RV News RVBusiness 2021 Top 10 RVs of the Year, plus 56 additional debuts and must-see units → ×
 

Go Back   Montana Owners Club - Keystone Montana 5th Wheel Forum > MOC Technical Forums > Solar, Charging Systems, Batteries and Electrical
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-24-2020, 10:19 AM   #21
Daryles
Montana Master
 
Daryles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Alton
Posts: 874
M.O.C. #24086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Ike View Post
Hi, looking at your picture isn't the 80amp in series with the 50amp? It looks like the 50amp is ahead of the 80 amp and would trip prior to the 80 seeing an overload.
Trace it. From the battery to the first breaker LEFT post. The wiring on the right post is on the other side. Now follow the short jumper to the second breaker RIGHT post. The hydraulic system wire is attached to the same post. Everything on the LEFT post of this breaker (goes to the converter) is on the other side of the breaker.
So electrically speaking, all the breakers are in parallel.
Daryles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2020, 12:36 PM   #22
TCmontana
Established Member
 
TCmontana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Herminie
Posts: 12
M.O.C. #27810
I not an electrician, however going from this thread is this something that anyone can do, you is it a diy project? When we purchased out unit brand new last season within 7 days the hydraulic pump needed replaced. That was a warranty replacement, but the dealer never mentioned anything about this breaker or that a change would work better. Thanks for all the advice.
TCmontana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2020, 12:45 PM   #23
Lazy Ike
New Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Prescott
Posts: 5
M.O.C. #26761
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryles View Post
Trace it. From the battery to the first breaker LEFT post. The wiring on the right post is on the other side. Now follow the short jumper to the second breaker RIGHT post. The hydraulic system wire is attached to the same post. Everything on the LEFT post of this breaker (goes to the converter) is on the other side of the breaker.
So electrically speaking, all the breakers are in parallel.
OK, I see it. The circuit to the pump is on the line side (right side of the breaker) and the load is on the left. You cut the new breaker into the line side. I need to do this and want to make sure I get it right. My levelers stop and start in cold weather. I also had the front legs completely bleed off last night I assume due to it getting down to 15 degrees. Have you had that issue?
Lazy Ike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2020, 04:51 PM   #24
beekeeper.va
Established Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: VIRGINIA BEACH
Posts: 20
M.O.C. #11864
You just as well put in a solid piece of wire in place of the 50 amp breaker. If you do not upgrade the wire to something like 4 AWG, the 80 amp will overload the 10 AWG wire and burn it up and maybe your trailer, too.

I can't believe there are electricians chiming in here and not questioning the use of an 80 amp CB on a circuit that is clearly not designed for 80 amps.
beekeeper.va is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2020, 06:37 PM   #25
BiggarView
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Crest Hill
Posts: 465
M.O.C. #19382
Send a message via AIM to BiggarView
Quote:
Originally Posted by beekeeper.va View Post
You just as well put in a solid piece of wire in place of the 50 amp breaker. If you do not upgrade the wire to something like 4 AWG, the 80 amp will overload the 10 AWG wire and burn it up and maybe your trailer, too.

I can't believe there are electricians chiming in here and not questioning the use of an 80 amp CB on a circuit that is clearly not designed for 80 amps.
We are talking about less than 4 feet of wire at 12volts.... 10 gauge wire should be able to handle 85 amps. longer wire less amps. 80amps should blow the CB before toasting the wire. But yeah, a larger wire would be better. Guess the question is the gauge of the existing wire. Full disclosure, I am not an electrician, don't play one on TV either.
__________________

2017 RAM 3500 Laramie CCLB Dually CTD Aisin, OEM auto level rear air-ride, B&W hitch
2020 3813MS Legacy Cobalt FBP, MORryde 8K IS & pinbox, PI EMS,DIY mods by in-house "craftsman", RV security system Mk1 Beagle Alerter
BiggarView is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2020, 07:29 PM   #26
rohrmann
Montana Master
 
rohrmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Box Elder
Posts: 3,412
M.O.C. #12947
If it was just the pump that failed, the motor and the breaker will have nothing to do with the failure. If the motor failed, even with the smaller breaker, it is likely just a defective motor, and a larger breaker would have tripped just like the smaller one would. Whether this is a DIY project to replace the breaker depends on the individual and what his/her capabilities are. I replaced our breaker, but as a retired electric lineman, this is not an issue for me.
__________________
Bob & Becky
2012 3402RL
2012 Chevy 2500HD D/A CC 4WD
rohrmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2020, 07:41 PM   #27
rohrmann
Montana Master
 
rohrmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Box Elder
Posts: 3,412
M.O.C. #12947
Quote:
Originally Posted by beekeeper.va View Post
You just as well put in a solid piece of wire in place of the 50 amp breaker. If you do not upgrade the wire to something like 4 AWG, the 80 amp will overload the 10 AWG wire and burn it up and maybe your trailer, too.

I can't believe there are electricians chiming in here and not questioning the use of an 80 amp CB on a circuit that is clearly not designed for 80 amps.

All those cables in these newer rigs are #4 AWG copper, and the upgrade to the 80 amp breaker is at the direction of Lippert who makes the system, so there is not a need to question whether the upgrade is safe. On page #2 of this link is the breaker item 'N' that Lippert recommends, and it is an 80 amp breaker. https://lci-support-doc.s3.amazonaws...cd-0002523.pdf


And this is the Lippert LIP Sheet 0058 that describes the upgrade. https://manuals.heartlandowners.org/...ippert0058.pdf
__________________
Bob & Becky
2012 3402RL
2012 Chevy 2500HD D/A CC 4WD
rohrmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2020, 07:43 PM   #28
BB_TX
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: McKinney
Posts: 5,917
M.O.C. #6433
Quote:
Originally Posted by beekeeper.va View Post
You just as well put in a solid piece of wire in place of the 50 amp breaker. If you do not upgrade the wire to something like 4 AWG, the 80 amp will overload the 10 AWG wire and burn it up and maybe your trailer, too.

I can't believe there are electricians chiming in here and not questioning the use of an 80 amp CB on a circuit that is clearly not designed for 80 amps.
Don’t know where you got 10 ga wire. But my trailer is older and the wire even then is larger, 6 if I remember correctly but would have to go to storage and look. And that wire is only about 3’ long, hanging in free air, and powered for about 1 minute.
__________________
Bill & Patricia

2007 3075RL
2012 F350 SRW CC LB FX4 6.7
BB_TX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2020, 09:57 PM   #29
beekeeper.va
Established Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: VIRGINIA BEACH
Posts: 20
M.O.C. #11864
I am an electronics tech and electrician. I install converters, inverters and wire homes. The math does not support wire size less than 6 AWG. The wire length doubles in calculation because the resistance includes the ground path. Put your length and numbers in this chart.


Yes, if there are no problems in the system, you will be ok. But if the motor shorts out or a wire gets a hole, the amperage avalanche will be instantaneous.

https://www.wirebarn.com/Wire-Calculator-_ep_41.html
beekeeper.va is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2020, 01:28 PM   #30
Lazy Ike
New Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Prescott
Posts: 5
M.O.C. #26761
Quote:
Originally Posted by beekeeper.va View Post
I am an electronics tech and electrician. I install converters, inverters and wire homes. The math does not support wire size less than 6 AWG. The wire length doubles in calculation because the resistance includes the ground path. Put your length and numbers in this chart.


Yes, if there are no problems in the system, you will be ok. But if the motor shorts out or a wire gets a hole, the amperage avalanche will be instantaneous.

https://www.wirebarn.com/Wire-Calculator-_ep_41.html
As a retired lineman myself I was planning to upgrade my conductor to match the breaker in order to ensure it would be adequate for any fault current. Nobody has weighed in on my other question about the front legs bleeding off in cold weather. I guess nobody has had this issue?
Lazy Ike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2020, 02:01 PM   #31
ChuckS
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Mountain Home
Posts: 391
M.O.C. #20949
Only 1 of 4 things will cause your front hyd LG to bleed down...
1. External leak in lines or connection fittings on either LG
2. Internal leak bypassing fluid
3. Hydac valve on LG not fully closed ... or manual override screw not tight
4. Air in system..cycle a few times to self purge
These operate in tandem so what happens to 1 happens to the other

They are also isolated from the remaining hud leveler legs
ChuckS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2020, 08:57 PM   #32
rohrmann
Montana Master
 
rohrmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Box Elder
Posts: 3,412
M.O.C. #12947
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Ike View Post
As a retired lineman myself I was planning to upgrade my conductor to match the breaker in order to ensure it would be adequate for any fault current. Nobody has weighed in on my other question about the front legs bleeding off in cold weather. I guess nobody has had this issue?

If you have a newer rig, you likely already have #4 STR copper wires from your batteries to the pump motor and to the inside electric panel and won't need to change any wires. Ours is a 2012, and the wires were already #4. The only thing I had to do was open the holes in the ring connectors to fit the larger posts on the new breaker.
__________________
Bob & Becky
2012 3402RL
2012 Chevy 2500HD D/A CC 4WD
rohrmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2020, 09:52 PM   #33
Falcon
Established Member
 
Falcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Alamogordo
Posts: 44
M.O.C. #26505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryles View Post
Buy the self resetting breaker or you will be ducking inside the compartment to reset it every time it pops.
https://www.elecdirect.com/fuse-hold...-1-12-30-volts
Why would a new 80A replacement pop all the time?
__________________
Pat & Amy (Libby the dog)
2019 Montana 3791RD, 20th Anniversary Edition
2006 GMC 2500HD Duramax Crew Cab
Airbags, Andersen Hitch
Falcon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2020, 10:23 PM   #34
Madmax07
Established Member
 
Madmax07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Humboldt
Posts: 22
M.O.C. #27605
Would there happen to be a video out there showing how the swap is done?
__________________
Cal & Kim
Jake (Miniature Schnauzer)
2013 3582RL
2012 Ram 3500 Laramie
Madmax07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2020, 08:25 AM   #35
Lazy Ike
New Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Prescott
Posts: 5
M.O.C. #26761
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Only 1 of 4 things will cause your front hyd LG to bleed down...
1. External leak in lines or connection fittings on either LG
2. Internal leak bypassing fluid
3. Hydac valve on LG not fully closed ... or manual override screw not tight
4. Air in system..cycle a few times to self purge
These operate in tandem so what happens to 1 happens to the other

They are also isolated from the remaining hud leveler legs
Hi Chuck, I found a leak in my kitchen slide hydraulic cylinder and am thinking air could be getting into the system there. I am reaching out to Keystone and to Lippert this morning to see what they say. My rig is a 2019 3791RD so it is not that old and I am hoping they stand behind this.
Lazy Ike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2020, 09:06 AM   #36
jeffba
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bastrop
Posts: 2,742
M.O.C. #20753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Ike View Post
Hi Chuck, I found a leak in my kitchen slide hydraulic cylinder and am thinking air could be getting into the system there. I am reaching out to Keystone and to Lippert this morning to see what they say. My rig is a 2019 3791RD so it is not that old and I am hoping they stand behind this.
You may need to call Lippert if they do not. Their warranty may be longer
__________________
2019 20th Anniversary Edition 3701LK
B&W 20K for Ford OEM Puck
2018 Ford F-350 Lariat CCLB PSD DRW
Poke super lignum unum et diem
jeffba is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2020, 04:15 PM   #37
RMcNeal
Montana Master
 
RMcNeal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 770
M.O.C. #25165
I also have a 2019 3791RD and my dining room slide ram is leaking slightly. I'd be interested if Lippert covers it. I do have a 6 yr extended warranty if not.
__________________
Robert & Diana McNeal
2019 Montana Legacy 3791RD 20th Anniversary Edition
2014 F350 4x4 6.7L SRW
RMcNeal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2021, 09:14 AM   #38
Lazy Ike
New Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Prescott
Posts: 5
M.O.C. #26761
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMcNeal View Post
I also have a 2019 3791RD and my dining room slide ram is leaking slightly. I'd be interested if Lippert covers it. I do have a 6 yr extended warranty if not.
Hi Robert, so to follow up, Lippert did stand behind this and sent me a new hydraulic cylinder two days ago at no cost to me, which I installed myself versus using my extended warranty. I chose to go this route because of the hassle and time in getting this issue diagnosed (the problem was obvious) and repaired using the warranty. It is a relatively easy repair short of the coroplast removal which is kind of a hassle. The new cylinder is working perfect and my front jacks have stayed up the last two nights. In my previous post I noted that my front stabilizer jacks would bleed off when the temperature got below freezing. It must have been due to air in the system from the leaking cylinder. My leak started slow and got worse very quickly. The temps over the last couple of nights have been above freezing but that is going to change in the next few days with a winter storm moving through. I will know for sure about the stabilizer jacks in the next couple of nights.
Lazy Ike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2021, 10:10 AM   #39
RMcNeal
Montana Master
 
RMcNeal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 770
M.O.C. #25165
Thanks, Lazy Ike. I've been trying to get my rig in for another issue, but the service center is out to March on appointments. I've got a crack in the side wall below the rear DS slide.
I have also noticed I've got a leak at the valve manifold in the battery compartment again. They replaced the entire manifold under warranty less than a year ago. The leak is small, but I'm tired of mopping up hydraulic fluid every time I go into the battery compartment. I think I'll give Lippert a call and see if they will just send me the valve replacement. Looks like a simple repair.
__________________
Robert & Diana McNeal
2019 Montana Legacy 3791RD 20th Anniversary Edition
2014 F350 4x4 6.7L SRW
RMcNeal is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
circuit breaker, hydraulic system

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Montana RV, Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×