overloaded maybe?

[ep4me]

Not sure if we are more informed or more self concerned with doing the right thing based on previous discussion about sizing tow vehicles on this forum, but as a sit here in a big camp ground in the Midwest i see things that make me think about things. Maybe much to do about nothing but when a see bumbler pull trailers that are 35 feet plus pulled by a half ton or 18 foot campers pulled by a front wheel drive suv i start to wonder about gvwr and towing capacity, not sure what to think, granted i am a couple of bourbons in this post so take it for what its worth but make me wonder?

[Mikendebbie]

The idiots out there can overcome inertia and TOW with just about anything.
But you better get out of the way when it’s time to STOP!

[RMcNeal]

Agree with Mike. When you start towing the weight of our Montanas, stopping is more important than going. Most don't even think about that. I've seen too many on the road with the tail wagging the dog.

[MandK]

Took this picture at our marina a few weeks ago.
It’s not just campers.
Bad things can happen to anyone, but I think things like this jack up the odds quite a bit and are really something to stay plenty clear of. The Porche is rated to tow 7k ish, I know his boat weighed more. I hope the hydraulic surge brakes work better than the ones I had years ago when I trailered boats.
Nice car and trailer though.

[mhs4771]

A few years ago there was a pretty good size Tow Hauler across from us being pulled by a 1/2 Ton Pickup, don't remember the make but sure looked big for that tow.

[twindman]

I was thinking I was overloaded a couple of weeks ago. Going down a long gradual hill my serpentine belt broke -leaving me with no power steering or brakes!!!! Fortunately there was only one slight curve I was able to muscle around and gradually slowed to an almost stop. Pulled off into the only small turnout for a mile and had about 4 feet left when I had stopped completely. A little scary.

[jsb5717]

When you say “overloaded” are you talking about your own set up or quantity of bourbon?

[AZ Traveler]

Thinking too much can be expensive and dangerous.

[mlh]

A property equipped 1/2 ton truck is rated to tow over 13000 pounds. But what does that mean? Would you feel safe towing 13000 pounds with 1/2 ton truck or 30000 pound with ton truck. These 1/2 ton trucks may have been within their rated limits. J2808 tow specs really don’t mean much. A DRW truck is testing at a lower speed than a SRW truck. That doesn’t make much sense to me. Before you think of them as the holy grail do a Google search and see much sense they make to you. Most of the time a little common sense with go a long way to keep you safe.
Lynwood

[Cat320]

Comparing a pull behind and a 5th wheel when it comes to towing is an apples to oranges comparison...the pin weight changes everything.

[brycesteiner]

Originally Posted by Cat320

.the pin weight changes everything.

Cat can you explain this or post a link? I'm new to fifth wheels and I've heard that but not sure I understand this properly.

Also, I've pulled my tractor/backhoe (25HP) with a 2 axle utility trailer pulled by a Dodge Grand Caravan down i75. I've had some sway issues at first but there is some serious learning. Keeping the weight balanced and a little to the front, Keep your center of gravity low makes a big difference. The best thing just so happened to be adding a weight distribution hitch. The sway went away.
It also does very well when pulling with my Dodge RAM 2500. With the WDH you don't even notice it's back there.

BTW I'm not recommending pulling a trailer with the Dodge Grand Caravan, but it has not failed me even in the mountains.

[Lee-CI]

Originally Posted by brycesteiner

Cat can you explain this or post a link? I'm new to fifth wheels and I've heard that but not sure I understand this properly.

Also, I've pulled my tractor/backhoe (25HP) with a 2 axle utility trailer pulled by a Dodge Grand Caravan down i75. I've had some sway issues at first but there is some serious learning. Keeping the weight balanced and a little to the front, Keep your center of gravity low makes a big difference. The best thing just so happened to be adding a weight distribution hitch. The sway went away.
It also does very well when pulling with my Dodge RAM 2500. With the WDH you don't even notice it's back there.

BTW I'm not recommending pulling a trailer with the Dodge Grand Caravan, but it has not failed me even in the mountains.

Typically the hitch weight on a bumper pull trailer is around 10% of gross weight of the trailer. Hitch wait on a fifthwheel trailer is upwards of 23% or more of the gross trailer weight. This means considerably more weight directly above the tow vehicle rear axle when pulling a fifthwheel or gooseneck rig

[Theunz]

Would I feel safe towing at the factory recommend max limits? Yes IF the conditions were ideal! Ideal means good weather conditions, reasonable speeds, tow vehicle in top condition AND trailer properly loaded, quality tires, and trailer brakes capable of locking up at when using brake controller set at max. Now, everyone knows, or should know, that maximum braking occurs just before lockup and once locked up stopping ability diminishes substantially, so you adjust your controller accordingly. Can you smoke your tires at hi way speeds with your electric brakes? I couldn’t even at slow speeds, that’s why I went to disc brakes.
Keep in mind that you can get in just as much trouble towing well under manufacturers limits if your trailer is not set up properly. The manufacturer can only control that the tow vehicle is capable, it’s up to YOU to ascertain that the trailer is too.

[dfb]

There was a FATAL Accident about 2 years ago in Carson City. A guy was Pulling a Huge boat, maybe 35 feet.. He was using a Ford Powerstroke Diesel. It was Plain that this boat should have been towed by a Professional Commercial Tower with a Big Rig Truck.. The tower was towing the Boat down Spooner Summit. The Light at the bottom was Red and he could not stop the truck and trailer Plowing into several cars in the intersection..Several people lost their lives...

[bshgto]

Originally Posted by dfb

There was a FATAL Accident about 2 years ago in Carson City. A guy was Pulling a Huge boat, maybe 35 feet.. He was using a Ford Powerstroke Diesel. It was Plain that this boat should have been towed by a Professional Commercial Tower with a Big Rig Truck.. The tower was towing the Boat down Spooner Summit. The Light at the bottom was Red and he could not stop the truck and trailer Plowing into several cars in the intersection..Several people lost their lives...

It`s impossible to defend yourself against people like this. I see them too and just shake my head. It`s usually an issue with money or the wife and trying to get her to let you spend another $80,000- dollars on a truck for one of your play toys. If your going to play you have to pay...........

[Moondragon]

But but but, the SALESPERSON said it would be OK!!!

[DABOO77]

Hello all and here is my 2 cents worth. As a 40 year career mechanic / shop owner and someone who has pulled rv's of all types for the past 30 years. I do sell and install truck accessories which include receiver trailer hitch / fifth wheel / gooseneck hitch's and pretty much anything you can bolt on to a light duty truck. Now the one thing I can say is to outfit your rig to handle the task at hand. Proper trailer brake -with functioning trailer brakes and a breakaway switch setup. Weight distribution hitch and anti sway bars as needed for a bumper pull application. Heavier ply rated tires, especially for the 1/2 ton trucks - yes tire sidewall flex will contribute to trailer sway. And lets not forget about a good set of air bags in the rear. The air bags are just as important as gas in the tank. Air bags will help properly distribute the load back to the front axle, get YOUR headlights back on the road, helps get your steering feel back and most of all help your braking - remember your front brakes on any vehicle do the majority of the stopping.

When it comes to the tail wagging the dog - even the most experienced will have trouble overcoming the problem-literally only a split second decision as your holding on for a bad ride. Accelerate the tow vehicle and apply full trailer brake with the controller to straighten out. Then slowly pull over check everything out, clean your pants and SLOW DOWN. Just because you can pull a trailer at 70 mph, dosn't mean you should.

[kowbra]

Originally Posted by ep4me

Not sure if we are more informed or more self concerned with doing the right thing based on previous discussion about sizing tow vehicles on this forum, but as a sit here in a big camp ground in the Midwest i see things that make me think about things. Maybe much to do about nothing but when a see bumbler pull trailers that are 35 feet plus pulled by a half ton or 18 foot campers pulled by a front wheel drive suv i start to wonder about gvwr and towing capacity, not sure what to think, granted i am a couple of bourbons in this post so take it for what its worth but make me wonder?

Definitely a "loaded" question

... some background from our rural area of western Canada; there are a lot of pickups everywhere here; farmers, construction, oil and gas, etc AND we also have hundreds of lakes within a few hours drive. Every weekend, you will see 3/4 ton class trucks towing a mid size 5th wheel with a large boat behind. I don't think I've ever seen any of those in the ditch or upside down on the road. OTOH, I've seen lots of longer hitch type trailers get blown over when being pulled by shorter wheel based SUV's or even half tons... but back to the discussion of Montana 5th wheels...

Here's some things that we should rule out right away:
-no one should consider towing a 5th wheel the size of a Montana with a 1/2 ton class truck
-some may consider towing the shortest/smallest Montana HC units with a 3/4 ton truck, but will likely be overloaded on the truck payload or rear axle ratings. It would not be advisable to tow the larger Montana rigs with a 3/4 ton class truck.

Where the debate can rage is when the discussion is between which 1 ton class truck to choose, and whether a SRW (single rear wheel) is adequate, or a DRW (dual rear wheel or "dually") is required:
-on the larger Montana units when pulling with a 1 ton SRW, it is possible that many of the numbers work, but often the overall payload of the truck is exceeded
-OTOH, the same model of SRW and DRW often use similar components; the braking systems may use the same components, and the suspensions may be the same and sometimes even the size and rating of the rear differential is the same.

So, what is the practical difference between SRW and DRW? 2 extra tires, duh. Obviously, 4 tires on the rear axle can carry more weight than can 2 tires. And, 4 tires provide a wider stance so can reduce side to side swaying motion.

But, let's dispel some other notions here:
-does 4 tires on the rear axle mean better stopping than 2 tires (all other things being equal)? Like many things in life, the answer is "it depends". The ground pressure is actually higher with less tires (simple math, lbs/sq inch is higher). So stopping on any surface that compromises grip (such as rain, sleet, snow) could favour the SRW. However, any stopping that exerts a sideways motion to the rear of the truck may favour the DRW as the truck will more likely track straighter during the braking maneuver. (ok, complete sidebar here... on a larger trailer the upgrade to disc brakes will greatly improve the stopping ability of the overall rig; this alone is a far greater improvement for stopping than the SRW vs DRW discussion, and IMHO is an upgrade all should consider)
-does exceeding the rated payload of the truck mean that the rear tires and rear axle on an SRW are also exceeding their ratings? Again, it depends. When considering all of the math, it is possible to exceed the payload rating of the truck yet still be well within the margins of safety and the weight ratings of the 2 rear tires, and the rear suspension, and the rear axle ratings.
-will insurance void coverage if a truck has exceeded any of the weight ratings? This is a consideration for commercial haulers, but is not clear for private hauling. It will certainly vary by the laws of your area and your insurance provider, but for those who are certain this is an issue, I've not seen anyone provide evidence of denial for these reasons. (to be clear, I'm not advising overloading at all, rather that this notion doesn't seem to have evidence to back it up).

AND YET, none of the above touches on the discussion that some will only feel safe towing a heavy Montana with a medium duty truck or even a class 7 or 8 highway tractor. Those who go this route can articulate why even a DRW pickup can have loads applied that exceed some of the weight ratings, and only by going to a heavier truck will they feel safe.

Ok, TLDR? For Montana class 5th wheels (esp larger models) here are my recommendations ...
-tow with a 1 ton SRW minimum
-consider a 1 ton DRW which will provide more capacity and more side to side stability
-while either class may work, the best is to educate oneself on all of the numbers then do the math to make sure you have not exceeded the ratings (GVWR, GCWR, RAWR, Payload for truck and for trailer, size of brakes, size of rear differential... just to name a few)
-if you are not experienced with towing heavy, the best thing you can do is find hands-on training. Any rig, overloaded or not, is a dangerous weapon if not driven within safe limits (weight, speed, traffic separation, control, surface conditions, etc)
-final piece of the puzzle, if you just "go bigger" will your wife/partner drive the truck to go shopping while you are busy working on the rig at the campground? Mine will not drive the largest rigs and this was a factor in truck choice.

No "one size fits all", but hopefully the above gives some perspective and some suggestions on how to find the right truck for your needs.

Brad

[beeje]

I will through in my 2 cents.
Its not about how much any truck/suv can tow. It has everything to do with the payload capacity or the tow vehicle. If one is overloaded, its more than likely going to be the payload and or the rear tires that are overloaded. The vast majority of heavy fifth wheels (say 15k+) that are being towed with ANY 3/4 ton truck are overloaded just by comparing the trucks yellow door jamb sticker and the camper's info label. Hell, if i load my dually up with firewood and a truck full of people then load up the camper's front storage with heavy stuff, im overweight.

[mlh]

will insurance void coverage if a truck has exceeded any of the weight ratings? This is a consideration for commercial haulers, but is not clear for private hauling

The answer to this question is no.
I ask my agent and she called Allstate. They told her you would be covered. Think about it. If they could deny coverage they would never cover if you when you were over weight, drinking, spending, run a red light a stop sign. If you have insurance they must cover you.
Lynwood