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Old 05-21-2005, 06:16 PM   #1
Montana_3811
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Warranty Information for Full Timers !

Here is a little information for those of us who like to call ourselves "Full Timers". On Page 1-6 of the Keystone RV Company Owners Manuel. (Rev.11/27/02) On the top right hand side of the page in the section "ABOUT SERVICE CALLS" please note that the last paragraph states that " Your unit is a recreational vehicle and not intended, nor manufactured,as a permanent residence." There are other sections in the Owners Manuel such as on page 8-18, "Care & Maintenance-Interior" that also are disclaimers that may void your factory Warranty and your extended warranty.
I would suggest that you might want to refrain from using the term "Full Timers" when seeking warranty claims.

Adios Dave
 
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Old 05-21-2005, 07:08 PM   #2
sreigle
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Dave, thanks for the headsup but Keystone already knows several of us are fulltiming and they've handled warranty items without question. In fact, we're due at the Keystone Factory Service Center on Monday morning for some work and even the VP over Montana Division knows we are fulltiming.

Your point is still well-taken and your effort to bring it to attention is appreciated. I had a conversation face-to-face with another MOC member this evening and he pointed out the 'permanent residence' provision may, in fact, relate to parking the rig in one place for more or less permanent use. If one did not exercise the slides, etc., then there might be some deterioration, etc., that would not be covered by warranty. We were just thinking out loud. Neither of us really knows for sure what that statement means.

Thanks for pointing it out. There was a time when I worried about that very thing but having been through some warranty work where they knew we're fulltiming we no longer are concerned about ti.

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Old 05-21-2005, 08:47 PM   #3
Parrothead
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Since we go away for a week every now and then, we are NOT permanent residences. Sounds good, huh?
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Old 05-22-2005, 03:05 AM   #4
richfaa
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Another thought about full timing that has been rolling around in my head.In reference to some of the MAJOR issued that pop up and it seems to be with the folks that put a lot of miles on the unit.IE the shackle issue and the Landing gear weld issue. These units along with others are not rated for full time use.I always wondered exactly what that meant. You know when the design/ engineering guys design a product they work in a MTBF factor( mean time between failure) factor.That is why we change out airplane jet engines every so many hours. It would take the average rv'er a vey long time to do the miles a full timer or semi full timer does and would probably never see some of these issues/Could a factor be that we are using these rv's for something they were NOT designed to be used for..Think about it???
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Old 05-22-2005, 03:37 AM   #5
CountryGuy
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richfaa,

Not sure, Al and I are part timers, we are putting at least 6000 a year on the unit, for now. Steve R., a fulltimer, is putting on more, but he is sitting places for a very long time, 2 months in KC area, just spent almost another 2 months in Gatlingburg. Al and I used to put a LOT of miles on a unit when he still worked, we just did not get to sit for 2 months in one place.

If you go with this argument then you will need to look at units that cost a LOT more, a couple times more, than a Montana. For the Stevens, that would probably mean, we would still buy the Montana, but does that reduce us to never doing more than a couple of weeks a year, and a few weekends because the unit was only built to go so many miles before failure??

Welds break, sad but true, and our hearts go out to all the owners who have to deal with that. (We understand that pain, we had the frame bend on the prior TT and our current boat trailer. It is not a fun thing to deal with!)

Shackles and springs break and wear out. Betcha a lot of MOC members are gonna keep a really close eye on those items now. Maybe they had no idea these things require a lookeesee now and then??? Al has always considered them to be a maintenance item. Just like keeping the correct pressure in your tires and replacing them when they need to be replaced. That said, you never know when a spring will fail, you can be fine one moment and broken the next, even if you do inspect them frequently.

Believe me, with the Aluminum structure, Montana sure beats the dickens out of the prior TT which has a wooden structure! Want to have me tell you about the ROT in that one??

Just our feeling here, but you all know how we feel about Isolator (or similar products). After hauling Montana around for 1 year without Isolator and over 6 months with Isolator, well, never again, without similar product! When we watch Montana rocking and rolling and floating around back there when we hit some rough roads, the first thing that comes to our minds is "WHAT WAS GOING ON BACK THERE BEFORE??" And, we are thinking FRAME DAMAGE???

Sure makes for some interesting conversations tho?? Doesn't it?? We sure appreciate hearing everyone's different thoughts and views! For now, Al and I are gonna use Montana as hard and as long as we can, time and family commitments aside, we will be in Montana as much as we can be!

Carol
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Old 05-22-2005, 04:04 AM   #6
richfaa
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The way we have used and will use a Rv the Montana will do just fine.We have done 6000 miles a year on the Rv and for the last couple of years less than 2000. We are leaning toward the trail air suspension /pin box We think that would be a good investment. I am thinking that the average user would never see the problems that a heavy user would.Would like to hear from the various user as to when these problems surfaced. As to more expensive units...What does a Cambridge use for Shackle bushings.What is the design of the Cambridge landing gear. Worth another trip to the factory to find out.. At times we forget about the stress these units take rocking and rolling around on some of our wonderful roads..That takes a heavy toll over a period of time. The notion that we may be using these Rv's outside of their design parameters will be bad news to those that use them in that manner but encouraging news to those who never will.
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Old 05-22-2005, 04:44 AM   #7
patodonn
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Steve and I share similar experiences with Keystone re the "Full Timer" issue. They are well aware of our individual "Full Timer" situation, from this Forum, if nothing else, I was very "up front" with them, from the beginning. It never did affect the Keystone warranty issue. As a matter if fact, they extended the warranty by a month or so just to allow us to get to a suitable repair facility (D&T in Goshen) on our schedule, not their "year" clock schedule. We had discussed the axle camber problem (and a couple of others) with Customer Service a month+ prior to the expiration of the warranty. Likewise, a slide problem (which turned out to be a bad motor/hyd pump) was most correctly and courteously handled by Lippert at the 2 year point. I was recently compensated by Al-Ko for shackle replacement ....with around 16,000 miles on the rig. I discussed it with them beforehand. They said "No" - routine maintenance". I paid for it "up front", then sent them the worn parts and a letter which said, in essence, "Do whatever is fair after you check these out." I got a check a month later, with no further call or discussion on my part.

Lessons learned. (1) Be courteous and patient, know what you want them, realistically, to do for you. Allow them to work within their "rules" and capabilities. Talk to higher levels of management, if necessary. Remember, it only takes one "OK" to make up for several "No way"s.

Re Rich's observation, I think the engineers do have a MTBF concept, but, IMHO, it is a very "ball park" analysis, and they expect, and live with, wide variations. Shackles will wear out...tires will wear....sometimes, you need to check and adjust alignments. I don't think tires are balanced before they are put on the rigs...should be, but aren't. I had that done on my own, after I discovered (after 8K miles ---Duhhhh!) no balancing weights on any wheel. They all needed one or more. That kind of stuff is routine maintenance, be it a tow vehicle or a rig.

Wow...lotta words!!!! I think it doesn't matter to Keystone (or vendors) if we are "Full Timers" or not. IMHO, the quoted phrases are legal mumbo-jumbo to CTA in the event of catastrophic happenings and big legal "events".

That's the way I see the issues raised...thanks for the time,
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Old 05-22-2005, 05:11 AM   #8
sreigle
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Richfaa, I think you are correct on the MTBF issue. That's just good business sense. Identify your target audience and the expected usage. Build the unit to meet the needs with failure rates within x standard deviations or whatever they use. It would make no business sense at all to spend several times more money for a stronger part when this cheaper part will fit the specified criteria within the expected usage parameters. We who are using the Montanas as fulltime rigs fall outside that envelope, from my best guess. Safety and liability I'm sure are also factored in.

PJ, where did you have the tires balanced? I haven't had them balanced on this Montana but did on the prior one. I found out with that one (steel wheels, like this one) that a lug-centric balancer adapter is required to correctly balance these wheels, as opposed to the usual hub-centric balancer used for most auto wheels. Or so I understand.
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Old 05-22-2005, 07:01 AM   #9
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If we believe that these units are designed within a parameter of eventually failing at below full time use, then what is "average". The family that only uses their unit once a year for a long trip on Interstate roads (assuming them to be best, HA)? Or the family that uses their unit once a month and travels to the boonies on very rough roads?
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Old 05-22-2005, 09:53 AM   #10
stiles watson
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It is my unsolicited opinion that Keystone has a backdoor for the type individuals who tend to trash out everything they touch. As long as things are reasonably maintained and responsibly used I believed product failures will be covered under warranty during the warranty period regardless of frequency of use.
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Old 05-22-2005, 10:58 AM   #11
richfaa
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Stiles I am with you 100% on that observation.News, good or bad, travels word of mouth within the Rv community far more effectively that any advertising campaign. It is good business to honor the warranty. My point is that every product is built to certain standards, life of the product being one of them. That is one reason warranties are for specific periods of time..IE..36 Months or three years for my Ford Truck.
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Old 05-22-2005, 04:07 PM   #12
patodonn
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Steve: Re the balancing of the wheels, I don't recall the specifics, but it was at a pretty good independent tire shop in NC. Not sure if it was hub centeric or used the lugs, but, in either case, it had to be better than nothing. Think I'll surface the issue on the towing area of the forum....see if anyone has personal knowledge...
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Old 05-23-2005, 04:55 PM   #13
cs413
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CountryGuy - Had a TT for 10 years - first 5er. Can you give me a little info as to what the Isolator is. You sound pretty sold on the product
Thanks,
Curt
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Old 05-24-2005, 02:21 AM   #14
sreigle
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We are sitting in a Walmart parking lot cabbaging off the wifi signal from the hotel across the street. The other side of that hotel is our Montana, being worked on at the Keystone Service Center. Those folks know full well we are fulltimers. Not one word has been said about that. From what I can see they are taking good care of us. We talked with another Montana owner (gave them info about this forum) who is there for a new roof. They're also being taken care of.

By the way, I talked at length with one of the service people after they closed up last night. Seems while they do see a lot of Montanas in here because of the high volume sold, he told me they have far more Everests come in with serious problems than Montanas and the Everest is relatively new and hasn't sold near the volume. I found that interesting.
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Old 05-24-2005, 03:10 AM   #15
CountryGuy
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cs413

If you do a search on the MOC forum you will find several threads about the Isolator, you may have to go back to the main page and search the Archives.

The Isolator replaces part of your hitch, it consists of a air bag and a super duper shock (now, Carol is typing this, Al is napping, there fore, this will be a simple explanation)

The Isolator takes up the rock and roll and shock of the hard road. I won't say it is similar to Trailair or Moryryde stuff (I cannot give you any info on those, altho Al could, as well as a lot of the other guys on the forum, recently one of the fellows had a very interesting and thorough post about the technology, a lot of which was over my head techno wise), but the basic (VERY BASIC) theory is, that you keep the Montana floating over the hitch. The shock and the air bag react to road nastiness and the ride is improved. The ride in the truck is better by far and the Montana is not subjected to the physical forces it experiences without the Isolator.

I don't have the URL, but somewhere here on the forum it was given out. It is much better to look at a web page than listen to ole Carol!

As you can see from our sig line, we have the 3295, a rear kitchen model. Many here on the forum will remember my questions, time after time, about keeping stuff IN the kitchen cabinets, how to keep it from walking or moving around IN the cabinets. On the way to the Rally last fall in Bremen, Indiana, we took back roads from McHenry County Illinois (NW of Chicago) to Bremen, we went way south from McHenry, turned east on a line to Kankakee Illinois, and then wiggled back to the Bremen area. These are all 2 lane highways, no expressways. When we got to Bremen I discovered that a large bottle of Dawn dishsoap, almost full, by the way, that was sitting in that deep sink had managed to jump OUT of the sink and lay on the counter top long enough to leak a puddle of soap about 4 inches across. It then rolled or jumped or fell or walked (who knows ) off the sink, rolled over to the corner of the slide and made another puddle, this one about 8 inches across. It is a miracle that Dawn bottle did not get caught in the slide when we opened it.

Long story, here is the end: since Isolator my cabinets and contents almost NEVER move. I have spring bars between the sections of the cabinets, frequently BEFORE Isolator those bars were even knocked down by walking dishes. Now, VERY VERY VERY limited movement, and that is only on the really bad roads. Most days I open my cabinets and the glasses are still standing, even some that are stacked are standing, they nor the plates or bowls have moved AT ALL!

When we purchased, we got a satisfaction guaranteed deal, even if we had it a while (since we got in the late fall), the price was right and we did not have to put it on or adjust it, they did it for us. We got it in Goshen when we were there for some TLC at the repair facility and only learned of the Isolator because Al kept asking a LOT of questions about axles, tires, bounce, alignments of axles, tires, etc. They called in Lippert, Al asked a LOT more questions, and next thing I know, they are showing us the Isolator, and we got one!

I have said before, it is a bit harder to hookup, due to the angle of the king pin now, but those few extra minutes are well spent!!

Post is tooooooo long, sorry guys! Yep, we love the Isolator!

Carol
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Old 06-08-2005, 06:43 AM   #16
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A quick two cents on the "fulltimer" issue. This information is not presented anywhere in the sales brochure. The first time any of us every saw it was probably long after purchase when we were going through the various pamphlets for all the "stuff". Legally this is a called an "adhesion" contract and is probably not enforceable since it was not a basis for the bargain regarding the purchase.
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Old 06-08-2005, 07:14 AM   #17
sreigle
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We just had some work done at the factory service center. Those folks, from the VP down to the service techs know we are fulltimers. It was never an issue, even when we discussed the aspects of fulltiming with one of the techs who wants to fulltime when he retires. So, while I appreciate the information provided in this thread, it's nice to know Keystone does not consider it an issue. However, they also will point out that they cannot do work to bring the rig to anything other than factory specs. To whit, I asked them to see what they could do to reduce or eliminate water pipe freezing. When I pointed out ours tend to freeze at anything below 22F, they pointed out the rig is spec'd to not freeze down to 28. So nothing was done on that. I've done some things to make the colder temperatures more doable in ours, though, but the point is anything beyond factory specs is on me, not the factory. I have no argument with that.
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Old 06-08-2005, 11:41 AM   #18
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I like the idea of adding an isolator to my pin box.
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Old 06-11-2005, 05:51 PM   #19
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I understand Keystone/Montana will likely honor most warranty claims. Like some however, I was not happy with the way the "exclusion" was handled. I made no secret during purchase of my intention to "full time". Later, when I pointed the issue out to my salesman, she was apparently unaware of the issue. I emailed Keystone and was told the Cambridge was Keystone's "full time" rig, however, I looked thru the manual on a Cambridge and guess what? Same disclaimer. I think Keystone should put this disclaimer in their advertisements rather than bury it in the owners manual.
My understanding from my manual is that the primary issue is damage from moisture/condensation. This being apparently worsened by multiple persons for long periods bathing/cooking, etc. My intention is to take all due precautions to avoid moisture build-up and hope for the best.
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Old 06-13-2005, 07:26 AM   #20
sreigle
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One of the advantages you have with a Montana is attic vents to help vent moisture. You still have to be careful, even in the highest dollar rigs, about moisture but a little common sense takes care of it. We have no moisture problems and have seen condensation on one or more windows maybe twice in almost 27 months of fulltiming. Many rigs, including the sistership Everest, do not have attic vents. Most people don't think to check for things like that.

We do occasionally get condensation in cold weather on one window when the wind is just right but it's because the furnace exhaust is just outside that window.
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