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Old 10-19-2020, 08:38 AM   #1
dallasrules
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Wiring problems

I found a couple of wiring issues in our 2003 montana 5ver. I could use some advice.

First, there are two separate breaker boxes. One box looks like where the power comes in. It has a 20 amp and 30 amp breaker for 50 amp service. The ground wires are badly burned in this box. Two of the white neutral wires have the insulation bubbled and scorched. I am not sure when in the past this happened, the trailer is new to us. Does anyone know what could have caused this? It seems to be still making a good ground and the power is strong and steady. Do I need to fix this, and if so how? Should there be enough extra cord that I can just cut off the wire and reconnect it? The hot wires look fine, and all the wiring in the second breaker box looks good.

My second problem is in my dc fuse box. One of the connections on one fuse is loose. If there is a fuse in it, it holds it in place, but if you take the fuse out, it looks like it has been touching the other side and bridging the gap. It looks a little burned. I also noticed that this connection is putting out slightly less voltage than the other fuses. For example if the others are putting out12.25v this one would be at 12.15v. Is this enough to cause an issue? Again, how would you fix this? Would the whole fuse board have to be replaced? I am not sure what this fuse goes to. It is possible it goes to some of my outside lights that are not working (I thought due to bulbs). I haven't gotten a chance to check this out yet.
 
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Old 10-19-2020, 08:49 AM   #2
mhs4771
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A few things: A 20 amp and 30 amp breaker does not make for a 50 amp service. A 50 amp service box has TWO 50 amp breakers.
Sounds like your unit might have been originally a 30 amp service that someone modified without really knowing what they were doing. The overheated wires are probably a result of running to many higher power appliances at the same time.
I think it's time to call in the Heavy Guns and get an Electrician to see exactly has been done.
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Old 10-19-2020, 09:12 AM   #3
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[QUOTE=mhs4771;1201122]A few things: A 20 amp and 30 amp breaker does not make for a 50 amp service. A 50 amp service box has TWO 50 amp breakers.

The trailer has a 50 amp cord. As I understand it, One of the hot wires will power one breaker and the other hot wire will power the other breaker. The 20 amp breaker seems to controll the air conditioner. (There is only one.) The 30 amp breaker seems to carry everything else. The 20 and 30 amp breakers in the first box connect to a 30 and 30 amp breaker in the 2nd box. The 30 amp then powers 4 15 amp breakers which did confuse me because that equals 60 amps. The only heavy draw item we will be using is the microwave.
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Old 10-19-2020, 09:14 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhs4771 View Post
A few things: A 20 amp and 30 amp breaker does not make for a 50 amp service. A 50 amp service box has TWO 50 amp breakers.
Sounds like your unit might have been originally a 30 amp service that someone modified without really knowing what they were doing. The overheated wires are probably a result of running to many higher power appliances at the same time.
I think it's time to call in the Heavy Guns and get an Electrician to see exactly has been done.

If you are not real savvy on electrical she is giving you some really good advice!
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Old 10-19-2020, 09:16 AM   #5
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I hope these are the right pictures
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Old 10-19-2020, 10:05 AM   #6
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Wow. Just wow. Whoever has been messing around in that unit should be taken out in the middle of the street & put out of their misery before they kill someone else. Nothing about that wiring is right. It all needs to be ripped out & start over.
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Old 10-19-2020, 10:13 AM   #7
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It's easy to change the socket on the RV from 30 to 50, BUT adding a 20 & 30 amp breakers DOES NOT make a 50 amp service. Look at the Park electric pole where you plug in, for the 50 amp plug you'll see TWO 50 amp breakers and a TRUE 50 amp RV's power panel will also have two 50 amp breakers.
The previous owner modified that unit and did a really Half A** job of it and it looks pretty darn dangerous to me, I would be afraid to connect power to it.
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Old 10-19-2020, 10:20 AM   #8
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I believe in 2003 (and earlier) the Montanas had a 50 amp service comprised of a 30 amp and a 20 amp set of breakers. It wasn't until later a "true" 50 amp (actually 100 amp) service was introduced. Finding someone with this setup is getting harder all the time. PM member Drifty1 as he has a 2002 and is *VERY* handy with all thing Montana.
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Old 10-19-2020, 10:49 AM   #9
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Those two white discolored white wires obviously show signs of overheating. And by the way the insulation melted, they overheated at the end where they connect to the buss bar indicating a poor connection there. Poor connection equals resistance and that along with current results in heat. And the larger wire also has corrosion on it.

You might be able to pull the larger wire on the right in a little to gain some length, then cut off the end of the white wire, and reconnect it to one of the lugs to the right making sure it is tight.

It would be good if you could also pull the smaller white wire on the left in a little, but it does not appear corroded like the other, so you might just clean it and reinsert it and make sure it is tight. That screw is not in nearly as far as the white wire next to it indicating it is not as tight. You could also put some shrink tubing on it to cover the bare section.

The difference in the voltage on the 12 volt fuse is small, but might also indicate a poor connection for the fuse holder. Again, poor connection equals heat. And in the worst case, potential for fire. If you do not have any spare fuse spaces that you can move that wire to, then you might need to replace that board. Pictures?
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Old 10-31-2020, 05:37 PM   #10
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i have seen that "WIRE BURN" in my business many times. (your white). It starts as a loose connection which generates heat at the source of the connection....

The main problem... (not the insulation ) is when the copper changes to that BURNT look then the current carrying capacity of the wire diminishes . If it ever heats to the point of break off (no load capable) the voltage on your 120 volt appliances will go to 240 volt and BURN up everything electrical.

Weather you trailer started as a 30 amp and was modified to handle a 50 amp load or if it just came that way.....

YOU MUST ELIMINATE THAT BURNT WHITE WIRE.....do what ever you have to do to cut back about 6" both the 2-black and white wire.....do not take this lightly. Re attach to terminals that are not burnt.... if the circuit breaker has a burn terminal replace with new they are cheap enough.

as far as you 12 volt fuse problem ..can not comment till i see a photo
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Old 10-31-2020, 05:48 PM   #11
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also what about this ground
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Old 10-31-2020, 06:25 PM   #12
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also what about this ground
I didn't notice that. I will try to trace it to see where it is coming from.
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Old 10-31-2020, 06:30 PM   #13
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YOU MUST ELIMINATE THAT BURNT WHITE WIRE....


I will work on this. If there isn't any slack, can I run these into a junction box and connect to new wire to run to the bus? Or can I run them to a bus in a junction box and the run a heavier guage ground wire from the new bus to the old bus?
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Old 10-31-2020, 06:31 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Carl n Susan View Post
I believe in 2003 (and earlier) the Montanas had a 50 amp service comprised of a 30 amp and a 20 amp set of breakers. It wasn't until later a "true" 50 amp (actually 100 amp) service was introduced. Finding someone with this setup is getting harder all the time. PM member Drifty1 as he has a 2002 and is *VERY* handy with all thing Montana.
Thanks. Will do
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Old 10-31-2020, 07:08 PM   #15
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Brand new, neither my 2000 2850RK nor my 2005 2980RL had 50 amp service. I believe your situation is a sad attempt at converting to 50 amp. My 2000 had 2 separate boxes like you are showing. One for A/C power ... one for D/C power. The A/C was on its own breaker as shown.
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Old 10-31-2020, 07:23 PM   #16
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Looks like signs of water in that box as well (or high humidity in a corrosive environment) top breaker appears to be rusting both breakers should also be replaced.
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Old 10-31-2020, 08:33 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by dallasrules View Post
YOU MUST ELIMINATE THAT BURNT WHITE WIRE....

I will work on this. If there isn't any slack, can I run these into a junction box and connect to new wire to run to the bus? Or can I run them to a bus in a junction box and the run a heavier guage ground wire from the new bus to the old bus?
If the wires will not pull thru those fittings, there may be a clamp on the other side.
Looks like that ground wire was twisted inside a wire nut at one time.
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Old 11-01-2020, 02:40 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by dallasrules View Post
YOU MUST ELIMINATE THAT BURNT WHITE WIRE....


I will work on this. If there isn't any slack, can I run these into a junction box and connect to new wire to run to the bus? Or can I run them to a bus in a junction box and the run a heavier guage ground wire from the new bus to the old bus?
that ground wire looks like it was clamped into the ground buss before.

you don't need to change to heaver wire when splicing because a chain is only as heavy as the weakest link....

if you run a new wire to splice in make sure you TWIST the wires together BEFORE you insert into a wire nut
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Old 11-04-2020, 02:05 PM   #19
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I hope these are the right pictures
I AM AN ELECTRICIAN

Please unplug that trailer NOW and get an electrician to fix it. The RV is a 30 amp RV. That means 30 amps TOTAL. A 50 amp RV is 50+50. Sadly the RV industry did a stupid thing calling it 50,it's actually 100Amps total.

The wiring shows significant overloading and will need some wire replacement, removing the unsafe and illegal modifications made to return the RV to a 30A RV. If anything happens that injures another party, since you have been advised the RV is dangerous you would be criminally liable. VERY different penalties, jail time not fines.
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Old 11-04-2020, 02:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForBruce View Post
i have seen that "WIRE BURN" in my business many times. (your white). It starts as a loose connection which generates heat at the source of the connection....

The main problem... (not the insulation ) is when the copper changes to that BURNT look then the current carrying capacity of the wire diminishes . If it ever heats to the point of break off (no load capable) the voltage on your 120 volt appliances will go to 240 volt and BURN up everything electrical.

Weather you trailer started as a 30 amp and was modified to handle a 50 amp load or if it just came that way.....

YOU MUST ELIMINATE THAT BURNT WHITE WIRE.....do what ever you have to do to cut back about 6" both the 2-black and white wire.....do not take this lightly. Re attach to terminals that are not burnt.... if the circuit breaker has a burn terminal replace with new they are cheap enough.

as far as you 12 volt fuse problem ..can not comment till i see a photo
Electrician here. I know of no way to get 240V on any appliance in an RV without connecting the appliance to the 2 hot legs. A neutral (white wire) breaking off will cause 0 Volts on that entire circuit.
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