Size Truck

[Ginaandrobert]

We just bought 2018 3561 RL. Deciding on new truck and looking at a GMC 2500. It’s so confusing on what size truck we need! Suggestions please!

[sourdough]

That's a 16,600lb. gvw trailer. 2500 (3/4 ton) truck isn't in the picture for that size trailer.

The old saw for me is this; truck dictates the trailer OR the trailer dictates the truck. In this case you have purchased the trailer so it is now incumbent to get the truck suitable for it.

Take the gvw of the trailer and multiply by 22% = 16, 600 x .22 = 3652lbs. That will be outside the realm of a gas 3/4 ton much less a diesel - which is a MUST to tow that much weight.

Without digging into it further, which it doesn't warrant, that trailer requires a diesel dually of your choice.

[Creeker]

I would pull it all over this country with a 1 ton 350/3500 single rear wheel Diesel. No Dually for me.

If you guys are full-timers and will be carrying nearly everything you own, I would suggest a Dually. Diesel regardless of your choice.

[Montana Man]

A 2500 is out if you are concerned about safety and legalities. A srw 3500 could work but only if the gvwr on the door jam pencils out. Some 3500s really don't have the capacity. You have to check the rating for each truck you are considering as they are all different. A drw would likely be safe.

[jeffba]

Can you currently tow it? If so load it up and get it weighed. make sure truck is loaded also.

Once you do that you will know your pin weight you can decide from there.

[Slow Hand]

You will never have enough truck

Every body needs a DRW. My suggestion something with a Bulldog on the hood. Then you have enough truck.

[Ram Montana High Country]

Originally Posted by sourdough

That's a 16,600lb. gvw trailer. 2500 (3/4 ton) truck isn't in the picture for that size trailer.

The old saw for me is this; truck dictates the trailer OR the trailer dictates the truck. In this case you have purchased the trailer so it is now incumbent to get the truck suitable for it.

Take the gvw of the trailer and multiply by 22% = 16, 600 x .22 = 3652lbs. That will be outside the realm of a gas 3/4 ton much less a diesel - which is a MUST to tow that much weight.

Without digging into it further, which it doesn't warrant, that trailer requires a diesel dually of your choice.

So, I've never seen the formula before. Is the 3652 lbs the anticipated max pin weight (depending on loading) that could be experienced?

[kowbra]

Originally Posted by Slow Hand

You will never have enough truck

Every body needs a DRW. My suggestion something with a Bulldog on the hood. Then you have enough truck.

Nah, you need one with a KW on the hood

But seriously, there is a point that is "enough" truck and a point that is actually too much truck. I believe each one needs to find that balance and make their informed decision.

It's easy to say "buy a dually", and for many that is their choice. But for others a dually is not the right choice and never will be. An example is that most residential garages will not fit a dually but they often fit a CC SB. Or parking spots at your work may fit a SB but not dually. Then add in a wife who says "I will never drive that!", and many will find a 3500 diesel SRW to be the sweet spot for them.

If you tow 100%, skip the dually and buy a MDT hauler or maybe even an HDT.
If you tow 2% on flat land, you might even be ok with a gas 2500.
Most of us are somewhere in the middle, and that's where the grey area is. For us, it is a 3500 SRW. Of course, YMMV

Brad

[Ram Montana High Country]

Pulling, stopping, legal are not always considered. For me, it is LEARNING/Using - GVWR & GCWVR. GM has been publishing some out of the norm numbers for GVWR/GCVWR. One thing most fully understand/appreciate is the additional stability gain with a dually on windy days.

[kowbra]

Originally Posted by Ram Montana High Country

So, I've never seen the formula before. Is the 3652 lbs the anticipated max pin weight (depending on loading) that could be experienced?

The standard formula for manufacturers recommended tow ratings is to allow a pin weight of 10% of total GVWR for bumper pull trailers, and 15% for 5th wheel trailers.
Most would say that 15% is unrealistically low, and some will say it can be as high as 25%. Somewhere in between is common, so 22% may not be far off, however it could be a bit lower or higher. I usually start with 20% when trying to sort things out.
It really does make a difference though; for a Montana with 16,800 GVRW the hitch weight could be as little as 2500lbs or as much as 4200lbs+. At 20% it is around 3360lbs and that is what I am planning on. I would not feel comfortable buying a truck to handle 2500lbs pin weight then find out that I am hundreds of pounds over.

But in the end, each of us needs to load it up and get it weighed to make sure.

hth
Brad

[Ram Montana High Country]

Originally Posted by kowbra

The standard formula for manufacturers recommended tow ratings is to allow a pin weight of 10% of total GVWR for bumper pull trailers, and 15% for 5th wheel trailers.
Most would say that 15% is unrealistically low, and some will say it can be as high as 25%. Somewhere in between is common, so 22% may not be far off, however it could be a bit lower or higher. I usually start with 20% when trying to sort things out.
It really does make a difference though; for a Montana with 16,800 GVRW the hitch weight could be as little as 2500lbs or as much as 4200lbs+. At 20% it is around 3360lbs and that is what I am planning on. I would not feel comfortable buying a truck to handle 2500lbs pin weight then find out that I am hundreds of pounds over.

But in the end, each of us needs to load it up and get it weighed to make sure.


Brad

I appreciate the knowledge. I think possible the other side folks sometimes miss is the weight added to the truck - Fifth wheel hitch, people, pets, fuel, camping supplies, etc. It adds up quick. I had a '17 3/4 ton and 36' 5er - weighted out 700 over on axle and 1700 on truck. Fixed that, bought a 0ne ton - then DW wanted the RIGHT 5er ... life is very enjoyable now.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Ram Montana High Country

So, I've never seen the formula before. Is the 3652 lbs the anticipated max pin weight (depending on loading) that could be experienced?

Lots of folks "look" at a new RV or truck wondering if it will fit the other component. A generally safe way to calculate, since the prospective owner doesn't own the combo and can't scale it, is to use 13% of the gvw for tongue weight of a bumper pull (my last was 12%) and 21% of gvw for the pin weight of a 5th wheel (what mine is). The range is usually 10-15% of gvw for a bumper pull and 15-25% for a 5th wheel. IMO 15% is too light.

Many will say "I'll never tow that heavy (gvw)", well, that's good. Having a cushion is a very good thing. Newbies have no idea of what all they will eventually have stuffed in the trailer and truck and start off thinking a pillow, sleeping bag and box of Wheaties will do it - of course that is wrong.

As far as DRW/SRW/diesel/gas; there is a line that runs through all of them. The gas engine has a bigger payload BUT at the upper end, if loaded to its max, it will have a very hard time pulling the size of trailer that payload will allow. When that happens the diesel is the logical step BUT the payload is reduced by the weight of the engine and weight restrictions then mandate a trailer smaller than the capabilities of the engine. Then come the trade offs; big trailer = diesel = smaller payload = 3500 or DRW.

When you hit the point above, as I have done several times, you have to choose what is most important to you at the time; the RV and the desired amenities or the truck and whatever criteria you require of it. I finally reached the latter situation with this trailer/truck after always picking the trailer then the truck to fit. For us we hit "the razor's edge" so to speak; the criteria I set for a truck (no diesel, do drw) then 100% dictates what I can have weight wise due to the limited abilities of a gas engine. I went with the MHC because of weight although it was not in my top 5 - the others required the drw/diesel. I could have gotten a larger trailer using the formula and maxing out my payload but I like a safety cushion AND a larger trailer with a gas engine is just asking for frustration IMO.

A long post but it's a process that has worked well for me for many years and a good baseline to use for potential buyers. JMO/YMMV

[432bartman]

I have a new 2500 Chevy that pulls my Montana, which is the same weight category as yours. Pulls it perfectly, no issues and it can tow 18,500lbs. I bought my truck prior to the Montana. The Montana I found used, which was less than a year old and a steal of a deal. Knowing now about pin weight, I would step up to a single rear wheel 3500. I don't think cost is much difference between a 2500 and 3500. Get the 3500. By the way, the new Duramax and 10 speed Allison is awesome...by far the best from GM.

[twindman]

The standard 20 or 22% of GVWR for hitch weight is ballpark. I kind of wondered and had an epiphany today. My rig has GVWR of 14,050. I only load it to about 13,500. The manual specs say pin is 2055. (of course that is empty). My pin wt. is around 2400-2500. So 20% of 14K is 2800 lb. Why am I so light. 2500/13500 (actual numbers) my pin wt. is 18.5%

So I think the axle placement should also be considered, which is what the specs sort of do. So I think you should kind of look at the specs to see how a particular unit compares to the others. i.e. Same year mountaineer that is 18" longer has a listed pin wt. of 2700 lb. That is 650 lb more for only 18". So maybe a sliding scale after looking at the specs vs. other units.

[kowbra]

Originally Posted by twindman

The standard 20 or 22% of GVWR for hitch weight is ballpark. I kind of wondered and had an epiphany today. My rig has GVWR of 14,050. I only load it to about 13,500. The manual specs say pin is 2055. (of course that is empty). My pin wt. is around 2400-2500. So 20% of 14K is 2800 lb. Why am I so light. 2500/13500 (actual numbers) my pin wt. is 18.5%

So I think the axle placement should also be considered, which is what the specs sort of do. So I think you should kind of look at the specs to see how a particular unit compares to the others. i.e. Same year mountaineer that is 18" longer has a listed pin wt. of 2700 lb. That is 650 lb more for only 18". So maybe a sliding scale after looking at the specs vs. other units.

Tom, I think you raise a very good point and I can see where floorplan matters. You can see that in looking at the specs of various floorplans online, where the empty pin weights are a different percentage of the empty weight.

It's understandable; some floorplans have storage bays in the front only, whereas a number of newer floorplans have rear exterior storage.
In the case of our floorplan, a 3790RD, there is far more storage in the rear than in the front. I've heard from some on other threads where they say they have to be careful not to overload the rear and cause the pin weight to be too light. I'm guessing that we will have a bit of flexibility to get the pin weight where we want it, whereas others with the more traditional front storage only may have less flexibility.

Brad

[mlh]

If I didn’t have a truck and it sounds like you are in the market I would buy a 3500 of 350 and give serious condensation to a DRW. truck.
Lynwood

[BobStack]

I have a 2020 3781RL which weighs in at 16,000lbs and hitch at 2750lbs thanks to the washer dryer. I tow with a 2020 GMC 3500 Denali Diesel SRW and she handles it like a dream. Not an ounce of sway and I average between 10.7 and 11 mpg. I have a 21k Demco slider hitch and can put my Monty at 90 degrees without getting close to anything in the truck... and it fits in a parking space!! Very happy with both purchases!!

[beeje]

It would not matter to me as long as the yellow sticker on the door jamb says at least 4000lbs payload capacity. A lot of SWR 1 tons can not meet that capacity.

[LERD]

Originally Posted by kowbra

Tom, I think you raise a very good point and I can see where floorplan matters. You can see that in looking at the specs of various floorplans online, where the empty pin weights are a different percentage of the empty weight.

It's understandable; some floorplans have storage bays in the front only, whereas a number of newer floorplans have rear exterior storage.
In the case of our floorplan, a 3790RD, there is far more storage in the rear than in the front. I've heard from some on other threads where they say they have to be careful not to overload the rear and cause the pin weight to be too light. I'm guessing that we will have a bit of flexibility to get the pin weight where we want it, whereas others with the more traditional front storage only may have less flexibility.

Brad

Wouldn't it also be great if when you looked at a certain floorplan, you could see a diagram of where all of your tanks are installed! Then you could get a much better grasp of what kind of pin weight ratio change you could be looking at with and without water. All of your water!

[Dam Worker]

These posts usually blow up quickly. You can tow that unit with just about anything, what it boils down to is your safety, convenience and money. People will tell you it is fine because they do this or that. Bottom line is do your homework and then make your decision based on safety, convenience and money. I would go with a minimum of one ton SRW but I have been doing that for over two decades. Because of the minimal price difference it just makes sense to do so. Depending on your numbers you could go to a Dually even better then the SRW. I have towed with numerous one ton rigs both SRW and DRW and there is no comparison between the two. Regular straight level road and no wind, pretty much a wash. Steep mountain passes with lots of curves or really windy areas or combinations of these the SRW is not even in the same league as the DRW. Congratulations on the new unit and good luck on the upcoming tow vehicle.

Happy and safe roads to you.

Tom