Disappointed in Quality Control - Montana Owners Club

Montana_3768 · 09-22-2005, 04:04 PM

I was glad to see so many good comments about the Montana, but frankly, I've been a little disappointed in the quality control on my 2005 3400 RL purchase in March, received in May.
The converter has not worked since the day we took our Montana out for the first time. I happen to be able to borrow a boat battery charger to charge up the battery at night to keep the AC going during the day (did not realize that the remote AC/heat control required DC power). The dealer could not believe the converter was bad and said he could not repeat the problem when we took it in the first time, but the battery would not charge on our second trip either. The second time I had a spare battery with me and the charger. The dealer replaced the converter after the second visit.
First time it rained, (happened at night so we did not find the problem until the morning)we had a water leak in the shirt closet that soaked the floor and a water leak in the overhead cabinets on the outboard side of the large slide that flooded the cabinet, dripped onto the couch and soaked a three foot square section of the carpet under the couch. We spend two days drying out the carpet and couch. The source of the leaks in the glides have not been isolated yet - the dealer is working on it. There was also a puddle of water in the entry way. I received one good suggestion to look at whether or not the seals were all the way out or still rolled in. Will have to check that one out if the dealer says they can't find the leaks.
We've had water line leaks at the shower faucet, and a leak around the shower stall itself. I found those leaks when the water was leaking through the plywood flooring into the storage basement.
The doors on the overhead cabinets were loose and needed longer screws to properly secure the hinges. The table was not secured to the floor of the coach. Several of the bedroom drawers under the TV in the bedroom needed to be adjusted to keep them from opening during tansit - same with the cabinet door by the island. We received our unit with only the bottom part of the lazy susan under the sink, and it was installed so that the bottom part would not turn.
While at the dealer for the slide leaks, I asked him to find out why no air comes out of the heater vents, except for the bedroom. Just had to use the furnace for the first time this past week.
I love the layout of the 3400 RL, it is a beautiful coach. We actually special ordered it from the factory because the dealer did not have one with full gelcoat outside and without the electric fireplace. I thought a special order would get a little more special attention. Wrong - I just wish there was more attention to detail and quality control at the factory. We've had our coach since May, and this its fourth visit to the dealer. I hope this is the last time and all the bugs are going to be fixed and that there is no permanent damage or mold later from the water leaks. The quality on our 2002 Cardinal was much better than we've experienced with the Montana.
Just needed a place to vent! Thanks for listening.

Montana_70 · 09-23-2005, 03:54 AM

Banjo Dave,

Very disapointed to here this about the 2005 3400. It's my favorite floor plan. I would have thought Keystone would be improving their quality control instead of getting worse.

I feel your pain!

There seems to be three types of Montana owners on this forum. Those with units that have been trouble free, Those that have had some problems that were quickly resolved or needing just minor adjustments (as Keystone reports is normal in the industry) and then there is group number three who have been plagued with problem after problem that go beyond minor adjustments that take a toll on your patience, your wallet, and time and take the joy out of new ownership.

I am in group number three. If you continue to have problems that your dealer cannot fix you should contact Keystone directly and a let them know what your problems are. The carpet in my unit had to be replaced do to the mold under the carpet.

After three years of grief, it seems I finally have a unit that does not leak and things seem to be working. The only thing I'm facing now is a leaking grey water tank.

Good luck to you and make sure you document all of your problems with Keystone in writing.

steves · 09-23-2005, 04:05 AM

Banjo Dave, I sympathize with your frustration over the quality of the factory assemble on your 3400. Overall, the Montana is a good unit but sometimes and I can't understand it, they claim to expend a lot of effort on quality control, units come out of the factory that goes against their quality control efforts? These type problem do occur in other high end RV manufactures as well, so it's not only keystone. I too had to work through a number of poor quality assemble issues but through patience and a good repair shop I have a good / sound unit. Keep your patience and work through these problems and if needed get the factory or Keystone Customer Support involved. Let us know how you make out with the repairs.

DHenry · 09-23-2005, 04:50 AM

Banjo Dave, I am sorry to hear that you have issues with the quality control of your Montana. I just wanted to let you know it is not just a problem with Montana's, I had dinner last week with some friends that own Prevost busses, now we all know that they are not the entry level RV. You should have heard one of the guys talkking about the quality of his bus. He has been eating up batteries at a cost of $2400.00 for the replacements and no one at the factory can figure out the problem. That was the worst of the problems discussed but there were many others talked about during the course of the evening. We all agreed that no matter what brand of RV that is manufactured, something will slip through the quality control at the factory and we will have a few problems down the road ocassionally.

Garin1 · 09-23-2005, 06:07 AM

Amen to that Dhenry, Remember folks that these are built by people and people sometimes make mistakes. The hardest ones to handle are the dealers that do not want to help after they have your money$$$

When a company makes thousands of any item rpoblems will leak through. Keystone is an excellent manufacturer and stand by thier product. Just give them a chance to help. Sorry about the troubles, hope you get to enjoy yours as much as we all do.

God Bless

Parrothead · 09-23-2005, 07:08 AM

The 3400 only has a 1 level lazy susan. Because it is under the sink there is not room for the 2 level one.

Montana_3768 · 09-23-2005, 11:56 AM

Thanks for the words of encouragement. Fortunately, so far my dealer has been very helpful in trying to get things done to my satisfaction. They did replace the converter and they took care of the minor issues and leaks in the shower without giving me any grief whatsoever. I'm hopeful that they are as good with the slide leaks and the furnace problems.
We do have the remote control AC and furnace, and I've heard a lot about the problems with it, but so far I can live with the thermostat being 6 degrees off. It reads 81 when it is really 75 degrees. I hear they have put the Non remote thermostats in the 2006 models, but so far I can't complain about the AC. It helps that we have two AC units which really cools it down even in very hot summer weather. Have to keep my banjo and guitar "cool" you know. :-)
I'll let you know how the repairs turn out.

richfaa · 09-23-2005, 04:25 PM

Poor quality control and workmanship are across the board in the Rv industry,,Montana is no better or worse that the others.We will buy the Montana because of their excellent reputation of correcting problems. In doing our homework before buying we belonged to other Rv forums.Poor workmanship is the norm in the industry. Work with Montana customer service and you will get satisfaction.

Montana Sky · 09-23-2005, 07:46 PM

I have been lucky I guess, my 3400RL has only had 4 MINOR things needing attention since I picked up the unit. Order it in Jan of 04 and brought home in April of 04. My dealership knows I am what they like to joke about "anal and demanding"! Those guys know I wont accept anything less than perfect and they get it 100% perfect each time for me. I had 1 major problem with my coach when I picked it up and Keystone not only fixed the problem, they sent me a check back for the cost of the upgrade I had ordered to my coach. So far they have done right by me, now if they would only fix the tv and computer desk in the Cambridge I would be upgrading. =)

Montana_4413 · 09-25-2005, 03:15 PM

FOR THE MONEY MY 3470 IS A GOOD VALUE. I JUST COMPLETED THE SURVEY SENT OUT AFTER A NEW PURCHASE. NONE OF THE QUESTIONS RELATED TO THE WORD QUALITY. ALL OF THE ISSUES WE HAVE HAVE BEEN MENTIONED EXCEPT I WILL ADD THE BED MATTRESS WILL NOT CLEAR THE VANITY WHEN THE SLIDEOUT IS IN AND IT BUCKLES WHICH AFTER 10 USES HAS DESTROYED THE CORNER OF THE MATTRESS EVEN WHEN THE MATTERSS IS PUSHED TOWARDS THE FRONT OF THE UNIT BEFORE CLOSING THE SLIDE. I HAVE FINALLY DECIDED I WILL FIGURE OUT HOW TO FASTEN THE TABLE TO THE FLOOR MYSELF.

Parrothead · 09-25-2005, 03:49 PM

You really don't need the table fasten to the floor. We unscrewed ours so it wasn't right up against the blinds. We have traveled thousands of miles in our 3 fifth wheels and have never had the table screwed down.
Happy trails.....................

Montana Sky · 09-25-2005, 06:11 PM

I also had to have dealership unscrew my table and move it out an inch or so. Now I can open and close the blinds by the table with ease. I am thinking of having the table unscrewed again to make it even easier to do, along with making more room around the table.

steves · 09-25-2005, 11:04 PM

The 1st thing I did when I got my 3400 was to unscrew the table legs so we can move it as needed when having guest. We also have turned the table lengthwise and push it back against the wall. The back table chair, I use/keep at my computer desk unless we are seating 4 people then we turn the table back as originally installed. This set up gives us a lot more room between the table and the counter. I originally purchased a 5th chair for the computer desk which I have taken out of the unit and is now in my computer room at home. When traveling I still strap the three chairs to the table.The table/chairs have never moved.

richfaa · 09-26-2005, 03:19 AM

It is interesting that the after purchase questionnaire does not address quality.. Think I will have to ask them why that is on our visit to the factory>>>>

Montana_3768 · 09-27-2005, 04:25 PM

I like the idea of moving the table out from the day night shades. It would definately make it easier to open and close the shades. The reason I notice the table was not screwed down inf the first place was that it wobbled when we sat down to eat. Maybe if I moved it out a few inches the floor would be level and the table would not rock. Might try that when I get it back from the dealer. Now that I've figured out how to use this forum, I'm finding all kinds of good ideas here. Thanks a bunch to all of you.

BDana · 10-05-2005, 07:25 AM

Sorry to hear you are having Quality Control problems with your 3400. I had a Cherokee Trailer before my 3500RL and had the same problem with Quality Control. That was one major reason for getting the Montana which has good build quality.
The Service Tech who fixed many of the problems said that from his experience it makes a difference in what time of the production year the trailer was made. When the production period was going full bore there were more problems in the trailer than in slower periods which kind of makes sense.
It is shame that we have to put up with this. You pay good money for the unit and you should expect good Quality Control no matter when the trailer was built.
Hope this info helps. Good luck in getting it fixed to your satisfaction.

mobilrvn · 10-07-2005, 08:33 PM

Banjo Dave, I frimly believe that the only quality control is the customer, and we don't have much control. It is the little things that tell the story. Our Montana had a frame flex problem and many of our nearly 50 items that needed repair at the factory were directly or indrectly related to that incident. However, a lot of them weren't. I'm not talking about a bad piece of equipment, but when you read the various threads throughout the forums, it makes you wonder where they are buying the junk from that doesn't work and is replaced several times. Here are just a few examples of poor quality we've had.

Every P trap drain was loose and leaked.
Over half of the cupboard and drawer catches were misaligned.
Various nuts and screws weren't tightened properly.
Four of the kitchen and desk drawers fell apart.
The rear overhead cupboard fell apart.
When they replaced the countertop at the factory, they cracked the support post base, installed one of the support posts upsidedown, kinked the shielded faucet hose and did a poor job fixing a drawer crossbar which later broke.
The shower drain has been repaired three times and still leaks.
Three of the day/night shades were badly installed/damaged.
Storage compartment locks poorly installed.

Right now we are fighting with the factory over seven items they fixed which need repair. Our previous 5W was a Kit Road Ranger and it had less than a dozen repair items in 11 years and 150,000 miles that were quality related. And the Kit folks fixed it free at 5 and 6 years after the warranty expired--no arguements, just good customer relations. Too bad we fell in love with the 3575 floorplan: Kit didn't have a match.

Most of us repair more than half of the poor quality items because we don't want to go to the dealer and waste the time and money. I think that one of the biggest quality sins is staple construction. Everything just pulls and shakes apart. If the mfgrs. used glue along with the staples, 90% of those type of problems would disappear. How much glue could it possibly take to glue and staple, cupboards, drawers, etc?? Probably not more than two tubes at $5.00 a tube! But until everyone makes them do all the warranty work, nothing will change. After all these years, why are there still leaky slideouts, bad axles and tires, etc. Guess it must be because the Japanese don't make RVs!

While we were in Goshen, we visited the RV Museum in Elkhart. Amazing, some of those rigs built in the 30s had latches that would actually hold a cupboard door closed as you went down the road. Sometimes I don't think that we are making any progress. I know that the bottomline is important, but for $100 to $200 in better quality items, think that they would save that much per rig in fewer warranty claims.

Sunshine · 10-08-2005, 05:09 AM

Hubby bought a car once that was a total lemon. He finally talked with a customer service rep at the plant where the vehicle was made and mentioned that the car must have finished assembly on a Friday afternoon at 3:00 when all the workers were thinking about what they were going to do on the weekend. Hubby says the guy was able to check on that and that assumption turned out to be correct. Maybe that's what happens at Keystone - some of these rigs that have so many problems are inspected on Friday afternoons and the employee is thinking about his weekend and not inspecting properly.

richfaa · 10-08-2005, 06:27 AM

You would need to take a tour of the Montana plant(plant#4) to see how these units are built and ask questions as to HOW quality control is implemented.The best plant to tour is the Sprinter Plant at 1Pm on Tuesdays as that plant is in full operation and you can SEE how the workers perform their work tasks and HOW quality control is implemented. The Montana tour is at 2Pm so you can do both tours the same day. The Montana line is done for the day at tour time.mobilvn and banjodave have had the worst experiences that I haver seen on this forum since i've been a member. (Jan 05.) I do not believe that the day of the week or the time of the day has anything to do with the quality of the camper, it is rather quality control and how the program is implemented. It has been mentioned time and time again on this forum that these camper are built by men(and women) and they will make mistakes..That is absolutely true and that is exactly why organizations spend large sums of $ on effective quality control programs that will greatly reduce or eliminate assembly line errors. We can buy a better camper, tour the Newmar plant..See how that plant operates, check out their quality control then check out the cost of the product.(and you may still get a slide that leaks)In spite of Banjo daves and Mibilvn's experiences and .. I will bet others have had similar experiences.Keystone is aware of the impact of poor quality on the bottom line and is trying to address the issue.I don't know if that is a complement or not because what I just said was that Keystone is the best of the worst.

Organizational Development, Quality of working life, IE. I did these things for many years while in The Federal Government. I tour these plants with somewhat of a professional eye. I observe things that the average person would not.Keystone with all the warts is still the best bang for the buck.

lightningjack11 · 10-08-2005, 06:38 AM

These units are not machine made. They are handmade by humans so each unit will probably have it's own fingerprint. Humans make errors so each unit is skill of the craft.

I am still repairing my Montana kitchen drawers and getting ready for my next outing. Some of the wood framing is not cut even so repairs are difficult. I am using angle brackets with screws to hold the draw supports. What absolutely astounds me is that my drawers did not fall out before now. The cabinets are definately of low quality when you look at the inside framework.

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