12V Lithium vs 6V deep cycle batteries

[bcrvman]

Originally Posted by nsdtr3

Hello RV'ers,

We have a Montana 40ft 5th wheel with 4 - 6volt Trojan batteries and they lose charge and we have to jump start the batteries to turn on our generator to recharge the batteries. We do have solar panels but the RV is stored under a a roof where no direct sun hits the solar panels, just ambient light from the rear and front of the RV. Wondered about changing to Lithium batteries like the RELiON 12V 300Ah Lithium Battery
Item No. 122875
sale price $3,429.99 was $3,488.95

The 6 volt batteries say 225 AH @ 20 hr - 185 AH @ 5 hr.

Which set up gives me the most energy and will the Lithium lose charge as quick as the deep cycle batteries?

Thanks for the help and advice,
John & Marie

If you do not have a battery monitor like a Victron or Bogart get one. I bought mine a year before the RV. Lithium loses charge MUCH slower but you will also need to make sure your converter can charge it properly. Usually the AGM charge formula is good enough.

Lead acid can onky be used down to 50%, LiFePO4 down to 80 or 90

[firestation12]

carlrx7, I'm wondering if it's a good idea to cover those lithium batteries. The BMS modules on the battery tops have cooling fans that need to circulate air when under load.

[RVDH]

Originally Posted by Speck56

New technology in lithium batteries, Battleborn, has made them the safest batteries out there. 10 year life, rapid recharge, ability to discharge to 0% with no damage. Expensive, yes, but way too many advantages to ignore. Different technology than cell phone or hoverboard lithium. Will never do lead acid, heavy high maintenance batteries again.

2020 3761FL
2020 GMC DENALI 4WD 3500 DRW

You can do what you want but I'm involved with an insurance claim on so called "safe" Lithium Iron Phosphate Magnesium batteries that thermally ran away without being connected to anything and during my research I found that it wasn't an isolated case! Many Tesla's have had car fires although you don't hear much about it and that is the same technology.

[bcrvman]

Originally Posted by RVDH

You can do what you want but I'm involved with an insurance claim on so called "safe" Lithium Iron Phosphate Magnesium batteries that thermally ran away without being connected to anything and during my research I found that it wasn't an isolated case! Many Tesla's have had car fires although you don't hear much about it and that is the same technology.

Tesla's do NOT use LiFePO4 chemistry.

[RVDH]

Originally Posted by bcrvman

Tesla's do NOT use LiFePO4 chemistry.

That's not the point! they all have had this type of problem, they need to be monitored, special chargers, and if you do go that route make sure you buy the ones that are housed with an aluminum liner inside the battery so your RV doesn't burn up with the batteries.

[bcrvman]

Originally Posted by RVDH

That's not the point! they all have had this type of problem, they need to be monitored, special chargers, and if you do go that route make sure you buy the ones that are housed with an aluminum liner inside the battery so your RV doesn't burn up with the batteries.

Actually it's exactly the point, the chemistry determines the susceptibility to thermal runaway. Not only is LiFePO4 far less susceptible but it has embedded electronics to monitor the battery and shut it down if overheating occurs due to the end user abusing the battery.
BTW, ever seen the result of a Lead Acid battery fire?
I have not heard of a single case of a Battle Born battery fire.

[kowbra]

Originally Posted by RVDH

That's not the point! they all have had this type of problem, they need to be monitored, special chargers, and if you do go that route make sure you buy the ones that are housed with an aluminum liner inside the battery so your RV doesn't burn up with the batteries.

Actually I think it is exactly the point. When posters on a forum casually throw out statements as if they are "facts" when they contain pieces of misinformation, it calls into question all of their statements. And, when those statements contain claims of terrible things happening that are not verified, it gets harder to accept the statements as valid.

It seems you've made up your mind and that's your choice. But I am not at all convinced of your reasons for doing so, and I have made a different choice.


Brad

[bcrvman]

Originally Posted by RVDH

That's not the point! they all have had this type of problem, they need to be monitored, special chargers, and if you do go that route make sure you buy the ones that are housed with an aluminum liner inside the battery so your RV doesn't burn up with the batteries.

Each battery type needs a 'special ' charger, standard flooded, GEL, AGM. The difference is a mismatched Lithium will just be less efficient while a Lead Acid might outgas and explode.
Conventional Lead Acid batteries require constant monitoring and maintenance. Lithium's are almost bullet proof. I could say don't charge below a certain temperature but the battery has a built in temperature sensor and disconnects itself so I don't need to do anything.

[RVDH]

Originally Posted by bcrvman

Actually it's exactly the point, the chemistry determines the susceptibility to thermal runaway. Not only is LiFePO4 far less susceptible but it has embedded electronics to monitor the battery and shut it down if overheating occurs due to the end user abusing the battery.
BTW, ever seen the result of a Lead Acid battery fire?
I have not heard of a single case of a Battle Born battery fire.

That's exactly the batteries that I'm involved with right now and they thermally ran away! This isn't the first case either, so yes it is the point, I do understand the chemistry and have done a lot of research on it and they are not as bullet proof as you say.

[bcrvman]

Originally Posted by RVDH

That's exactly the batteries that I'm involved with right now and they thermally ran away! This isn't the first case either, so yes it is the point, I do understand the chemistry and have done a lot of research on it and they are not as bullet proof as you say.

I did a lot of research before buying mine and see no issue. I know LOTS of people with the same battery and no issue. I can't speak for some of the chinese cheap batteries, but the Japanese/American are of the highest quality.

You are either grossly misinformed or have a financial interest. Are you a lawyer, plaintiff?

[Daryles]

It will be interesting to see the new battery technology come to market and drive down the price.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael...h=33998d4e6d28

[firestation12]

Originally Posted by RVDH

That's exactly the batteries that I'm involved with right now and they thermally ran away! This isn't the first case either, so yes it is the point, I do understand the chemistry and have done a lot of research on it and they are not as bullet proof as you say.

Originally Posted by bcrvman

I did a lot of research before buying mine and see no issue. I know LOTS of people with the same battery and no issue. I can't speak for some of the chinese cheap batteries, but the Japanese/American are of the highest quality.

You are either grossly misinformed or have a financial interest. Are you a lawyer, plaintiff?

Originally Posted by Daryles

It will be interesting to see the new battery technology come to market and drive down the price.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael...h=33998d4e6d28

Interesting back and forth discussion here. RVDH stated that the batteries (plural) weren't hooked up to anything and just thermally ran away. Interesting scenario of a battery failure. I'm not clear (and would like to know) what exact brand, amp hour, voltage arrangement (series 12 or 24 volt or parallel 12 volt, how many batteries were in the bank) "thermally ran away" as described by RVDH. For sake of discussion and common understanding, it also might be helpful to see a picture of the failed battery(s). Was a BMS present to cut off under/over voltage, was there an in line fuse on the positive side, did a metal object accidentally come into contact with conductors, etc. etc.? Bcrvman is correct that Tesla battery technology is different than LiFePo4 battery. Each lithium variation has a different history of failures. It would be misleading to the readers on this forum imply that all lithium battery technologies are prone to the same problems. RVDH stated, "make sure you buy the ones that are housed with an aluminum liner inside the battery so your RV doesn't burn up with the batteries. To my knowledge, all LiFePo4 batteries I've seen or purchased, were manufactured in an aluminum enclosure. There was some discussion about where present and future lithium battery technology is coming from. Last Sunday morning, Will Prowse posted an 8 minute rant about this subject, that I found interesting, which I'll include a link here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HryiadpkssQ

Apparently according to Prowse, China is the leader in Lithium technology. If I understand Prowse correctly, Battleborn and other manufacturers are importing Chinese batteries and putting them in proprietary enclosures. If true, a case could be made to create a scratch built DIY LiFePo4battery system at a fraction of the cost. Appreciate everyone's comments.

[AJ&S]

Hi John and Mary,

I read responses from many,, most correct.

I just converted to Lithium doing following:

Battleborn batteries,, just 300 Ah for now to test system. Will double later,, maybe!
New Lithium charging module from Progressive Dynamics
Victron monitoring system with Bluetooth to connect to my iPad
Renogy solar panels and MPPT Controller with Bluetooth

If you do math, Lithium is the way to go for weight savings and long term cost savings (must keep your RV 5 plus years or move it to your new rig).

For emergencies I do carry Honda 2200 generator.

We love staying in wineries etc with occasional of grid for few days.

So far,, system seems to work well to our needs.

[kowbra]

Here is an interesting and thorough test of batteries

https://mortonsonthemove.com/best-rv...-test-results/



Summary? Based on the testing, it is hard to recommend flooded batteries. They not only perform far worse in all testing categories, but they are also far more expensive over the life of the battery.

IOW, Lithium not only vastly outperforms, but is also much cheaper than flooded over the long term, so is the preferred choice.



Brad

[mlh]

I just ordered a lithium battery for my camper.
Lynwood

[hemiallen]

Good deal Lynwood

I just ordered 300Ah of BB lithiums, finally decided to go non heated and will build an unsulated box for the few days we get below freezing in the Am.

Now I just need to stay healthy and use them for 6 years to break even, lol. The ability to now be topping off my lead-acid batteries with distilled H20 every 3 months for that period will be worth the upgrade by itself. I have enough maintenance on the old cars and vineyard to keep me busy.

Allen

[rames14]

If someone asked now that I have experienced lithium, it would be one of the first upgrades I would recommend if you Boondock. Besides the ability to take them to almost zero charge, maintain voltage and weight savings, the reduction in recharge time is great. With many National parks only allowing 4 hours per day of generator use, how much charge can you get on lead acid batteries.

[mlh]

I just received my lithium battery a Lion Energy 105 ah battery. About half of retailers sell it for $999 and half for $899. I got it delivered for $806. I replaced 2 Trogans that we’re going bad and weighed 70 pounds each with 1, 23 pound battery that I can easily move from the fiver to the motor home. We will see how it preforms.
Lynwood

[GreG L.]

Just helped the next door neighbor replace his 2-6V's with one 200Ah LiFePO4 from Amazon, $399.00. Not my first choice but has all the bells and whistles, we will see.

[nsdtr3]

Our 4 Lithium Battle Born batteries get installed Monday along with the battery monitor gauge. We leave for a 3 week trip to Montana this September. We'll report how they worked after our trip.