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Old 01-26-2006, 03:53 PM   #21
richfaa
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Montana Sky

Well I am in agreement with Dusty... somewhat. I have approx. 1,750 lbs of "stuff" in my coach and still have enough cc for another approx. 450 lbs of "stuff". Since I use the coach mainly as a lake cabin there is alot of "stuff" for the boat and lake in that weight. The only things from home I do not have in the coach are some personal items and more of the closet in terms of clothes. If I were to head out and "fulltime" I bet I could do it... But then again I am single, so I guess that means there is no room for another person!! ????.....
But how much does the 3400 weigh with that 1750lbs in it???
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Old 01-26-2006, 04:00 PM   #22
rickfox
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Good Evening Folks,

Time for me to put in my 2 cents.

On Nov. 12 we took posession of our 2006 3400RL. It had the following additional options:

1) Free standing table and 5 chairs
2) Ceiling fan
3) Fireplace
4) Wired for 2nd AC - did not get until I'm sure we need it - extra 100#
5) 4 slide awnings - I love them!
6) End table, lamp and coffee table
7) Hide a bed
8) Prep for W/D, Outside shower, selector valves (get this option)

We did not get hi-gloss gelcoat and did not get dual pane windows - because we felt they would add too much weight.

Our first stop was the CAT scale. The results were:

Hitch weight: 1980#
Trailer axle weights: 9880#
Trailer total weight: 11860#
GVWR as per sticker on outside left: 14,190#
Available cargo capacity: 2330# actual

Note that the above trailer weight also included a battery, about 5 gallons of water, and 2 full propane tanks.

On our first trip, after we moved our goodies from our old 5ver, we reweighed:

Hitch pin weight: 2400#
Trailer Axle weight: 10500#
Total trailer weight: 12900#
Cargo on board: 1040#

Interesting factoids are as follows:

1) I had estimated our cargo at 1500#. I guessed high as you can see. I had very little room left in the basement. I had 2 batteries, a 9' rubber boat with motor and a bunch of wood parts, 2 fold up tables, chairs, 2 bikes, and plenty of other goodies. I was perhaps a little lite on clothes as we do not carry enough to full time.

2) With the added cargo, the hitch pin weight grew from 1980# to 2400# or 420#. A quick calculation shows that 4# of every 10# of cargo shows up on the pin weight. This is true because essentially all the cargo space on the 3400 is ahead of the axles. At least for the 3400, the idea that the hitch will carry only 20% (2# of every 10#) of additional cargo is not true - its more like 40%. This will cause the pin weight to go up very quickly - especially it you start loading up the front closet.

3) When you calculate things up, you can not carry much more than 2300# before exceeding the max. rear axle weight if the TV is a 3/4 ton truck (and by the way, you have already exceeded the GVWR of the TV). But that doesn't matter much because I could only add 2330# cargo before I exceeded the GVWR of the trailer. But that didn't even seem to matter, because I don't think I could find places for another 1290# of cargo, unless they were rocks.

4) The weight of the trailer and the options does matter. Adding and additional 1200# to a Monty by installing hi-gloss fiberglass and dual pane windows significantly limits the carrying capacity of the trailer.

5) If your TV is a 3/4 ton, you can forget about carrying much additional stuff in the bed such as extra cargo, a tool box full of goodies, or an extra fuel tank. The unloaded rear axle weight on my 2500HD weight in at 3120#. leaving only 2964# of pin weigh before the rear axle/tires are overloaded - and that's easily what the pin weight of a fully loaded 3400 will be.

I MIGHT can imagine carrying 2300 - 2400# of stuff - not including water - but for the 2 or us and our 2 dogs, that's about it.

Others may carry more, but this works for us. And by the way, these are actual measured weights. I have spent enough on CAT scale measurements to deserve a reasonable percentage of ownership in the one in Rockwall, TX.

So much for my 2 cents!
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Old 01-26-2006, 04:41 PM   #23
Montana Sky
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Rich,
Here are my numbers, these are by memory so they might be a few pounds off, but are close.

Kingpin 2,100
Rear axles 11,250
Coach GVWR 13,350

Of course if I took all the lake equipment out of the picture the weight would be less, allowing for additional stuff to be put in the coach.

Dave~
These numbers for me include all the standard furniture including, coffee table, extra computer desk chair, 4-table chairs in dinning room, two fans, space heater, lawn chairs and all the normal stuff you have to have to live, eat, cook, clean and so on. I do not have high-gloss, but will have the 2nd a/c added in April. This weight also includes 60 gals of fresh water, battery, 2 full propane bottles, hoses, electric cords and so on. It is everything. I know that everyone is different, just wanted to give you something to compare.
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Old 01-26-2006, 08:25 PM   #24
dsprik
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Dave, do you have dual pane windows?
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Old 01-26-2006, 08:57 PM   #25
Montana Sky
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Dave,
No dual pane windows on my coach.

I was not sure about them and was talking with the Keystone rep when I ordered my coach. He said he did not see a reason I would need or want them. Especially since my coach is in the garage all winter. I am curious about them anyway, I know one of the biggest reasons motor homes and Prevost bus' have them is for sound proofing while on the road. Why would you need them in a fifth wheel? Is there really that great of a benefit over the single pane? Or would you be better spending the money on the Hi-gloss exterior...
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Old 01-27-2006, 01:03 AM   #26
Wrenchtraveller
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If you never use your rig in below freezing temperatures, you really don't need dual pane windows but I have lived in RVs with both window types in freezing weather and there is no comparison in the comfort level if you like wearing short sleeved T-shirts like I do.

Most places you sit in an RV are close to a window and single panes are just cooler windows, plain and simple. Yes, you can put on a sweater or close the shades if you enjoy sitting in the dark.
I enjoy sitting next to an uncovered window that does not give off cool air so for me double pane is worth the weight and the expense. Everyone has different needs but up here in Canada it is much easier to sell a used unit with double pane windows. Four months ago, I sold my 03 Okanagan slide in Camper with double pane windows to the first caller and I got many calls after that.Single pane slide in Campers are very difficult to sell as most people that buy these units are skiiers like I was and we want a warm place to relax after a day on the slopes.
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Old 01-27-2006, 06:47 AM   #27
dsprik
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I will be in below freezing weather in N. MI in late fall, early winter. I believe some mentioned that condensation in cool weather was a problem with single panes. Another issue someone here posted on, was the efficiency of dual pane windows in HOT weather. Easier to keep cool with the A/C. Another plus.

The noise reduction issue, while in an otherwise noisy CG, was a huge plus to my wife (and me). We have camped in tents and pop up campers for years. Always said we would strive to camp with a hard sided camper, as the noise level, especially early in the morning as campers start pulling out around 6-7 am, was an issue for us. When I'm on vacation (or retired), I go to bed when I want and I get up when I want - not when the neighbor decides he needs to fire up his diesel, start rigging down, and start yelling at the wife for something that was his fault in the first place (non-MOCers, I'm sure). Some of you are heavy sleepers - we are not.

When I mentioned that dual pane windows help with noise reduction, she said, "We're getting them."

*On Edit~ Does anyone have any info on the weight difference between the single pane and dual pane glass?
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Old 01-27-2006, 12:00 PM   #28
richfaa
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Hummm Using Rick fox numbers and his 3400 would be except for the 2nd A/c exactly the same as ours...The 06 numbers for the 3400 are weight 11650 CC 2325 Total 13,975..,If you added the gel coat and the dual pane windows (1200lbs) that brings the weight up to 14,200..that would be 225lbs over weight. Note he did not get the gen prep or the generator or the actual washer dryer. Which would add more to the overweight number..I would ask why Keystone would not have a warning of some kind to the effect that certain combinations of options MAY result in exceeding the weight limitations of the unit??? I would not feel comfortable pushing the limits like that..as much as I would like the gel coat.We will not order it..or the dual pane windows..And I think Keystone deliberately does not provide the weights for these options and we will have a heart to heart talk with the Keystone rep at the RV show on the subject.
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Old 01-27-2006, 12:19 PM   #29
Wrenchtraveller
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I like the Keystone product but if you could choose the one area they fall down, it is the payload capacity of their coaches. My 2955RL should have 6000 pound axles and a GVWR of 14000 pounds not 5000 pound axles and a 12000 pound GVWR and the larger models should have bigger axles again.

We almost bought a 29 foot Sandpiper by Forest River, although a much cheaper coach than a Montana, it did have a 14000 pound GVWR and a much bigger payload. I think my 2955RL will fill our needs if we pack it wisely but I would have liked more payload.
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Old 01-27-2006, 12:36 PM   #30
richfaa
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I think the weight issue, once you have the data, is manageable. I am sort of put out that the data is not readily available to us . We can choose the option we want that will fall within OUR CC capicity..everything is a trade off.. But I absolutly agree with you.
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Old 01-27-2006, 01:10 PM   #31
dsprik
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Rich, I have some reservations about that 600 # ADDITIONAL weight for dual pane glass, over the standard glass - maybe 600 # total for ALL of the glass...

I have emailed Bill this afternoon with my list of options, and I asked him to respond to this weight concern. I also asked him to specifically comment on the dual pane windows.

Since I did not hear anything so far tonight, it will probably be tomorrow, before we get his input.
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Old 01-27-2006, 02:34 PM   #32
richfaa
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Spoke to Bill Tea today.I was on a charter to Toledo and had some time. The 3400 on his lot is not the upgraded model but he expects one in the 1st of Feb.He will call me when it arrives and Helen and I will drive up and take a look..She needs to pick the interior colors and it will give me a chance to ask some of the questions we are talking about.
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Old 01-27-2006, 03:26 PM   #33
snfexpress
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From RickFox:

Hitch weight: 1980#
Trailer axle weights: 9880#
Trailer total weight: 11860#
GVWR as per sticker on outside left: 14,190#
Available cargo capacity: 2330# actual

Note that the above trailer weight also included a battery, about 5 gallons of water, and 2 full propane tanks.

On our first trip, after we moved our goodies from our old 5ver, we reweighed:

Hitch pin weight: 2400#
Trailer Axle weight: 10500#
Total trailer weight: 12900#
Cargo on board: 1040#


We purchased a 2006 3400RL, but have not taken delivery yet as we are waiting on our 2006 3500 Diesel Duramax 1 ton TV.

We did purchase the high gloss option as well as the slide toppers, so using RickFox's numbers, I'm getting a little worried:

This is from Keystone's website:

Weight: 11,650
Carrying Capacity: 2,325
Hitch: 1,975
Length: 37' 9"

This is from their Digital Literature for 2006 3400RL (the brochure that we were given by Charles, the Keystone Rep):

Weight: 11,380
Carrying Capacity: 2,390
Hitch: 1,770
Length: 37' 1"

And, the Brochure has an asterisk stating that High Gloss option will add approximately 600 lbs. So, the numbers are more like:

Weight: 12,250
Carry Capacity: 1,940 if RickFox's GVWR sticker is the same as mine
Carry Capacity: 2,325 - 600 = 1,725 if we use the website numbers
Hitch: 2,215 (Using RickFox's 40% rule, if I got it right)

If the total GVW is 14,190, and we add 60 gallons of water at 8# per gallon (Actually, 1 Gallons [US] = 8.3452641 Pounds), we now have a carrying capacity of just 1,880? And when I put the extra A/C in (at 100#), I'm left with only 1,780??? Now, my wife only weighs 135, but I top in at 290! Does this mean I'll break the axles, camping, if I have more than 1,355# of stuff (including food, slide toppers, propane, and extra battery...)? Oh, not to mention my 80# dog!

I got to thinking when I was reading this post and so decided to look at Keystone's website. Notice that in the brochure they list the specifications as being VERY different from their website. In fact, they are the 2005 3400RL specifications number for number off their website.

FYI, I remember Charles Wade, the Keystone Rep, telling me I could carry 3,000# of stuff, but that this was like adding a cut-up car to the trailer - his words, not mine. I have to say 3000 versus 1,355 is quite a disparity! When he told me this, we were sitting in the 3400RL I purchased. So, I made the decision that all would be okay in the world of weight. Was I wrong?

The salesman told me I only needed a 15,000# hitch. I decided on a 16,000# anyway. Is this okay?

Charles, you told me you monitor this site...Want to WEIGH in here?

I think I am now totally confused

Michael
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Old 01-27-2006, 04:03 PM   #34
dsprik
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by snfexpress
...If the total GVW is 14,190, and we add 60 gallons of water at 8# per gallon (Actually, 1 Gallons [US] = 8.3452641 Pounds), we now have a carrying capacity of just 1,880? And when I put the extra A/C in (at 100#), I'm left with only 1,780??? Now, my wife only weighs 135, but I top in at 290! Does this mean I'll break the axles, camping, if I have more than 1,355# of stuff (including food, slide toppers, propane, and extra battery...)? Oh, not to mention my 80# dog!
You'll be OK sitting on site, as you will have your stabilizers, jacks, front legs down, etc - the frame is much better supported. It's moving down the road, and the resultant frame flex and stresses as you will encounter on rough roads (or any roads, I guess), that will be cause for concern, I would think.

Surely, there is some expert who can step up here and calm some of the fears that are cropping up all of a sudden. We are just not getting any consistent, solid data that we can base anything on.

How about this question: Has anyone ever done any damage to their Montana by specifically going over their CC? i.e. has a dealer ever assessed a damaged Montana and said, "The cause of this damage is strictly because you were way overloaded on your CC."?

MIMF, are you a resident expert on frames stresses and how Montana engineers rate these things?
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Old 01-27-2006, 04:29 PM   #35
Montana Sky
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The weight is your responsibility not Keystone's. In my opinion Keystone published the numbers in terms of dry weight for what the average coach and options are. It even states in two seperate locations in the brochure "DUE TO CONTINUOUS PRODUCT IMPROVEMENT, MODIFICATIONS MAY BE MADE WITHOUT PRIOR NOTIFICATION OR OBLIGATION. SPECIFICATIONS ARE CALCULATED AS BASE UNIT WITH STANDARD EQUIPMENT ONLY. How is Keystone or any rv maker possibly going to know exactly what each option weights? Not to mention that these options change size, style, brand and weight as the vendors improve them. Most options are made by second party suppliers, not Keystone. They provide us with the "base weight" and anything added beyond that is up to us. How and what you determine is necessary to have on the road has a give and take effect. The more "stuff" you put into your must have section, the less "options" you are going to get in return. The first thing I found when I went from the TT to my fifth wheel is I do not need all that stuff. I packed everything I could possibly think of in that baby. Do you need to have your entire winter/summer/spring/fall wardrobe x's 2 people in the closet and drawers? Does every item that is in our 3,000-5,000sq ft house have to be in the rv? Since most of the "fulltimers" seem to stay in a location for a week or longer, do you need to have a "full" pantry, full 60 gallons of fresh water on board? It only adds extra weight and if you are going to be plugged in tonight anyway, why carry it? Why not carry 1/4 tank of fresh water on board to flush toilet and wash hands while on the road and use the extra 350 lbs of weight for something else. If you are concerned about weight and want a generator, buy a portable one(cheaper) or buy two and carry them in your truck bed, or tool box if you have one. There are many options to "moving the weight" around... Be creative!!!
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Old 01-27-2006, 04:46 PM   #36
richfaa
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Don't care what anyone says or what anyone has done,,exceeding the GVWR is a BAD thing. Any thing that is said to justify doing that is a alibi.I was deciding on options for the 3400 we are ordering and realized that ..all these things weigh something and I wonder what they weigh and how would that effect what we can carry in the camper.The post by rickfox shows the numbers I could nor have or get ..He weighed a actual camper and reported the results. The answer is simple..you CAN exceed the GVWR if you do not select your options wisely.Anndd it is a bad thing that keystone does not advise buyers of that. However..I am Ok now..I can and have selected options that will satisfy our needs.. and will not exceed GVWR..in addition..some day a very bad thing will happen because a Montana was overload due to the owner not having access to the weight numbers and a very smart lawyer will grab hold of this and it will be a very bad day for Keystone Montana//annnddd
My bet is that this is common among other brands..
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Old 01-27-2006, 04:48 PM   #37
dsprik
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I don't know, Dave... I may have to disagree with you, respectfully, of course - because you're younger than me and you could kick my rear end.

I would think that any options the factory puts on would be the responsibility of that mfr then to publish the weights of these options. Anything after-market of course, is our responsibilty. I don't remember seeing any option weights published by Keystone/Montana, but someone is getting some numbers from somewhere, because I keep seeing them pop up occassionally.

Do you think we are over reacting a little, then? I really have heard both sides on how much you think you will end up with in you coach. Some have said the you would be surprised how little your stuff weighs, compared to what you thought. But I have also heard several - and not just on this forum - say that you would be surprised how your weight adds up very quickly, pushing CC limits when you thought you were quite safe.

I really don't want to have my Montana break in two on I-10. Because then I would have to say, "But, Dave said..."

Sorry, Dave. Just trying to make light of this situation. It is possible we are taking this too seriuosly. I don't know what to think... best bet, I think, is to just hang around this thread for a while and see what kind of comments we get.
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Old 01-27-2006, 05:08 PM   #38
Montana Sky
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I have never stated, or would state the overloading of a coach is ok, or would be ok, or should be ok. The GVWR of the coach is posted on every coach for a very specific reason. Back on page 3, I posted the weight of my coach. These numbers are with more stuff in there than I actually use.

"Here are my numbers, these are by memory so they might be a few pounds off, but are close."

Kingpin 2,100
Rear axles 11,250
Current coach 13,350
Coach GVWR 13,790

The point of my previous post is, how much you carry in either options or personal stuff is up to you. Keystone gives you the boundaries for each specific floorplan. Each one of us has to decide what is important to us as far as must have items, and must have options.

I have no problem with folks agreeing with me or not. I may be 26 and not as experienced as some, but the main reason I am here is to learn and gain knowledge from the folks who are willing to share with me and the rest of the group.

Dave,
I respect every single members opinion and am grateful that they share it with us. If our paths ever cross, you are always welcome to stop in for a cup of coffee or a beer. The door is open.... That also goes for any other MOC member....
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Old 01-27-2006, 05:12 PM   #39
carlson
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I think if you look at the rating for the axles on a 2005 3400RL they are 8,000 lbs.
So 8 pllus 8 give you 16,000 lbs axles rating.
Then look at the rating of your tires (5042 lbs) at proper inflation of 80 psi
5042 times 4 tires is a total of 20,168 lbs.
Then look at the rating of your tow vehicle
Chevy HD2500 capacity of 15,600 lbs for 5th wheel and with a total of 22,000 lbs.
So therefore if I look at my total trailer weight and the tongue weight, I came out at 19% of my weigfht is on the 5th wheel hitch.
So from all the data I have read you should be somewhere 18 to 20% tongue weight.
I am ok.
And to the point of going to double pane windows adding 600lbs to the coach weight I DON'T THINK SO!!!
And to Gel Coat weight added of 600 lbs, if you look at the square footage area on the outside of the coach and say with window and doors remove from the square footage, I would say to get 600 lbs by adding Gel Coat it would have to add atleast 1 pound per square foot, I DON"T THINK SO!!!
Also if you look at the weight of adding doule pane glass at said 600lbs, 600 lbs is 5% of the total weight of the coachm
Do you know what the frame weights, what does the plywood on the floor weight, what do the appliance weight, what do the slide mechanics weight.
That is why I question the spoken weight of 600 lbs each as questionable,
Just my thoughts!!!
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Old 01-27-2006, 05:16 PM   #40
dsprik
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That's a Plan, Dave! You have helped out immensely over these past 7 mos. The least I can do is to drink some of your coffee... I'll bring the doughnuts...

I thought you were 27? You get younger everytime you post... How do you do that??? I REALLY DO need to get over and drink some of your coffee!
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