle.

I would look at towing in your book. Ram prefers that you tow the Aisin in 5th gear, tow haul on. I’d check that on the Chevy. I would think they’d want your towing down a few gears. Although, for both of us at this weight it probably doesn’t matter.

The other thing is, I have a 46 gal ati tank and the B&W companion slider. And encore bed cover, That’s another 600 lbs. I did upgrade my tires at 40000 miles to 295/70/R18’s which give another 880 lbs of capacity. So my truck is running at 12,000 lbs w 14,500 lbs of trailer. The tires, at 20%, would give you rough numbers an additional 4000 lbs of payload.

Don’t get upset everyone, just gives me some safety margin on those rear tires since I’m pretty close to the axle rating of 7000 lbs.

In the end I would not let that truck be anything below level towing and I’m sure you known the options to fix that issue.

Peace and stay safe!

Mike

[BiggarView]

CADman KS, I find it hard to believe you are only 2800 lbs on the pin, especially if you are FT. If not... nevermind. Still, if you are about 100 lbs under plate that means you are about 17.5% pin to trailer weight which could create some potential towing conditions when it comes to RV fiver towing. Especially with SRW truck. It's not a gooseneck flatbed trailer with low frontal area to deal with if you know what I mean.

[CADman_KS]

Mike,

Thanks for reply. I personally don't mind having these civil conversations, and that's the way that we all learn, so THANKS!

Originally Posted by MikeRP

First of all congratulations on your new truck! She’s a beauty.

...

We like it. Not everyone does, and that's fine. When I first showed the new trucks to mama back in early summer last year, she immediately said that she liked it, and we never saw one in person BEFORE we bought ours!

Originally Posted by MikeRP

...

Just a thought for consideration, I’ve seen 4 GMC Denali’s 2500’s towing large Montana’s and Cedar Creeks. Not one of them was below level in the rear. Now these trucks were 2016-2018’s. I was seriously impressed with this since they just seemed to look perfect. My Ram even though it’s an inch to 0.5 inch high in the rear appears to be slightly squatted.

But I don’t understand that look in a 3500 Chevy. Once I towed my trailer, by not paying attention in the maneuvering position, for about 200 miles, I didn’t even notice it till I stopped at a rest area.

So I’m sure this setup on a Chevy 3500 you wouldn’t notice any problem towing. But it should not appear squatted.


...

So, I have no first hand knowledge of prior years, because we went from a 2002 to a 2020!

All I know is that the RATINGS on the 2020's are up signfigantly over the prior years. I don't know if that means that they improved the springs or what???

What we also don't know, is if those prior year people had air bags on. I installed air bags on my 2002 2500 (way way under rated!), and I could get that thing as level or higher if I wanted.

I do need to measure what the overall squat is, but I think that I'm only about an 1" below level, and if that's the case, I'm not too concerned about it.

To the comment about not squatted at all, the pin weight on our 5er is close to 3000 pounds. That's a LOT to put in the bed of the truck!

I forgot to get a measurement hooked up yesterday, but I'll do that the next time that we are hooked up, so that I know what it starts at, and what it is at hooked up, and get a feel for where level is.

Originally Posted by MikeRP

...

I would look at towing in your book. Ram prefers that you tow the Aisin in 5th gear, tow haul on. I’d check that on the Chevy. I would think they’d want your towing down a few gears. Although, for both of us at this weight it probably doesn’t matter.

...

I'm under the opinion that if I put the truck in Tow/Haul mode, it's smart enough that it can figure out what gear it wants or needs to be in, so I'm going to leave it there.

Funny thing about that was that yesterday while towing, we were running at about 165deg tranny temp, which is nothing. I took it out of tow/haul and the temp went DOWN!, not up like it expected it too.

At the end of the day, the 10 speed transmissions in the Ford and GM are the ULTIMATE towing setup. In the GM, if it needs to shift down one gear, it does that, and your RPM's don't go from 2000 to 2500. It's able to manage that a lot better, and engine RPM's are much more tamed because of it.

[Montana Man]

Originally Posted by CADman_KS

It ABSOLUTELY is getting 15 MPG HAND CALCULATED when not towing. I keep track of every fill up. It has gotten as high as 16.4 on a tank.

The information center is showing 15.7MPG since the truck was new, which includes everything, and I'm not using that number...

I assumed that was a towing mpg. My bad.

Would like to see a pic of the hitch setup in the bed. If that hitch point could move forward, it may help with leveling the truck.