Who buys a Montana - What is the MOC

[Irlpguy]

So who exactly buys a Montana:

I suspect we are the same people who buy any other brand of RV, we do research, we listen to the sales representatives and more than likely we look at what it is we want in interior design, floor plan, storage and whatever it is that draws us to one make/model over another. I believe Keystone has in the recent past been the leader in floor design and convenience features. That may or may not be the case anymore but their sales indicate they are either the leader or among the leaders based on basic price of comparative RV’s.

So we buy it because we like what we “see” and what we think meets our needs and will give us long term livability and purported after sales support. One portion of this equation of course is based on the sales pitch we are given. Do we really consider after sales support as a factor, either from our dealer and manufacturer, or do we tend to listen once again to the sales pitches and what we are told in those pitches, most likely the latter. For the most part we are the most gullible consumers there are, particularly if we are purchasing our first 5th wheeler and happen to be first time owners.

We buy because we like that which has been presented to us visually, what has been represented to us by the sales people and what we consider will meet our needs at a price we are willing to pay. This may or may not be accurate with every Montana or SOB owner but might be close.

So now: What is the MOC:

Of course everyone who is a member knows it is a group of members who share a common thing: That being they own or have owned or plan on buying a Montana. But really what else does the MOC represent. Lets consider some things:

It allows owners the opportunity to connect with other owners of the same brand of RV, thereby offering the opportunity to meet/discuss with owners various aspects of same or similar units.

It certainly offers a huge knowledge base gleaned from years of not only Montana ownership but years of RV experience by a large number of its members.

It offers the opportunity to discuss problems and issues related to the various Montana models and how those problems were solved and overcome.

It offers the opportunity for those who have made modifications to share those interesting and innovative modifications with other members.

It offers the opportunity for owners to meet in fairly large groups to get to know one another, make friends and share their experiences.

I could go on with this but you all know more than I what it is the MOC represents.

Now let me present what I feel the MOC does “NOT” represent (my opinion only):

As a fraternity of owners of a particular model/brand specific RV I do not see the MOC using it’s sizable membership clout to champion for the good of all members and owners of the Montana brand as a whole.
I feel the large membership of the MOC could have a substantial influence on how Keystone treats those who buy their product. There are some members who go out of their way to assist others in their dealings with Keystone, unfortunately there are a greater number who appear not willing to stand up and support and champion for all owners.

I ask myself why this is, and can only guess that some folks are more concerned with their own problems and their resolution than that of the many Montana owners as a whole. I make this evaluation based on the results some have achieved when they attend a national rally where in most cases their problems are dealt with, not always to their complete satisfaction but overall they are satisfied with the results. Are those who attend these rallies reluctant to champion and pressure Keystone to be more responsive to “all” owners because they are afraid it might diminish their own efforts to receive satisfaction or just because they don’t think or care about the big picture.

Sadly I have the feeling that they are more concerned with getting results for themselves than they are for the owners/members as a whole. Of course that is human nature, but this very large group of people are missing an opportunity to speak for those that cannot attend rallies, those who have not been treated as they themselves have been treated simply because they were able to attend a rally and get the attention of someone who can actually do something first hand. More importantly those who attend are missing the opportunity to pressure Keystone to improve their customer relations and honor their commitment to the many other owners.

I sincerely ask all members, can this membership not use it’s considerable weight to pressure Keystone to honor their warranties to all owners, can we not use our membership to assist others who are not receiving fair and equitable treatment in their dealings with Keystone and dealers. Or are we really not willing/able to be of any value in that effort. Are we just unpaid salespersons for Keystone.

I would like to think we are more than salespersons and can and should do all we can for the betterment of all Montana owners. Thanks for listening.

[boat391]

I like the way you state your case. I do feel however that the M O C is not a lobbying entity just a great group of owners that want to share with one another. Ifor one have owned two montys and have had great results dealing with my dealers. As for others I can't speak. I feel the best result comes from dealership and if that doesn't work then Keystone this is where I believe Keystone could do a better job of support. That said I haven't had to go there yet.
I do think Keystone as a corporation would become a better company if they would come to the table of groups like this and open there ears. I understand that all of us can't speak and that in order for this to work we would need a leader to speak for all. This is not why this club was formed IMHO.

[JandC]

That was very well said Irlpguy. I agree 100% with everything you have stated. I also fully understand what boat391 is saying. From his experience, which has been positive from his dealer, he sees no need to extend the reach of the MOC to include a lobbying effort for other Montana owners who are not having their factory warranties honored by Keystone RV.

However, the problem with taking that stance is it will not help the problems go away with some of these recent quality control problems and warranty denial problems. What will happen is these issues will probably soon be addressed by RV national publications. When literally hundred of thousands of RVers read in their monthly publications that the "best selling Keystone Montana models" are built with missing straps on their holding tanks, which cause tank failures, and improper lamination/installation of roofing material, what will the result be?

How can Keystone RV defend these practices? Will they blow it off when asked about it from a national RV publication? Will they correct the issues and start supporting their holding tanks and start using screws on their roofs? How will they explain to a widespread RV community that they are justified in denying failed holding tank and defective roof repairs?

I do not want to see these types of workmanship issues published outside of the MOC forum. I want Keystone RV to do the right thing and correct their defective workmanship issues under the warranty they provided, it is really as simple as that. Why should a loyal brand owner like Richfaa have to sit at his winter site in Florida with broken holding tanks and go around and around with Keystone? Why should many of us, still under warranty, have to keep submitting claims showing our roofs coming apart only to be rejected by Keystone?

The MOC needs to organize and try to work with Keystone RV immediately on these issues. If these issues are brought forth to the general RVing public in a national publication.....then everyone on this forum can simply watch while the value of their Montana models sink to nothing. If we allow these two simple common defects, and Keystone's refusal to fix them, become common knowledge then I am guessing the Montana will have a lasting reputation of being a cheaply made junk FW that is backed up by a worthless warranty.

Even though the purpose of the MOC may not have anything to do with coming together as one voice to address issues with Keystone RV, I would like to see one of two things happen in the next couple of months. Either we do organize, collect the data on these failures/warranty issues, and have representative approach Keystone in Goshen, or we at least contact them with some sort of letter writing campaign. I am open to any suggestions prior to making this common knowledge in the RV community that Keystone is having some quality issues and are not honoring their factory warranty.

But make no mistake, if these issues are not addressed soon it will effect the reputation of the Montana models, and thus the value of all of our units.

[DQDick]

Having been a former Rally Master for the Fall Rally in Goshen I can attest to the fact that the members that attend that Rally hold Keystone's feet to the fire. Anyone who was there for the several years that Marathon tire carcasses were brought to the Rally's can attest to that. Did it change Keystone's thinking, only to a degree. 614's became an option for those who knew better. Many other changes in the rigs can be directly attributed to complaints laid on Keystone at that event. Now the problem, the group at the Rally talks directly to the president and main decision makers at Keystone but what kind of pressure do we really put on? Not very much when that group consists of such a small number of the membership. I would suggest that if we want a bigger voice we should show up for a meeting with the top people like we really cared and in numbers that showed it.
Ok, now someone help me down off my soapbox. I'm old and my knees hurt.

[JandC]

In all fairness to the top brass at Keystone RV, maybe they don't know a problem this big exists, or maybe they are being told that the aforementioned issues are being addressed under warranty.....or maybe they are just trying to make more profits. With over 8,000 members, even having a couple representative formally schedule a meeting with the President of Keystone and/or the top decision makers could be helpful.

Whatever the process, or if a majority of MOC members even want to investigate having a process for addressing these issues, then like Irlpguy points out the MOC needs to take advantage of its sizable numbers to make an impression on Keystone.

Any meeting representing the MOC does not need to be confrontational nor accusatory in nature toward Keystone RV. I think most would agree that our position is simply that we are all PROUD owners of a product that has had a relatively good reputation. However, as owners of this specific brand/model we have come to realize that there are the following recent issues ____(and)____. In addition, these issues are being rejected when submitted for factory warranty repair. Therefore in an effort to help Keystone maintain their reputation in the wider RV community we wanted to bring all of this to the attention of the staff at Keystone RV before it became a problem of larger proportions.

[DarMar]

IMHO I would like to see Keystone appoint someone to be involved in the MOC forum(as in an active member).

That would involve dealing with these MAJOR issues that arise from member's participation on the forum and offer feedback and possible solutions/contacts to get the ball rolling to resolve them. Through this channel we could also offer our hands on advice on how to improve the product or correct what we consider simply design flaws.


I totally agree with your approach:

"Any meeting representing the MOC does not need to be confrontational nor accusatory in nature toward Keystone RV. I think most would agree that our position is simply that we are all PROUD owners of a product that has had a relatively good reputation. However, as owners of this specific brand/model we have come to realize that there are the following recent issues ____(and)____. In addition, these issues are being rejected when submitted for factory warranty repair. Therefore in an effort to help Keystone maintain their reputation in the wider RV community we wanted to bring all of this to the attention of the staff at Keystone RV before it became a problem of larger proportions."

Likewise when it came to the Keystone contact person on the forum we would have to ensure that any bashing or flaming would result in the same discipline shown to all other members on this forum.

Yes Keystone we are all PROUD owners, many on our 3rd or 4th unit, now lets keep it that way!!!

[bigskyjimmy]

I tell ya folks Keystone better watch out for the Company Grand Designs (former Keystone Execs) many of their exec's and Customer service people follow their Forum (and it is NOT GD's Forum) and respond to Customer needs and that is the reason they are the fastest growing 5er company in the last 2 years,it is NOT because there RV's are better built,(I have 3 friends with them) they LISTEN to Customers!,now IF they get as big as Montana that may change but as of now that Company is trying to do it right,So why did I not buy one???? Montana still has the best bang for the buck out there and Grand Designs still is a little behind the times A.K.A. 10 in frame, inferior electronics,etc... But they are close

[richfaa]

I do agree with most of what IRLpguy says. Many of us do hold Keystones feet to the fire. IMO more should do the same. Keystone does or at least has responded to those at the fall rally. We know many issues have been resolved by MOC member input and some design issues have been resolved.

Other manufactures do sponsor or run their owner forum. I don't know if that is a good idea or not. Keystone does provide support to the MOC and they have or do monitor the forum.

It is also my opinion that many here do not want to hear negative things about the product they paid so much money for. It is also my opinion that many here have issues with their Montana and will not share them. Minor or minimal problems are problems and sharing them may help others.

We have been members of the MOC since 2005 and the forum has been of great value to me. The greatest value has been members talking about issues they had and how they corrected them. We have also have hundreds of great MOC friends that we have met over those years at rallies across the country.

Their are a couple of manufacturers as IRLpguy mentioned that are breathing down Keystones neck. IMO Keystone needs to pay attention.

It is also my opinion that Build quality and service has deteriorated over the last few years and I do not just say that here and have expressed my opinion to the highest levels.

I have said before that if I thought there was a better brand out there for the money we would have it.

BTW we do speak to the highest levels of management at the fall rally every year and as some can testify we do hold their feet to the fire.

[mhs4771]

I think it comes down to sheer numbers: How many active MOC members vs the total number of Montana products sold, any body know?
I personally have talked to many Montana Owners and asked if they were members of the MOC, most say "Nope" and of those many know nothing about it and aren't interested. I've given out MOC cards, but don't know of a single owner that ever followed up on it.
My own BIL has a Montana and has first hand experience with some of the issues that he would of had a heads up on if he joined here.
So the proverb comes to mind "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink".

[bigskyjimmy]

True Story!! I have asked MANY Montana Owners on the road(3 at my resort right now) and same thing they do not care or never heard of it...so heck I just gave up telling people,...their loss

quote:Originally posted by mhs4771

I think it comes down to sheer numbers: How many active MOC members vs the total number of Montana products sold, any body know?
I personally have talked to many Montana Owners and asked if they were members of the MOC, most say "Nope" and of those many know nothing about it and aren't interested. I've given out MOC cards, but don't know of a single owner that ever followed up on it.
My own BIL has a Montana and has first hand experience with some of the issues that he would of had a heads up on if he joined here.
So the proverb comes to mind "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink".

[rafael33155]

if you could get all the member in this forum to attend the rally i think keystone would listen but it's impossible people are unable to attend those rally for a lot of reason for me i'm still working and i live in miami florida no way i could attend the rally .keystone representative only see a little fraction of members insignificant number of complains to make them rethink shape up or ship out checkout this website http://keystone-rv.******consumer.com/ the word missing is p.i.s.s.e.d for some reason the word don't come out 152 complain about keystone poor workmanship you can voice your opinion there and write articles don't know if keystone reads it i doubt it but a lot of complains if we get together as a whole there's a web site i belong to it's called www.change.org what you do write a petition like "we demand keystone to addrees quality issues on their rv's and honor their warranties then you send it to people and get it sing and will be deliver to keystone i think that would work trust me it get's done when you have thousands of people signing the petition

[sambam]

True, there is strength in numbers, but what is the percentage of Montana owners on this forum? I'm guessing 10% would be pretty optimistic. Even if everyone showed up at Keystone's door, I bet nothing would change. Bottom line is selling the product. Eventually, lousy customer service and workmanship will catch up, but we are a nation of people not paying close enough attention to the important issues. Just throw it away and move onto the next. Let's face it, if you aren't handy, you better not get into this game. Don't expect the manufacturer to make it right. Yes they should honor warranty's and such, but, at the end of the day there seems to be a caveat to everything. You need to buy a product with eyes open, and be prepared to be disappointed. That's the reality of today's world. Look no further than the US Government for proof of that.

[richfaa]

We go to the fall rallies because we live @ 3 hours from Goshen. We prefer to go to Goshen to have major repairs done because there are many quality repair facilities there that work on many rv's all the time. We would not go to the fall rallies or Goshen if we lived 500 or 1000 miles away. We are told that over 60K Montana's have been built and only a fraction of those are members of the MOC. We attend at least two regional rallies every year. We are both retired so we have the time.

We have owned Rv's of one type or another for 25 years. We have sold Rv's at local Rv shows. We have toured most of the manufacturers factories in the Goshen/Elkhart area perhaps all of them as well as most of the vendors. The brands use the same vendors, Draw from the same workforce and use similar assembly line methods. The result is the quality we get in our Rv's.

The rally area we use at the fairgrounds can hold about 100 + units full hookups. The fall rally is a good thing If you can get there and touring the facilities is a education in the RV industry. We have few vendor provided items that fail example our hot water tank problem this winter was not with the tank but with the Installation of the tank at the Montana plant. Our Holding tank failures IMO and that of others is not with the tanks but with the installation of the tanks. Our lights that fell off the ceiling were not defective lights but defective installation. The wall panels that pulled out were not defective panels but improper installation. It goes on and on. We knew these kind of things would probably happen because we knew the RV industry. We are not surprised just disappointed.

This forum IMO serves its intended purpose. It would be nice if we could share more in terms of problem solving but I do not think that will happen. It would be nice If Keystone would take a more active roll but I do not think that will happen.

The best thing about this forum for us has been the many friends we have gained since 2005.We will be taking a less active role here and all our issues will be minor or minimal.

[Irlpguy]

I want to thank all of you who have so far responded to my post. My intention was never to divide the membership in any way, I would be truly disappointed if that happened.

Most, if not all the responders have made suggestions, offered insight into reasons why not all of us can or are prepared to travel to attend a national rally and good points on the amount of attention paid to the small number of MOC members who do attend.

I pose a question to those who have attended the rally in Goshen: If during the sessions with the "big wigs" you were to ask a question such as "There are some MOC members who currently or in the past have not been able to have their issues dealt with by Keystone, they have done all that was asked of them but their claims are still being denied. Please tell us why this is happening. If you want specifics we can provide that to you." What do you think the response would be.

It has been said that for many years attendee's at the national rally "held Keystone's feet to the fire" over the Marathon tires and other issues. With respect to the Marathons, the only time a change took place was when a different tire became available that supposedly is rated high enough to not de-rate the axles and carry the load on the bigger Montana's. Making the G614 available as an option was their solution to ongoing problems with the Marathon, but don't forget they still put Marathons on even the bigger RV's that did not pay for the G614 option. It is my opinion they did nothing and still have not addressed the issue except to put a higher rater Chinese made tire on the rigs, still with the G614 as an option rather than OEM.

The major, or most common recent failures we have been discussing have been holding tanks and roof problems, they are not at all a representation of all the problems due to poor quality build and QC issues, and everyone is very aware of that.

I am not sure those who attend the National rally do so in sufficient numbers to impress Keystone executives, Keystone among other suppliers will do their best to fix those attendees problems to appease them. However this represents a very small portion of not only the membership, but Keystone owners overall. They are not likely shaking in their boots by what a few have to say during meetings and are therefore content to see those who attend go away happy and praise Keystone with what was done for them. Cheap and easy advertising when you consider the big picture with respect to warranty claims.

I have had many problems with my Montana, some big and many not so big, I have had warranty work done on the biggest problem, that being frame flex, the rest I dealt with through the suppliers and have had great results after being denied by Keystone.

Now I have a roof problem as do many others, I don't have staples protruding into the roofing material as do some others but in my opinion the issue should be dealt with by Keystone, not necessarily replace my whole roof but repair the problem "under warranty". I don't think that is asking too much.

I will never be buying another RV at my age, all I want to do is be able to take the Montana which I bought in good faith at a considerable cost and enjoy it. I don't want to be fighting battles to obtain warranty in order to be able to do that. But I damn sure will, not only on my behalf but on behalf of those who I would hope would support me as well.

The membership of the MOC are a great group of people, whether you support an effort to assist others in their battles with Keystone is your personal choice as it should be. Much has been learned by many here and will continue to be learned from this forum, that is not going to change.

[bigskyjimmy]

quote:Originally posted by bigskyjimmy

Extended Wararanty, service contract Whatever it is still better than a kick in the teeth and nothing at all after 1 year ,mine was thrown in on the deal on my 2015,and even when i paid 2K like I did on my Last Monty it is still worth Piece of mind IMO and save most people some BIG bucks if something goes wrong(like in a bunch of cases with ALOT of SOB owners as well) just do not forget there are ALOT of Montana owners that LOVE their RV's Including ME and have not had ANY problems with Keystone

It has to start at the top. The "big wigs" show up at the rally, listen and make notes. Then go back and do nothing.

Their pay plans are tied to net profits. In the auto business, my pay was based on both net and CSI. Everyone from the parts counter guys, the warranty clerk, the service advisers, even the porter that brought the car around at the end of the day, their pay was tied to CSI.

Word getting out about the warranty, means nothing. A used unit has no warranty and the second owner does not expect any help from the manufacturer. The once quality product is now just another used 5th wheel.

I want to caution those that "think" they bought a extended warranty. They bought a "service contract" that covers certain listed parts, or covers a list of parts that are not on the exclusion list. NO ONE can sell you a extended warranty, only a service contract.

[/quote]

[rafael33155]

ok to all that haved or will be adding to this topic tell me what you want from keystone like quality customer service etc i'm going to make a petition in www,change.org that will be send to ownerrelations@keystonerv.com voice your concern and displeasure and what you want to be addressed by keystone

[richfaa]

You are correct although they are marketed as "extended warranties" they are indeed Service contracts Both of mine were clearly marked "service Contracts" Both ours were exclusionary and what was NOT covered was clearly stated. We had copies sent to us for review before we purchased and actually had a Attorney look it over and tell us exactly what we were buying. There are pre conditions also clearly stated such as "pre approval" and we never had a problem when followed. Understand also that your regular RV insurance policy will cover many repairs that the "service contract" does not. It is all in understanding what you are purchasing.

In our case the service contract's were good buys. We would not be without one on the RV. Just us.

[richfaa]

"I pose a question to those who have attended the rally in Goshen: If during the sessions with the "big wigs" you were to ask a question such as "There are some MOC members who currently or in the past have not been able to have their issues dealt with by Keystone, they have done all that was asked of them but their claims are still being denied. Please tell us why this is happening. If you want specifics we can provide that to you." What do you think the response would be"....... I do not recall that specific question being asked perhaps someone else has. Tredit the tire vendor has said that they provide what the manufacturer asks for. Keystone has stated that many buyers did not want to pay the extra cost of the better G614 tires OEM. Many of us pushed for the option for those who would pay the price and I believe that has happened.

In our case we have had very good luck in dealing with Keystone on issues both in and out of warranty...thus far. We have been to I think 4 dealers around the country besides our selling dealer and one was not Montana dealer but a Keystone dealer and have been completely satisfied. This is just one case but it happened. Now we are not happy with build quality or quality control and never have been and Keystone/Montana knows that. That is just us.

[Artemus Gordon]

Admittedly I did not read all the lengthy responses above. While I believe the MOC has clout, it must use it carefully and sparingly. Having been involved with customer service and issues/concerns with customers, it's easy to get suckered into someone's "individual agendas". I have read many so call "terrible customer service stories" even on our MOC site. I read them, and then read their other posts. Some come here for only one purpose, to lament. Let's face it "some people" have unrealistic expectations from their purchases. Some people are just unhappy negative soles! Others who complain, have burnt bridges with dealers, Keystone and refuse to seek out other avenues to resolve problems. When I read four paragraph detailed complaints posted, I exercise caution. I would regret that this forum elect to get into business of being a Bully Pulpit or consumer protection. Give constructive assistance, provide names of reliable people at Keystone, like we currently provide. Becoming anything else puts us in the consumer protection business IMHO!

[bigskyjimmy]

TRUE THAT Artemus ,Well said IMO

quote:Originally posted by Artemus Gordon

Admittedly I did not read all the lengthy responses above. While I believe the MOC has clout, it must use it carefully and sparingly. Having been involved with customer service and issues/concerns with customers, it's easy to get suckered into someone's "individual agendas". I have read many so call "terrible customer service stories" even on our MOC site. I read them, and then read their other posts. Some come here for only one purpose, to lament. Let's face it "some people" have unrealistic expectations from their purchases. Some people are just unhappy negative soles! Others who complain, have burnt bridges with dealers, Keystone and refuse to seek out other avenues to resolve problems. When I read four paragraph detailed complaints posted, I exercise caution. I would regret that this forum elect to get into business of being a Bully Pulpit or consumer protection. Give constructive assistance, provide names of reliable people at Keystone, like we currently provide. Becoming anything else puts us in the consumer protection business IMHO!