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Old 12-04-2021, 01:54 AM   #1
Monty_Jim
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Bulge On Wall of Brand New Montana - Normal?

Hi guys,
I’m close to doing a deal on a brand new 2022 Montana 3855BR (beautiful unit!), but I have noticed there is a bulge on the wall of the passenger side of the unit right at the curve of the upper deck. It’s about a 1/4 inch bulge outward and 4 inches tall.

I’m including a photo, the pic makes it look a bit worse than it does in reality, but it’s definitely pronounce. The other actions that appear in the pic are reflections and nothing on the wall. I’ve marked the actual bulge with an arrow.

It’s rock solid feeling at the bulge so I don’t think the wall has become delaminated but I’m wondering if it could be a sign of something not being put together right or some flex going on during its trip from the factory? None of the other units at the dealership have this.

What do you folks think? Is it anything to worry about and have you seen anything like this before at this location on the wall of a Monty?

Thanks for your thoughts.
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Old 12-04-2021, 06:48 AM   #2
phillyg
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Just guessing, but it could be underlying frame flex. Best to check it out by having the dealer hook up a tow vehicle while you watch the bulge to see if it flexes. Would help to have someone inside looking for flexing and listening for crackling sounds at the front, too.
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Old 12-04-2021, 07:03 AM   #3
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All I can offer is opinion. It is based upon broken frame issues as discussed on this forum. Given the high stress location of this anomaly I would be concerned. If not just for a possible frame issue, future cracking of the siding as well. In thinking this matter through, fighting Keystone, down time, and finding a quality shop to dissect and correct it does not make for a happy camper.

This unit isn't the only one of its kind. I would pass for the next one to come in. Others will chime in and hopefully have better insight than mere opinion. Nice find and good luck with whatever decision you make.
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Old 12-04-2021, 07:34 AM   #4
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I worked in a hospital kitchen when I was in College. The Kitchen Head honcho dude had a hard and fast rule... hard and fast .... and it was never open for debate. I suppose he didn't want to be bothered with trivialities. He said .....

"If in doubt, throw it out!"

It really is that simple.

If you have doubts now, you will forever have doubts on this specific camper, and it will always be suspect in your mind and heart. You will NEVER be 100% comfortable, and it will always be a nagging concern in the back ground of your mind. In other words .... "If it doubt, throw it out." Use your better judgment.

The fact you posted the question on this forum to begin with tells me, you already have serious concerns for this defect. Follow your head .... NOT your heart! There IS another camper waiting for you that you will not have concerns like this about. Maybe a piece of trim, but nothing structural!

Again, "If in doubt, throw it out!"
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Old 12-04-2021, 08:46 AM   #5
lewy64
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If this is a major problem, and the dealer knows about it now. They realize they accepted a crippled RV and would want to get rid of it fast (make it someone else's problem). If they new about the problem before accepting it, then they probably got a good discount on it.

I would want it checked out. What does the frame look like from inside the battery/hydraulic compartment? Take a picture of the weld and the area around the suspect are in the compartment, climb in there if possible. If the paint is flaked or cracked at the weld that would make me believe the weld failed.

This could also be just an item between the laminate from the manufacturing. The way these things are thrown out the door now, i would expect this.

Im with DutchmenSport on this, throw it out if in doubt like they did at the factory.

Im not an expert, just my 2 cents.
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Old 12-04-2021, 12:15 PM   #6
Monty_Jim
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Thanks for the replies so far!

Yep, I can pass it over, but before doing so I’ve got to wonder if it’s nothing to be worried about and maybe if bulges in that area is pretty normal?

Not a easy unit to find and it’s got a bunch of special order features I want like Gen prep and the 400I solar system.

I checked the welds on the framing inside the front compartment and everything looked good, no cracked paint, etc, but the area in question is behind the inside paneling in there.

What I think it might be is the framing for the front compartment wall might not be perfectly lined up where it meets the side wall and it slightly pushed the side wall away right there.

I know the best decision is to just walk away, but that decision will be a big delay for us, so not a perfect choice either way. Again, any thoughts on this or if you’ve seen this type of bulge before would be most helpful.

I will let everyone know what comes of it next week when I go back to the dealership.
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Old 12-04-2021, 01:37 PM   #7
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Might be a tough decision either way, but look at it this way. A bit of a wait now for 2-5 months. Or worry about it for the next 10 years - or fewer if it falls apart.
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Old 12-28-2021, 07:18 PM   #8
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Sorry probably late to the show for you.....We have a 2016 Montana High Country that has the same issue but several more of the bubbling issue in an area near the living room slide. Our Frame for the slide was broke and had to be re-welded 4 years later. There was an issue from the very first time we had our RV and I didn't question it. I dont know if the bubbling issue was an indicator or not. Still love Montana and will be picking up a new 2022 Legacy edition next week.
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Old 12-29-2021, 07:44 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twindman View Post
Might be a tough decision either way, but look at it this way. A bit of a wait now for 2-5 months. Or worry about it for the next 10 years - or fewer if it falls apart.
I have 3 high studs on my unit. They are in the back by the drivers side living room slide. I have 1 near the front slide to. I saw these on my PDI and questioned this and he showed me other units in the line with the same thing but in different places with different degrees of bulges. They always seem to be around the slides. There was a post some time ago about this same subject if you want to look this up.
I have a mid `18 and never worried about it. Not sure I would want Keystone to take my camper for 4 to 6 months to fix minor imperfections by replacing the whole side of the camper and just end up with the same thing just in a different place. I know there are some that don`t have this and say "the sky is falling", happy for them but I wouldn`t worry about it.
This doesn't appear to be "frame flex", I had that and believe me you can tell if that`s the case, the moldings start to break loose and you can see obvious movement in the wall studs. When lowering the camper on your truck. Try this if you see movement pass on the unit.
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Old 12-31-2021, 08:28 AM   #10
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Mine too

Good morning,
My 2022 3121rl legacy with full body paint has the exact bulge on it. Now I’m wondering if it’s a defect that is going to rise up later.
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Old 12-31-2021, 11:25 AM   #11
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I DID have frame flex this fall. I had it on my last Montana too. Many are calling other things frame flex - it is really the welds along the side near slides breaking. When my dealer was fixing mine, he said they had to wait to get aluminum in for the replacement studs to weld in. I asked if they see this much and had experience in welding aluminum. He sort of quietly said that Montana has changed something and they have done a LOT of welds along the sides near slides.


I had an issue on the back where the studs along the lower section above the Jfenders had broken. The whole back wall twice had sort of detached and slid back and inch or two. They just screwed the wall back on the first time which lasted about 2 years and I tried it again last year and it lasted 1 year. This time they saw broken welds on 3 studs along the side. Fixed both sides so I hope it lasts this time. Between the front frame flex and these it was $6000 plus another $1000 for all new slide seals installed (which the seals were $4 a foot vs $1 a couple of years ago). I had done them myself a few years ago, but am getting too old to climb on the roof to do all this. Hope it all lasts. (sorry for being so wordy)
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Old 12-31-2021, 12:40 PM   #12
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nope

Quote:
Originally Posted by twindman View Post
I DID have frame flex this fall. I had it on my last Montana too. Many are calling other things frame flex - it is really the welds along the side near slides breaking. When my dealer was fixing mine, he said they had to wait to get aluminum in for the replacement studs to weld in. I asked if they see this much and had experience in welding aluminum. He sort of quietly said that Montana has changed something and they have done a LOT of welds along the sides near slides.


I had an issue on the back where the studs along the lower section above the Jfenders had broken. The whole back wall twice had sort of detached and slid back and inch or two. They just screwed the wall back on the first time which lasted about 2 years and I tried it again last year and it lasted 1 year. This time they saw broken welds on 3 studs along the side. Fixed both sides so I hope it lasts this time. Between the front frame flex and these it was $6000 plus another $1000 for all new slide seals installed (which the seals were $4 a foot vs $1 a couple of years ago). I had done them myself a few years ago, but am getting too old to climb on the roof to do all this. Hope it all lasts. (sorry for being so wordy)
Nope, the more information about these issues the better. It could help some one at a later date. I guess my problem with this is we are stiill talking about it weeks, months, years later. Don`t you think it`s about time they came up with a fix and be done it or do the campers have to cost $150,000.00 before they think it`s worth it.
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Old 12-31-2021, 12:56 PM   #13
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I don't think things will get better. Think about it. They use aluminum studs for the walls. At least at the back, they uses screws to attach the back wall to the side wall. I don't know if other areas also use screws, but maybe. Anyway, if you think about it - the whole things rocks and rolls down the highway. Screws will eventually pull thru the aluminum and things come apart.

In other areas the frame gets torqued by the twisting and rocking and eventually the welds break. The only thing I can think of is start using steel studs and welding them and bolting things together. But this adds a lot of weight. So you have to have 3 axles to support it and a 450 truck to pull it.
You kind of have a choice of cheaper product than we can afford - but will break if heavily used. Or spend much more money.
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Old 12-31-2021, 07:33 PM   #14
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One of the problems is they are poorly engineered. Think about aircraft that fly 600 mph and land thousands of times. How many of them are breaking apart? Obviously, trailer manufacturers are comfortable with their product as the same design failures are continued model year after model year. Follow the money and you'll find the problem.
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Old 12-31-2021, 08:10 PM   #15
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I understand why you want to accept this rig, but if it was me I wouldn't. We've had three Monty's and still own two and together they were towed well over 200,000 miles with no frame flex problems. But we never accepted a rig that we had concerns about.
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Old 01-01-2022, 06:02 PM   #16
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Sounds like you did a pretty thorough pre-delivery inspection. I wish I had.
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Old 01-01-2022, 06:10 PM   #17
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If you decide to accept the Montana anyway, you could use this defect to your advantage; threaten to walk away, and they might throw you a bone. Discount, extended warranty, etc.
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Old 01-03-2022, 11:13 PM   #18
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Hi Members,

I am the OP of this thread and want to provide everyone with an update of how it turned out for us.

This group is an excellent community and I have even been in touch with another member who has had the same concerned with a new 2022 Montana.

I spent over a week investigating this issue and ended up spending over 8 hours on the road over several days checking units at other dealerships. The reason being is this unit was a custom order for us and I did not want to simply walk away for a concern that might not be an issue at all plus the dealership was adamant this is “normal”.

What I concluded after looking at a dozen 2022 Montana’s and several previous year units is a bulge at this location is present about 75% of the time. In all, a bulge that is consistent with the one on the Montana we were about to buy is there most of the time. I can’t say I fully understand why some units do not have it, but I made several observations during my “investigation”. The longer units (i.e ones over 38 feet or so almost always have this bulge). It seems very consistent and prevalent on the 2022 models, which leads me to think it might be due to some strengthening at this location. I have heard this might indeed be the case as a gusset was added in the design here, but this remains unconfirmed. Nevertheless, most 2022’s have a bulge just like my 3855BR and all 4 2022 front living models (3700 series) I saw had this very bulge.

At this point, I concluded that it is normal and the last thing I would do is have the dealership lift the unit off the landing gear with their forklift and check and measure for frame flex. We did this the following week and I measured for frame flex as per the Lippert protocol. Frame flex measured 1/8” to a max of 3/16” and I saw no movement at the area where the bulge is. I also stood inside while lifting to see if there was any movement along the floor area or any creaking noises, of which there were none. Everything looked and sounded very good and I then proceeded to closely inspect the frame from inside the front compartment and everywhere I could see the welds. I have a long background in engineering and structural welding (bridge and rail industry), so I was able to go over this with a close eye. I even sounded welds with a hammer and there were no signs of any cracked paint or movement. Furthermore, I was pleased with the quality of the welding wherever I could see welds; they appear to have good penetration and were good clean beads.

After all the above, we decided to close the deal and purchase this unit. I fully realize in doing so we will have to live with whatever consequences arise from this decision, but I feel confident in the research I did, and I feel “the bulge” is not a problem. My way of looking at it is I could have passed on this unit to order another one that most likely will have the exact same bulge. Plus, in going over the whole unit it has a good fit and finish and we are very pleased with the cabinet work and how everything was put together. In seeing the other units I did as part of checking for the bulge there was a lot of sloppy cabinet work on some, so it became clear I could order another unit that would most likely come with the bulge as well and might have a fit and finish that was not as good as this one, so that was our reasoning in closing the deal.

I have provided the above report to hopefully help anyone who might have the same concern by what appears to be a very common bulge on 2022 Montana’s on the passenger side at the radius of the upper deck and sidewall. I also want to relay our experience by observing the fit and finish of each unit seems to vary greatly, which is actually quite sad and is something you need (in my opinion) to take into account.

I have come to think this bulge is caused by some reinforcing behind the wall or the fact there is some natural movement of the frame when it is being towed and the wall develops some slight deformation at this area, which almost always seems to be on the passenger side and more so on longer units. My engineering background tells me there naturally must be some frame movement or cracks would soon develop, so in my opinion and from what Lippert told me when I called them, flex up to 1/2” is normal. This flex would presumably cause the wall to slightly warp at areas where the amount of fastening to the trailer frame is likely not as robust as other locations.

I was also successful with getting the dealership to provide me with a letter saying they inspected the concern and felt it was normal, but if any defect were to occur, they will repair it and work with Keystone during the 3-year structural warranty period. I feel the letter does little to provide protection above and beyond the warranty, but I feel there is value in having the dealership acknowledge the existence of the bulge. This way they cannot claim it wasn’t there or was the result of something I did should it ever turn out to be a problem.

Anyway, that is the long version of my experience and how it turned out for us.

I encourage anyone buying a 2022 to post a photo of this bulge should they have it so it can be documented. Should it ever prove to be a defect having this thread online and people photographing the same condition could really help with ensuring proper warranty coverage from Keystone. I think as an owner’s community we need to document these sorts of things.

I really like the Montana product and after looking at many other brands I kept coming back to Montana, but they all have their issues and being on top of issues is invaluable in my opinion.

I want to wish everyone a Happy New Year’s and I really appreciate all your comments.

Best regards,
Monty_Jim
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Old 01-04-2022, 06:09 AM   #19
bshgto
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LOL

Quote:
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If you decide to accept the Montana anyway, you could use this defect to your advantage; threaten to walk away, and they might throw you a bone. Discount, extended warranty, etc.
After 30 years in business I encountered a few people with this attitude. I just said "next in line please".
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Old 01-04-2022, 07:45 AM   #20
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Thanks for that update. The research you did should give peace of mind about your concern.
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