Slides stop,

[JohnG3]

OK, so about everybody is talking 30 amp breakers on the slide out pump. So I get the Cole Hersee 30 amp breakers to replace the ones Keystone installed (trailer was purchased new so they are OEM breakers). Guess what? They're 50 amp breakers!!!!!!!. Going to try CH 50's and see what happens. Only 5 bucks each and they're easy to get to.

[Tom S.]

quote:Originally posted by JohnG3

OK, so about everybody is talking 30 amp breakers on the slide out pump. So I get the Cole Hersee 30 amp breakers to replace the ones Keystone installed (trailer was purchased new so they are OEM breakers). Guess what? They're 50 amp breakers!!!!!!!. Going to try CH 50's and see what happens. Only 5 bucks each and they're easy to get to.

People who know me on the board know I'm a stickler for safety when it comes to all things electrical. I know your concern about upping the breaker amperage when the initial system called for something less. In the case of the hydraulic system though, it doesn't use 50 (or 80) amps just because it's available. It's only using what it needs to get past the spot that causes a momentary surge in current. If someone made a slow-blowing circuit breaker in 30 or 40 amps, it would be a perfect fit, but I've never seen them, so we all just go with the larger breakers.

[Phil P]

quote:Originally posted by JohnG3

OK, so about everybody is talking 30 amp breakers on the slide out pump. So I get the Cole Hersee 30 amp breakers to replace the ones Keystone installed (trailer was purchased new so they are OEM breakers). Guess what? They're 50 amp breakers!!!!!!!. Going to try CH 50's and see what happens. Only 5 bucks each and they're easy to get to.

Providing you don’t all ready have a problem with the pump motor or the wrong fluid in the pump you should be able to run all slides all the way out / in and hold the switch on for an additional 10 to 15 seconds without tripping the breaker.

If you can’t do this then you have a problem with the system and it may not be electrical.

Phil P

PS:
I am certified by HWH & Flight Safety in hydraulics and Flight Safety in AC & DC electrics.

[MIMF]

Let's remember here gang, that every time an auto reset breaker pops open due to amperage draw and subsequent heat, it is weaker when it resets. The more it pops open the weaker it becomes. Eventually, it will pop open the instant you touch the switch.

There are reasons for higher amperage draws. Cold fluid, undercharged battery/batteries, corroded chassis grounds and loose connections. Go ahead, put in the 50 amp auto reset breaker, JohnG3. But, make sure all connections on the motor, Trombetta, battery and that the circuit is seeing a clean ground. Another consideration, has the slide room mechanisms been properly lubricated?

Within the first year of owning this old Challenger, I installed a 70 amp manual reset breaker. Have never had a problem. If that breaker popped open, I wanted the chance to investigate why before the breaker gets reset. But, it has NEVER popped open because, every spring before I install both Die-Hards, I go through and tighten connections and clean the 2 grounds.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

[Phil P]

MIMF

Lubrication on the slides will not affect the pump electrical circuit. All else you posted is very good advice.

However in a properly wired and fuse / circuit breaker protected circuit if a slide or all slides stop moving for any reason it will not trip the breaker. The real reason for not running the pump after all sides stop is because of the heating you get in the fluid. The fluid circuit when the pressure relief valve is open is commonly back to the pump intake not necessarily to the fluid reservoir. The pump motor is capable of running for extended periods of time but the pump not the motor may well be damaged from high temperatures if the pump is operated with the pressure relief valve open for more than a few minutes.

On what is commonly referred to as an open center system the fluid is returned to the reservoir for cooling purposes. This is not common in this type of application.

As you point out any deficiencies in the electrical circuit that results in low voltage under load increase the amperage draw.

Phil P

[dieselguy]

"yawn ... yawn ... and yawn"
Certified in "nothing" yet backed by common sense and years of experience.

[Irlpguy]

At the risk of producing more yawns I am going to add my 2 bits worth to the OP..

First I would not worry about the change in how the slides are going out with respect to sequence and how that may have changed over time. Using the same reasoning that some have used that slides may be out of alignement after use therefore stiffer, they can also loosen up and move more easily after use, they will still go out/in with the one with the least resistance going first.

Secondly and most important, I agree with you that these systems were designed to operate with the 50 amp (not 30 or 40 amp) circuit breakers installed in my unit and yours at the factory. I assume you are not using a remote since you have not mentioned one, however if I misunderstood then put a new battery in the remote just to eliminate any possibilities there. You also do not mention whether you are plugged into shore power when the breaker is tripping and the slides are stopping. If you are not, plug into shore power and you will have the added benefit of the converter supplying additional voltage to your batteries.

When I experienced the same problem you have, I solved it by replacing my 2 older 12V batteries with 2 new 6V batteries and whenever possible plugging into shore power before extending my slides and running my level up. I have never had the problem again and although based on advise on this forum I went and bought an 80 amp breaker, it is in my tool box and everything runs fine on my original 50 amp breakers.

My completely non expert opinion is a problem with voltage supply. As voltage drops, current increases under any load condition, so check all connections, check the condition of your batteries and try plugging into shore power and see what happens.

[MIMF]

Phil, I have never heard of the fluid overheating!! The only time that may happen is when the load is so heavy that it causes the pressure relief valves to pop open and send the fluid back into the tank, not back to the intake of the pump as you stated. These pumps were not set-up like that. If that condition is happening then the slide mechanism needs attention because, the pump is being overloaded and not the motor.

Back in the early days these parker pumps were first being used, they had pressure relief valves of around 1100 or 1200 psi on both the extend and retract and was used mainly for slide rooms. It was a very short time later, these Parker pumps was being used to operate the front landing gear in addition to the rooms. That also required higher capacity tanks that held more fluid. However, there was a different pressure relief valve used on the extend side of the pump which increased the pressure rating to 1800 or 2200 psi. That was so the hydraulic cylinders that lifted the front legs could do so without the pressure relief valves popping open. Now, with the advent of the 6 point level-up, I am not sure what the pressure relief or pumps are rated at.

The 12 volt motor that runs the pump is rated to draw as much as 100 amps. That is the reason there is normally 30, 40, or 50 amp breakers used to protect the motor and electrical circuit. You will be hard pressed to find auto resetting breakers rated at more than 50 amps in 12 or 24 volt ratings. That is why I installed a 70 amp manual reset in my system. The reason auto resetting breakers are used in this circuit is to make it easier on the retail user so, you don't have to physically return to the breaker and reset a button or lever. However, as I stated, every time auto resetting breakers pop open and then reset when it cools slightly, they are not rated at their original spec and normally go down hill from there. In fact, there has been occasion I have taken a new breaker right of the package and it was bad.

Again, I say, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it and is a small part of what I remember from the old days working at Lippert 6 or 8 years ago.

[Phil P]

quote:Originally posted by dieselguy

"yawn ... yawn ... and yawn"
Certified in "nothing" yet backed by common sense and years of experience.

When you have 50 + years experience you may be eligible to make remarks like this.

My first formal classroom training was 54 years ago. I have made my living for over 50 years building and maintaining various air over hydraulic, electric over hydraulic and straight hydraulic systems as well as a number of other types of systems.

Lack of lubrication to the point of the slide not moving at all will not trip the breaker in a properly configured and maintained electric over hydraulic system.

The only thing an improperly lubricated slide that will not move will do if your electrical system is properly configured and maintained will be to cause the hydraulic pump to open the pressure relief valve.

Phil P

[Phil P]

MIMF

The hydraulic system in my trailer returns the fluid from the pressure relief valve directly in to the pump inlet port not the fluid reservoir. Under an extended run this will over heat the fluid. I have seen operators hold or have a control fail and do nothing about it until the unit caught on fire.

I have had mine apart to see about increasing the sizes of the reservoir so I could add hydraulic landing gear.

Your pressures are common to most industrial systems. Addition of cylinders of the same diameter would not necessarily require more pressure but defiantly would require more volume. You could double the number of cylinders with out increasing the volume by reducing the diameter of the cylinders. That may require more pressure unless the multiple cylinders are lifting the same gross weight. IE 2 cylinders lift 4,000 lbs and you increase the number to 4 cylinders of a smaller diameter but still lift only 4,000 lbs would require the same pressure. The reduction of size will have to be calculated to determine what reduction in sizes would make this work.

That 12-volt motor would go off like a flash bulb if it ever drew 100 amps.

The wiring to my unit is AWG #4 rated at 60 amps. This is the larges fuse / breaker that should be installed in this line regardless of what size motor you are trying to operate. (REF: Table 1 American Wire Gage cable / conductor sizes and properties copper conductor)

I agree with the OP that if his unit worked without tripping the breaker of 50 amps and now he is unable to make pressure relief without tripping the breaker then he has a problem that needs to be addressed. If he decides to increase the brake potential and he has determined the wire sizes to be AWG #4 then he should not go larger than 60 amps. (REF: Table 1 American Wire Gage cable / conductor sizes and properties copper conductor)

I agree with the OP that if in fact the motor will draw 100 amps and the wiring is not at least AWG #1 increasing the breaker to 80 amps is a fire hazard. (REF: Table 1 American Wire Gage cable / conductor sizes and properties copper conductor)

How ever in spite of this my system is protected by a 50-amp breaker and has never tripped the breaker and when I extend or retract the slides I run the pump until I hear the pressure relief valve open.

One time we had a wine rack get behind on of the slides and the hydraulics are so powerful that it pushed the front lip off the slide without ever loading the pump to pressure relief. This indicates that a slide would have to be severely binding to cause the pump to reach pressure relief with the slide only part way open but would not result in the breaker tripping unless there is a problem with the electrical system or motor.

It is still established by the engineers and training standards that the breaker is there to protect the wire not the motor.

Phil P

[dieselguy]

"Sum more "Yawn ... Yawn ...Yawn" Did it ever occur to you that some of us may have spilled more hydraulic fluid in our lives that you've ever pumped? OK ... moderators, I promise .. I'm backing out of this one.

[bncinwv]

So...........with all this techno-mumbo-jumbo, how does all of this explain the fact that our electric pump motor that fed the hydraulics failed (overload I assume) when we tried to retract the slide and a flip-flop (yes a normal shoe) impeded the slide from retracting? I don't think the fluid overheated (I did not check it), but I have a hunch (no engineering expertise provided here - I will not mention credentials - but I am licensed) that it had something to do with overloading the circuits that fed the electric motor? Okay, I admit, that with the direction this thread is taking, that I feel my sarcastic side once again emerging, and I totally agree that this thread has run it's course (or should that be coarse..... considering the antagonistic nature that is emerging)???? Ahhhhhhhhh, another "Bonus Day"!

On edit: Daggone it, I forgot to include a yawn!!

Bingo

[Irlpguy]

Wait a minute here, we now have two members suggesting the comments are no more than "yawn worthy" and another suggesting sarcastic responses and that an antagonistic nature is emerging.

I do not see any animosity between PhilP and MIMF, I see two members presenting their cases in a discussion on electrical and hydraulic operation. The only sarcastic response in my opinion was to the Yawn comment made because someone tired of the thread. Notwithstanding the sarcasm intended or not in the last post.

While I personally believe the OP has an electrical problem, I find it interesting the discussion on the hydraulic side of the equation. The system involves both electric and hydraulic and having an understanding of the operation of both is beneficial to anyone interested. I do not agree with all that is being said on either side but it is not my place to suggest the discussion end or that anyone is wrong for putting forward an opposing view.

As long as the presentation of ones point is not discriminatory or objectionable to anyone else, then what is the problem.

Why not leave it up to the OP to decide if the theory's being presented are of no value and the thread should be ended. I humbly suggest it is not dieselguy's or bncinwv's position to make that assessment.

[Phil P]

Major spilling of hydraulic fluid only indicates the inability to perform the job properly.

If the hydraulic pump motor will not run with the slides stopped for any reason without damaging the motor then there is problem with the system that needs correcting. Installation of high amperage protection devices that exceed the rating of the wire gage installed is a fire hazard.

Our trailer was delivered with AWG #4 wiring to the hydraulic pump system. The installation of an electrical production device that exceeds the 60 amps rating of that wire is not going to happen on any of my equipment.

So far for 3 years my system has operated without tripping the 50-amp breaker I installed in place of the 30-amp inline fuse supplied with the trailer.

Phil P

[MIMF]

dieselguy and Bingo, I'm with you guys! Posting on this thread is done.

[Phil P]

I find it interesting that when someone starts providing the engineering documents to show the correct way to configure something like this then everyone wants to stop the discussion.

By the way Parker Hannifin’s spec sheet on the pump and motor in our trailer shows a max draw of 75 amps at 3500 psi with a temperature of 70 F.

As MIMF stated the high pressure used is 2200 psi makes a 50-amp breaker just the correct size.

Phil P

[Irlpguy]

quote:Originally posted by JohnG3

OK, so about everybody is talking 30 amp breakers on the slide out pump. So I get the Cole Hersee 30 amp breakers to replace the ones Keystone installed (trailer was purchased new so they are OEM breakers). Guess what? They're 50 amp breakers!!!!!!!. Going to try CH 50's and see what happens. Only 5 bucks each and they're easy to get to.

I had to go back to page 2 of 4 and I am using the last post made by the OP to show that he discovered he had 50 amp breakers and not 30 amp, and was going to try replacing them with Cole Hersee brand 50 amp breakers.

I hope he has not been chased away by comments like "You can lead a horse to water".... and other comments made in the thread. I also hope that some of the information provided will lead him to look at possible electrical issues regarding his batteries and so on, and if a solution is not found there, to then look at the hydraulic aspects.

As has been known to happen, the question asked or concern voiced gets lost in the exuberance of the people trying to help address the concern or answer the question. I am guilty of this as well at times.

I feel it is important to provide "factual" information and not "We have all done it this way" practice that some on this forum have long provided and may contain little or no real merit.

From his opening post the OP thought that because the slides did not operate as they did when new, there might be a hydraulic issue and was not convinced he should replace a circuit breaker with a larger one without finding out why the original was now tripping. He was completely justified and is right in his concerns about that, and good for him to not take that solution instead of solving the problem.

I will thank both PhilP and MIMF for their insight and information on the hydraulic aspect and while I am not in complete agreement with either I see their contribution as having some merit to the thread..

Lets in the future take a look back after several pages and see if the OP has abandoned ship with no more posts, then lets ask ourselves why that might have happened.

If you tire of the thread then don't create controversy by making further posts, or suggest the thread should be terminated. Let it go, when everyone loses interest the thread will die on it's own.

I, as one who contributed to this thread hope the OP has found a solution to his issue and I hope he will continue to feel inclined to seek assistance here on the MOC forum.

[Phil P]

Thanks Irlpguy

I am lucky in that one of the few items I haven’t had problems with is the hydraulic system for the slides with the exception of the 30 amp inline fuse installed in the main power line for the hydraulic pump by the factory. After changing that for a 50-amp circuit breaker our system has worked well for 3 years.

The real problem with trying to correct problems in an electric over hydraulic system is there are so many things that can cause the reported problem.

The one thing I did find when looking at the Parker specifications is our motor is not a continuous duty motor. Parker recommends a “cool down” time between operations.

I know I haven’t at times not compiled with the recommended cool down time.

I guess I have been lucky with that one in that I haven’t had any problems with the system.

Phil P

[wiley75]

My 2012 295RKD has started doing this. I opened the slides up this last weekend with no problem. But while closing them it blew the breaker 5 times trying to pull the large slide back in. Temp outside was about 40 degrees F. It was nowhere near the pressure relief on the hydraulic pump (I can tell by the sound). I think the batteries were just a tad low, probably around 12.0 volts static. I suspect the circuit breaker is tripping because of the slightly lower battery voltage, which raises the current as we all know. I will consider changing the breaker one size large but ONLY if the conductor is capable of handling the breaker trip rating when installed in conduit.

[Dixiedawg]

We have never had a problem with our slides (knock on wood) going in or out. They follow the same sequence in and out. However, the bedroom slide has always stuttered when going out and it starts stuttering about half way out. After reading this thread I feel that I should check to see what amp fuse we have in our unit. If it is a 30 amp them maybe I should buy a 50 amp just in case. Is the fuse an inline fuse that is visible by the motor? If not, can someone tell me where I might find the fuse. I know nothing about electrical or hydraulic systems but realize how important they are in our day to day lives. I used a sharpy to mark the high spot on the reservoir and check it on every outing.