Another Black Tank Issue

[WorkerB]

Toward the end of our stay in Quartzsite our black tank got FULL. Someone asked are you getting the burp? If so that’s a sure sign you’re full regardless of what the tank monitor says. The guy came and emptied all tanks. The next say I was in the forward compartment doing something with the batteries. Nasty smell coming from ?? Never had that before but no leaking from the underbelly.
FYI: When leaving Q I went to the local RV place and dumped all tanks. They didn’t have a hose to flush but did have a 3-gallon bucket you could fill and put water in the toilet. On the second bucket that completely filled the toilet. When I pressed the foot pedal I noticed clear water seeped just a little at the base of the toilet.
The recent wind and rainstorms cleared away the snow and I finally have the Monty home. Yesterday I dropped the underbelly to get a look at what was going on. I haven’t figured how the vent pipe connects to the tank to see if the leak is there. My next plan is to fill the black tank to full and watch. Any suggestions before I do it? It’s raining right now but I might do it this afternoon or tomorrow weather permitting. Here is what I see so far. Richfaa nice post on 2/18 It looks like I have less field to plow. Thanks for documenting your work.

[richfaa]

It sounds like you may have a bockage of Tissue in the pipe that goes from the john to the tank. There is a slight bend in the pipe but I have seen tissue pile up there. Since you have been boon docking and not using enough water to flush that may have happened. you might try the garden hose down the john trick...be verrrryyy careful.

On Edit..If you dropped the underbelly panels and there is NO foul smelly stuff there.. The tank is NOT leaking. Which makes the tissue build up in the down pipe the prime suspect.

[HamRad]

WorkerB,

I agree with Richfaa. Sounds like you have a blockage in the down pipe or right at the base of that pipe in the tank. Many times people do not use nearly enough water and a pyramid of 'stuff' builds up and causes a blockage. Just keep putting water in as you can. I assume you have the tank cleaner/flusher. Use it. Have someone on the inside watching to make sure you are not overflowing in the camper. Then just keep dumping and flushing. If you end up still not clearing the blockage then you might trying the "spike" on the end of a hose and put it down the toilet into the "pile" at the bottom.

I wish I could remember exactly what it was that Steve Reigle used but he bought a 'spike' of some sort that allows water to come out of a lot of little holes in it. This breaks up any blockage you might have. Probably only works in the down pipe and any piles right at the bottom of the down pipe.

Perhaps you can find the reference using a 'search'. Or better yet maybe Steve will see this and make a response.

Good luck.

Hamrad

[WorkerB]

I started filling the tank with the garden hose. Went outside and there was no doubt. The picture below shows the beginning of the crack at A. Follow the brown line to Z. I'll call Travel Star tomorrow and get a quote. Traveler's RV, the local Montana dealer in Reno went belly up. I think I've read previous posts that Travel Star will only ship to a dealer. Has anyone heard of a substitute tank? I think the 294 on the 2nd picture tells what kind of tank it is.
John

[old turbo]

Hard to get a good idea of your problem from the picture. It looks like your drain pipe took a hit and fractured your black tank?

[WorkerB]

That's exactly what it looks like. When everything is in place the drain pipe is very rigid. With the pipe hangers in place you have to really exert allot of pressure to see the slightest movement at the dump valve / tank connection. Certainly not enough movement to cause this kind of cracking. The symptoms started after a pump service had drained our tanks. My DW and RLDriver were there and both confirmed the guy wasn't rough when connecting and disconnecting the drain hose. On this particular trip the tanks were empty while traveling. The only unusual condition was that we allowed the black tank to become full and maybe even overfull. The trailer was never moved with the full tank. There sure seems to be a trend of tank failures within our group. Maybe it's time for a poll to see if overfull tanks could be causing tank failures. The tanks I have on my 2550RK hang from the top with no support under the tanks. We have had two motor homes and we also have a cab over camper. All were either supported under the tanks or in the case of the camper there are straps supporting the tanks. Never a problem with the SOB's.
John S.

[HamRad]

John,

Before you replace the tank I'd try patching it. We had almost exactly the same thing happen to us but on our gray tank. Get a radiator repair kit. We were able to fix ours using the repair kit.

We most recently had a leak in our galley tank. Did a repair on that and also installed a flexible rubber join.. Also installed a 2x4 to add some support for tank. Between the repair kit, the added support and the rubber flex joint I hope we've fixed that one!

I have a picture or two posted on my PictureTrail account. Not very informative but you can see about the same thing you have on yours.

Good luck.

Dennis

[rvfirefighter]

If it were me I would try to patch the crack before replacing the tank.

If you can see the crack, I would clean the area around the crack with a wire brush and use a compound called "JB Weld". It is a two part compound that will seal the crack.

I have had to patch cracks on my tanks in both units I have owned and most were damaged at the factory, probably by some support when attaching the pipes and installation to the frame. There was no way that the damaged was done by my use. After using the unit for a period of time and pressure from water and weight of the water puts pressure on the damaged area and the owner has the problem.

Good Luck

I

[WorkerB]

Hi Dennis,
During my first inspection it appeared the crack was just about 1 inch long. I was thinking if I got some ABS pipe cut a small section crosswise and then lengthwise I could then apply just enough heat / warmth to shape the ABS to a flat flexible band aid. Shape it to the damaged area, then using ABS glue, patch over the 1 inch spot. On further inspection the repair becomes more like 4 inches long with lots of angles. If I could come up with thinner ABS material I might be able to shape the patch from A to Z and it would be easier to work with. Another thing, I am not convinced the tank that we are calling ABS is REALLY ABS. The tank seems to have a waxy, shiny, appearance kind of like a 1 gallon milk bottle. The ABS slip ring where the sewer empties out of the tank appears to be sort of injection molded around the slip ring rather than the slip ring and tank being all one piece. My concern is will real ABS (my patch material) make a good chemical bond to the tank using ABS cement. There is lots of room to work on it. I have the time. Let me research your radiator patch fix and maybe someone reading this post has past experience with repair of this tank material. Thanks for the encouragement Dennis. I was ready to send off for a new tank this AM but I was sweating the toilet entry and vent connections to the tank from the top. The bottom Y connection where the gray and black dump valves was going to be a complete rebuild also just to get everything to fit perfectly. I vote for the repair and support option first. BTW, I am the proud owner of a Harbor Freight plastic welding machine. I know from personal experience with thin metal that I am very good at blowing holes and then using gobs of filler to make a mess of things. Welding the tank with the plastic welder is out of the question for me.
Later,
John
RV Firefighter jumped in with the JB Weld fix while I was in the middle of composing this post. Another option. Man this forum is GREAT! Thanks for the suggestions keep em coming.
John

[richfaa]

If you call the tank manufactuer they will tell you what you need top patch it.It is how the repair tanks.. I works well as we repaired oursand it held till we got a new tank. We can now see the leak but the fact that the john fills up indcated a blockage. Travel star will ship to you...

[DHenry]

John, my Montana had a similar crack as yours and I repaired it with JB Weld as stated already. I roughed it up by using a wire wheel on a Dremel tool before adding the JB Weld. If you can, you should drill a small hole at both ends of the crack to keep it from traveling further. My repair held through our 10K mile trip to Alaska and is still holding as far as I know. Good luck repairing or replacing the tank. I would try the repair first, and if it fails then I would replace. Let us all know what you decide.

[WorkerB]

Ok Guys,
I just got off the phone with Amy at Travel star. UPS is charging her between $130 - $170 shipping and when tanks arrive damaged there is a bunch of grief getting it taken care of. Because of that she refuses to ship directly. Amy said to call Keystone at 574-535-2100. Ask for customer service. Keystone gets a volume discount of $50.00 shipping. I asked what the tank would cost and she said around $80.00.
Then I asked Amy if she knew about the MOC. She said no. I explained how you could do a search on black tank and get a bunch of hits. Amy interrupted me and said she sells tanks to many RV manufacturers and the reason Montana’s have a problem is they refuse to follow installation instructions. Amy says they do factory audits and Montana consistently gets dinged for failing to strap the tanks per manufacturer instructions. Amy says the tanks are not designed to be suspended without bottom support. Next we talked about strapping. I expressed a concern that metal strapping might chafe through and asked if the strapping used to hold down loads on a 18-wheeler would work. Amy said sure she has even seen people use strips of carpet and it worked fine. One strap close to plumbing dump valves and the other 2/3 of the way toward the rear of the tank. Then surprise of surprises Amy asked me why I don’t repair it myself. I asked her how. Amy said get a bucket of water and pour some Oatey ABS cement into the water. Swirl the cement around in the water and make a ball. Squeeze out the water and form a putty ball. After cleaning the cracked area using MEK (Methyl Ethel Ketone) form the putty around the cracked area to finish the repair. 24 hours minimum before use and a few days is better. I asked exactly what the tank was made of and Amy replied ABS. So there you have it.
My plan is to first reinstall the muffler hangers to the sewer pipe and get everything in position where it normally lives. Then I am going to use carpet strips and support my gray and black tanks. Clean the cracked area and use the ABS putty fix. Before I button everything up it seems like putting some real insulation in there would be a good idea EXCEPT if the black tank failed again dealing with the extra insulation would be UGLY. Thoughts? I absolutely LOVE JB Weld. I have used it on so many things and it has NEVER once failed me. Because this looks like it is going to be a one-chance deal, and because it is suggested by the manufacturer I am going with that recommendation. Sorry Doug I’m hangin with Amy. Sure hope I’m not sorry in the future for not using JB Weld. Now, if Montana is intentionally installing these tanks improperly why are they not held accountable? Why should we have to pay for repairs and suffer inconvenience because they are only interested in saving a buck? Is a class action the answer?
John

[capn chris]

John,
Just another repair idea would be a marine caulk from West Marine or boating store. I've used Multi Caulk Sealant (in a tube) that supposedly even cures under water, but remains flexible. Another product called 5200, I think, is even stronger. Just some ideas from a former boater.

[Mrs. CountryGuy]

John

Has been discussed a few times here on MOC about the NON existing straps on on Montana's.

Thus the really strong and adamant stand Al (Countyguy) and I take on traveling with as little in ANY of the tanks as possible, and not overfilling either.

We are a bit over the top paranoid about this, we confess, but, Al would not even pull Tana 7 miles to the state park with about 25 gallons of black. (I will refrain from a description of his method of disposal, ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww! )

We feel your pain, good luck on your fix per Amy.

[richfaa]

We had the same conversation with with travel star about a year ago. We used their mehod of tank repair. We had the tank shipped to our local dealer when we replaced it under extended warranty. There are many things the RV manufacture does not install as per Vendor instruction. Example the day night shades and as we have learned the propane system. As long as it meets RVIA the manufacturer is OK to do it vendor instuctions mean nothing.

[HamRad]

John,

Good luck with your repair efforts. The J.B. Weld sounds very good. But since the manufacturer recommends another process I think I'd try that as you plan to do. The radiator kit does have fiberglass in it that gets applied to crack area. We found out the hard way that you MUST use the fiberglass! Don't ask!

The added support coupled with the tank repair should get you going again.

Keep us informed as to how it goes.

I would not recommend putting extra insulation in that area for the very reason you outlined. But I don't live in COLD country so I don't even know what folks are talking about when they mention 'winterizing'!

See you soon.

Dennis

[8.1al]

Thanks for all the info John, I'll put that to use shortly. Let us know how your make out

[WorkerB]

This first pic is taken from the curb side of the Monty. The gray water is on the right the black water tank on the left. As you can see there will be plenty of room to patch the area where the pipe enters the tank on the left. There is still yucky water dripping so I lowered the Monty's front end to cause more of the water to drain. Before I begin in the morning I will raise the front end as high as I safely can causing any remaining water to go toward the rear of the trailer away from the area I will be working on.


This picture is taken from the curb side also. This is the end of the black water tank. This is where the pressure washer water enters the black water tank. I always wondered how they did that. I also wondered how I was going to deal with that part of the job should I have to replace the tank. If you look behind the water inlet you can see the silver heater hose just hanging there. This is the hose that brings warm air to the tank area to keep stuff from freezing. It seems like it would be wise to spend a little effort to seal everything up to keep out cold wind and keep warm air in.



I picked up the carpeting at the local carpet store from their dumpster with the permission of the owner of course. This was a piece left over from an installation. I figure I will cut 3 in wide strips using two strips per tank. I will put the fuzzy side next to the tank.
I got a quart of MEK and a large can of Oatey ABS cement. Cost was $17.61 for both. If this works it will save a ton of dough and lots of labor. Tomorrow will tell.

[richfaa]

Nice fix... Did you solve the problem of water standing in the John. That repair brew that travel star suggested works well but we had the extended warranty and had the tank replaced for 50.00

[WorkerB]

Hi Rich,
Not fixed yet. It is 715am and 34 degrees outside. My bride is going to Reno for the day in a bit. When things warm up a little I begin. Concerning the standing water I can see evidence of the leak in the basement where the threaded ABS pipe is connected to the toilet. That leak is minor compared to the rest of my problems. I will deal with that problem on a sunny day in the future. Guess what? I just re-read your questions to make sure I answered and it seems I left the impression I had standing water. Not the case. I was flushing the tank as best I could by bringing in water in a 3 gallon bucket and filling the toilet to the top. It was when I depressed the pedal to allow the water to go into the tank that I noticed a little bit of water (teaspoon full) leak out from between the toilet and the floor. Thanks, John