D3500 for 3400?

[CamillaMichael]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

My truck weighed 8650 out the door and 9215 ready to tow. Do you know what those numbers are on your truck Michael... I can not see a 2011 F-350 SRW under build your own truck, CC/LB/4X4 that will come in under spec. The pin weight is always light??? We tried our best to go SWD 2011 with no luck... What amd I missing.... As I have said many times we are not fans of the dually but the numbers said we had to have one.

Rich, our truck is a 2010 (I believe the 2011 has increased power, do not know about capacity). When loaded with two people passengers, one cocker, two five-gal diesel cans, assorted camp things, and full tank (38 gal) of fuel, we weighed in at 8140... when connected to our 3400, loaded for travel (we do not carry water), the front and rear truck axles weighed in at 5060 and 5980, repectively (giving a pin weight of 2780), and the 3400's axles weighed in at 11,140 for 460lbs under the truck's gvwr of 11500, 1580lbs under the 3400's gvwr, and 820lbs under the trucks gcwr. As I have said, if we need more capacity, we either have to leave something behind (the cocker is not an option) or get a truck with more capacity...we focus on traveling light, so our combination works fine for us (and, as you can see, is within specs). I suspect you have looked at being able to exploit the full carrying capacity of your fifth wheel and needed the larger truck...don't think you missed anything. Michael

[TLightning]

quote:Originally posted by CamillaMichael

Just for grins, I looked at one of the manufacturer's websites (Chevy) to pick out some capacities on DRW pickups. In this case, the 3500 Duramax. Seems this vehicle has a GVWR 100 lbs less than my SRW pickup...how can that be so? The site also states this truck has a "Max Trailer" capacity of 13,000 lbs...again, a lot less than my SRW.

Don't want to beat a dead horse, but, as stated before, Fords are very very heavy. Find the weight of your truck by subtracting the payload capacity as noted on the Tire and Loading Information sticker from the GVWR. Also the figure of 13k is totally incorrect, my 07 has a towing capacity of 16,400. AND, we all know the TRUE towing capacity is the GCWR minus the weight of the TV when ready to tow.

Here's a good weight example:

Richfaa DRW CC PSD: GVWR, 13,000, cargo capacity 4,268 (off the sticker). Therefore truck weight is 13,000 - 4,268 = 8,732.

My DRW CC D/A: GVWR, 11,400, cargo capacity 4,257 (off the sticker). Therefore truck weight is 11,400 - 4,257 = 7,143.

[Carl n Susan]

quote:Originally posted by Tom_Holsinger


Shipping weight of 12,165 pounds, cargo weight of 3,380 pounds and a hitch weight of 2,045 pounds. That totals 15,545 pounds for the RV and 17,590 pounds for the RV + hitch.

The Montana's GVRW of 15,545 *INCLUDES* the hitch weight (typically 20-25% of the gross weight). The 7,000 Lbs. axles and supplied tires would be exceeded using the numbers quoted.

[CamillaMichael]

quote:Originally posted by TLightning

Don't want to beat a dead horse, but, as stated before, Fords are very very heavy. Find the weight of your truck by subtracting the payload capacity as noted on the Tire and Loading Information sticker from the GVWR. Also the figure of 13k is totally incorrect, my 07 has a towing capacity of 16,400. AND, we all know the TRUE towing capacity is the GCWR minus the weight of the TV when ready to tow.

Here's a good weight example:

Richfaa DRW CC PSD: GVWR, 13,000, cargo capacity 4,268 (off the sticker). Therefore truck weight is 13,000 - 4,268 = 8,732.

My DRW CC D/A: GVWR, 11,400, cargo capacity 4,257 (off the sticker). Therefore truck weight is 11,400 - 4,257 = 7,143.

EXACTLY Tom! Everyone has a different number, including the manufacturers. The reason is every truck has many different configurations and how the owner loads it is also a factor...like adding a fuel transfer tank. If you look at Chevy's website for 07's, you will see a trailer number even lower than the 13,000 I quoted! So, who is right? You or the manufacturer? Probably both (in the case of the manufacturer's stated number below 13,000, it was probably intended to state the weight for conventional trailers, not fifth wheels)! The reason is without looking at what each figure includes (and fully understand what the figure is intended to communicate), you cannot be difinitive on what the truck is capable of towing. As I have repeatedly stated, every Chevy, Ford, or Dodge truck is different, no matter what the designation (F350, 3500, etc). You HAVE to look at the individual truck's configuration and weigh any combo you intend to use...then you can say with a degree of confidence what your truck can or cannot handle (in terms of actual capacity).

[CamillaMichael]

quote:Originally posted by Tom_Holsinger

Here is one way to compare TV capacity with RV weight.

Tow vehicle: 2010 Dodge RAM 3500, 6.7 liter Cummins diesel and 4.10 axle ratio, Laramie, long bed crew cab, DRW. Curb weight of 7,471 pounds and GVW of 11,500 per http://autos.aol.com/cars-Dodge-Ram+3500-2010/specs/

Make that an actual vehicle weight of at least 8,200 pounds with 5th wheel hitch, bed saver, passengers and some luggage.

The Dodge Heavy Duty specifications found by clicking on the bottom right corner button at the Dodge RAM page here - http://www.dodge.com/en/2010/ram_2500_3500/ - states the following maximum trailer weights, and Gross Combined Weight (GCWR) for this model as:

24,000 pounds GCRW (25,400 late availability with a special tow package), and maximum trailer weight of 18,050 pounds.

Keystone’s Montana page gives the following specifications for a Montana 3615RE:

Shipping weight of 12,165 pounds, cargo weight of 3,380 pounds and a hitch weight of 2,045 pounds. That totals 15,545 pounds for the RV and 17,590 pounds for the RV + hitch.

A long-bed Dodge 3500 diesel dually has a maximum trailer weight of 18,050 pounds, so it looks as though the maximum Montana 3615RE trailer weight is within its limits, particularly as some of the weight will be carried by the truck.

BUT, the combined gross vehicle weight of the Dodge 3500 as loaded, plus the Montana 3615RE and its hitch is 8,200 + 15,545 + 2,025 = 25,700 pounds, which exceeds the Dodge’s 24,000 GCRW , and even its late availability rating of 25,400.

This is why I stated earlier that even one ton diesel dually pickup trucks are at best marginally capable of towing the larger Montanas. Contrast this, though, with the Montana High Country 343RL whose gross weight is 12,500 pounds with a 1,740 pound hitch. That totals 14,240 pounds so it plus the same loaded Dodge diesel dually total 22,440 pounds, which is almost 10% under the latter’s 24,000 pound GCRW.

I meant it in earlier urging Keystone to give a to the marketing guys responsible for the High Country models. Those are long-term winners.

Tom, I was just reviewing some of your numbers...while I am not 100% sure, I do believe the "shipping" weight includes the pin weight. If it didn't the 3615 example you presented would be way over in gvwr for the fifth wheel...our 3400RL loaded for travel actually weighed in at 11,140 with pin weight of 2780 for a total weight of 13,920...1,580 lbs under gvwr. Michael

[richfaa]

"Richfaa DRW CC PSD: GVWR, 13,000, cargo capacity 4,268 (off the sticker). Therefore truck weight is 13,000 - 4,268 = 8,732"....... that number was within a few lbs of being correct as we went from the dealers lot to a scale for actual weight. The shipping invoice said shipped with 12 gals of fuel and the dealer gave us a full tank. That was most of the difference. The truck weighed 9215 lbs ready to tow.Actual CC is therefore 3785 lbs// actual pin weigh 2915... we are well within CC.

Correct..then hitch weight is not included in the GVWR of the camper. It Is included in the Cargo capacity of the Truck.

I agree with the high country models.... a winner..

[Tom_Holsinger]

Carl and Rich,

I'm with Rich on this. The only time the @ one ton hitch for a fifth wheel would be attached to the RV while it is moving is when it is being towed, at which point the hitch would be attached to the hitch point in the truck, and its weight would be borne by the truck's rear axle, not the 5th wheel's axles. Attaching the hitch to a static 5th wheel means little as that is a static load. You can get the same static load into a 5th wheel with a real crowded party, but there simply is no danger then of overloading the axles.

[exav8tr]

Remember this, The hitch weight that Keystone provides is a Pie in the Sky number. It is for an empty trailer. They give you that number so you can determine which truck to buy. It is not part of the trailer weight in any form or fashion. The actual weight of the pin itself is included in the total trailer weight, but not used in any calculation except payload for your truck. I know of no one that actually has a lower pin weight than that stated by Keystone. Most are always higher once the rig is loaded. There is only one perfect way to do this and that is to load up the truck the way you carry, with DW, Dog, full fuel, hitch in back, the firewood you carry, tools you carry, THEN weigh that sucker. Subtract that from the GCWR of the truck and what's left is the maximum trailer weight the manufacturer wants you to haul. Now, how many of us actually do that???? Maybe after the fact, or if we already own a truck equipped to haul a fifth wheel.

(Quote)You can get the same static load into a 5th wheel with a real crowded party, but there simply is no danger then of overloading the axles.(Quote) This is not true, statically you are close to correct, but as we drive our nations smooth highways, everytime we hit an errant bump which causes the trailer to lift from the truck via the hitch, you are loading the axles with the total, and sometimes, more weight, this is where the problem comes into play of overloading a trailer. Standing still these forces do not change, however, in motion they are constantly changing and this is why it is important to keep speeds below what is stated on your tires, as you increase speed and hit these bumps that extra force is transferred to the axles, and ultimately, the tires. The resultant blowout can cause serious damage.

[Tom_Holsinger]

Phil, you missed my point. A static load means the RV isn't moving. While 10 people can fit in a Montana for a party if they are real friendly, they're not gonna dance much. Heartland advertises their Sundance XLT with a photo of a pickup on the roof of one. http://heartlandrvs.com/product.html...a+Lightweights

The Sundance XLT brochure says they have dry weights of about 7000 pounds and GVWR's of about 11,000, so even an empty pickup on the roof creates a total axle load of at least 13,000 pounds, which is almost certainly over its rated axle loading.

This means that attaching the hitch to a Montana that is just sitting there won't overload it.

And there is a way to evaluate the towing capacity of a truck you don't own with a given RV - the way I showed how to do it. Just Google the truck model and the complete term, "curb weight". I did an advanced Google search for the individual words "2010 Dodge RAM 3500" plus the complete phrase "curb weight". That produced the AOL link I posted. And add 800 - 1000 pounds to the truck's curb weight for the hitch mechanism in the truck bed, a bed saver, passengers, tools and some luggage with the "bail-out" kit (clothes, prescription medications, etc., for emergency use if an accident totals the RV).

Adding 800 - 1000 pounds to the web-accessible curb weight of a given tow vehicle will give you a pretty good idea of its actual weight for towing. Subtract that from the manufacturer's rating for the gross combined vehicle weight of the truck and towed RV. That is 24,000 pounds for a 2010 Dodge RAM 3500 diesel dually with an extended cab long bed and the best axle ratio. And, as the AOL site says that truck has a curb weight of 7,471 pounds, it has a loaded weight of about 8,200 - 8,500 pounds.

This means the manufacturer rates it as capable of safely towing an RV whose weight, with hitch, is about 15,500 pounds.

The actual weights of Montanas go up fast with extra insulation, a second air conditioner, a washer/drier, water in the tanks, etc. It is wise to calculate the necessary tow vehicle based it having a weight, as towed, on Keystone's figures for its shipping weight + MAXIMUM cargo + hitch.

[richfaa]

As is being pointd out in this thread the "weight" issue is a complex issue with many factors to understand and consider. There are so many variables. Most of us do not know these things till is is to late.

That is why the term " it will pull it just fine" makes the hair, if we have any, stand on end with some of us who sort of do understand. I come from a truck owner/operator family and the weight issue as well as weight and load distribution came to me at a early age. Helen and I also sold RV's for several years and we learned even more as buyers asked us questions.

RVSEF (the weight folks) gave a good seminar at the last Fall rally but not enough folks heard it.

[8.1al]

Not all of the weight of that trailer with the truck on top is on the axles, part of it is on the front jacks

[CamillaMichael]

quote:Originally posted by Tom_Holsinger

Phil, you missed my point. A static load means the RV isn't moving. While 10 people can fit in a Montana for a party if they are real friendly, they're not gonna dance much. Heartland advertises their Sundance XLT with a photo of a pickup on the roof of one. http://heartlandrvs.com/product.html...a+Lightweights

The Sundance XLT brochure says they have dry weights of about 7000 pounds and GVWR's of about 11,000, so even an empty pickup on the roof creates a total axle load of at least 13,000 pounds, which is almost certainly over its rated axle loading.

This means that attaching the hitch to a Montana that is just sitting there won't overload it.

And there is a way to evaluate the towing capacity of a truck you don't own with a given RV - the way I showed how to do it. Just Google the truck model and the complete term, "curb weight". I did an advanced Google search for the individual words "2010 Dodge RAM 3500" plus the complete phrase "curb weight". That produced the AOL link I posted. And add 800 - 1000 pounds to the truck's curb weight for the hitch mechanism in the truck bed, a bed saver, passengers, tools and some luggage with the "bail-out" kit (clothes, prescription medications, etc., for emergency use if an accident totals the RV).

Adding 800 - 1000 pounds to the web-accessible curb weight of a given tow vehicle will give you a pretty good idea of its actual weight for towing. Subtract that from the manufacturer's rating for the gross combined vehicle weight of the truck and towed RV. That is 24,000 pounds for a 2010 Dodge RAM 3500 diesel dually with an extended cab long bed and the best axle ratio. And, as the AOL site says that truck has a curb weight of 7,471 pounds, it has a loaded weight of about 8,200 - 8,500 pounds.

This means the manufacturer rates it as capable of safely towing an RV whose weight, with hitch, is about 15,500 pounds.

The actual weights of Montanas go up fast with extra insulation, a second air conditioner, a washer/drier, water in the tanks, etc. It is wise to calculate the necessary tow vehicle based it having a weight, as towed, on Keystone's figures for its shipping weight + MAXIMUM cargo + hitch.

The internet is really a great place to gather information. But getting true figures from any web site is often a crap shoot. For example, the Keystone Montana site will tell you the pin weight for the 3400rl is 2140lbs...our 3400 is far from over loaded and has a pin weight closer to 2800lbs. For most TVs, that nearly 700lbs could be a make or break situation. As this thread has shown in great detail, there is no substitute for personal research, and when possible, to do your own weighing.

[richfaa]

That is miss leading. The pin weight on the Keystone web site for our 06 3400 is based on the shipping' weight or dry weight of the camper, 2330lbs whereas the actual pin weight ready to travel is 2915lbs. There should be a qualifying statement on these web sites for those who are unaware. Those are marketing numbers and the real world is much different IE: My favorite... "the Arctic package"

This has been a really informative thread.

[Tom_Holsinger]

Camilla & Mike,

I agree there is no substitute for actual weighing of actual vehicles. My point was that it is possible to do a ball-park estimate from web figures, and knowing how to do it is particularly useful for first-time buyers. If the ball-park estimate doesn't provide at least a 10% safety margin between TV capacity and tow weights, first-time buyers should definitely consider getting a larger truck or a smaller RV, because of the tendency to load more and more into the RV for a while after purchase.

And knowledge of how actual weights work is a great incentive for existing owners to consider whether they really need to carry all that with them.

[Carl n Susan]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Correct..then hitch weight is not included in the GVWR of the camper....

It is even more difficult to reach agreement on weight when we don't agree on the basic concepts. The definition of GVWR by the RVIA is:
GVWR:
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating

The MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE WEIGHT of the fully loaded vehicle, including liquids, passengers, cargo, and the tongue weight of any towed vehicle.

Source: http://www.rvsafety.com/custompage27...pg=defintiions

The tongue weight (pin weight for fifth wheels) is included in the RV's GVWR and is not additive as stated by others.

I do agree the tongue weight (aka pin weight) is carried by the tow vehicle when attached and counts towards the vehicles GVWR.

[richfaa]

The MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE WEIGHT of the fully loaded vehicle, including liquids, passengers, cargo, and the tongue weight of any towed vehicle. "

That referes to the Tow "vehicle" not the camper. The GVWR of the camper is the Stated dry weight plus the cargo capacity.

[Art-n-Marge]

FYI - A trailer GVWR/GVW is also known as GTWR/GTW (Gross Trailer Weight Rating/Gross Trailer Weight). This helps differentiate references to a trailer's weight versus the weight of the tow vehicle. This also simplifies the reference so one does not have to say "the GVWR of the tow vehicle" or "the GVWR of the trailer".

The CGVWR of the tow vehicle (I don't know of a trailer that has one) means that the GVW and the GTW must be under (or at?) this rating, NOT the combination of the GVWR and the GTWR. This is important to know because as others have explained if the GTW becomes heavier, then oftentimes the GVW must be lightened to compensate or vice versa.

We must also keep in mind that NONE of the weight ratings should be exceeded at any point of the load.

I do not fault the trailer manufacturers for documenting the pin weight as is. When you think about it, they also don't really document the GTWR either. You calculate the GTWR by adding the shipping weight and the cargo weight. They document the empty pin weight, then WE must calculate the loaded pin weight as 18%-25% of the GTWR. Before even buying a trailer, it's amazing how many vehicle owners don't know how this works. After all, it's been documented in every automotive manual for every car I've purchased. The trailer is no different except that it is easy to not know how much you are putting in a trailer since it holds so much.

Like others keep mentioning. Only a proper scale will tell you what you've got. The documentation only gives you an idea what you can do. The real world is the customer's responsibility.

The only thing I do know, is if you ask the salesman how the weights work (I test them all the time), they will be WRONG! They are there to make the sale, not save your rump. This is a generalization because I am sure every salesman will say they worry about their customer's safety, but they are ignorant on how to do this, so who are they saving?

Be safe (and compliant) all!

[CamillaMichael]

quote:Originally posted by Tom_Holsinger

Camilla & Mike,

I agree there is no substitute for actual weighing of actual vehicles. My point was that it is possible to do a ball-park estimate from web figures, and knowing how to do it is particularly useful for first-time buyers. If the ball-park estimate doesn't provide at least a 10% safety margin between TV capacity and tow weights, first-time buyers should definitely consider getting a larger truck or a smaller RV, because of the tendency to load more and more into the RV for a while after purchase.

And knowledge of how actual weights work is a great incentive for existing owners to consider whether they really need to carry all that with them.

While my comment does not sound like it, I do agree with you that you can do a pretty good estimate with the numbers you are able to find...from the dealer, web site, or other places. My comment was aimed more at myself! While we were shopping, and finally narrowed down the search to the 3400, I took the given weights and went truck shopping. While I wanted a particular truck, it's payload capacity was too close to the Montana's pin weight. So, I thought I would go up a level on the truck, just to be safe. As it turns out, had I not shot for an additional margin of safety, I would have had a truck below the required capacity...not a good thing!

[8.1al]

I don't know about Art's trailer but the GTWR or whatever else you want to call it is well documented. It's spelled right out on the sticker on the side of the trailer but the pin weight is another matter because it'll vary depending on what each individual has stuffed up front. It would be nice if the manufacturers could somehow let the novice know what they might be looking at in the way of loaded pin weight

[richfaa]

You are so right Charlie. When we got weighed at the fall rally by RVSEF our pin weight was 22% of the GVWR. I did not like that number and we have been on a weight reduction program. Example//took 150lbs of "stuff" out of the front compartment andf a bunch of stuff out of the side compartments. Have not been weighed since but we are trying for a pin weigh of 20% or a bit less.