trucks HP vs Tork

[Dam Worker]

Originally Posted by 432bartman

I don't know where you're getting your information, but the new Ford 6.7 diesel makes 475 hp at 2600 RPM, and all it's available torque at 1600 RPM. The Ecoboost has no where near the torque of a diesel. All diesels make their torque low in the RPM spectrum.

I am pretty sure that comparison would be on the 1/2 F150. The Diesel engine used in it verses the two Ecoboost gas engines that Lynwood talked about. I don’t think he was comparing the Ecoboost to the 6.7 Diesel for actual HP and Torque although in comparison of displacement it is pretty close.

Tom

[mlh]

After driving a Ecoboost for 6 years and Diesel engines for 20 years if Ford would build a 6 liter Ecoboost I would never buy another Diesel. It could easily produce 900 Torque with the HP at least 600. It would use more fuel but you can buy a lot of gasoline for the cost of a Diesel engine. And you would have all the maintenance of the diesel.
Lynwood.

[kowbra]

Originally Posted by mlh

The point I was making is, per liter the Ecoboost engine has about the same torque as Ford’s diesel. The 3.5 Ecoboost has 148.5 Torque per liter while the Diesel has 156.7 torque per liter. The diesel makes its peak torque at 1600 while the Ecoboost makes peak torque at 2500 and has 90% from 2000 to 5000. That is according to Ford.
Lynwood

To be clear, I'm sure not dismissing what you are saying. The Ecoboost has been a great success for Ford, for sure. AFAI recall, they do some very interesting things with lowering the compression and raising turbo boost while managing with sophisticated electronics.
I've not driven any of the "small diesels" in the Big 3 half tons, and I've only driven Ecoboost half tons empty. It would be interesting to compare the "seat of the pants" if pulling both to rated loads with those half tons. (1600 vs 2500 rpm is meaningful but how does it translate??)

Either way, that hasn't translated into the heavy duty pickups, which is what all of the members here will be driving. In the HD class, the competition is between NA gas engines vs turbo diesels. Between the inherent strengths of a diesel engine for pulling and the addition of the turbo, it's not a fair fight for the gas engines

Brad

[DebNJim B]

Originally Posted by kowbra

The difference between those 2 engines are huge; for a couple of reasons.
1. HP is more about acceleration especially when empty (so the hemi wins the race at the lights when empty). Torque is about pulling power. The Cummins has almost twice the pulling power (torque); it wins the race to the top of the hill when towing and by a big margin.

2. The other difference is at what rpm does the HP and torque reach their peaks? For the Cummins, peak torque is at 1800 rpm, which is right about 65 mph in 6th gear. And, for a really steep grade, drop to 5th and pull almost every hill you will likely find. Contrast that to the hemi which needs 4500-6000 rpm to make peak HP and torque; it will shift out of top gear before you even know there is a hill, and keep shifting, and jerking and shifting and shifting... all the while screaming at high rpms and rapidly dropping speed. Meanwhile your buddy passes you with his cummins while calmly eating his sandwich

If your trailer was 8000lbs? Then the hemi will get the job done. At 13,000lbs the hemi is really not the right tool for the job; especially if you anticipate any hills where you travel.

hth
Brad

X2, this is all the key.

I have a neighbor that had a large slide in truck camper in his Ram LB dully with a Hemi that I thought was plenty of truck. He went out west and when he returned he was driving the same model truck with the 6.7 Cummins. Told me he just got sick of hearing that Hemi screaming all the time.

[mlh]

Originally Posted by DebNJim B

X2, this is all the key.

I have a neighbor that had a large slide in truck camper in his Ram LB dully with a Hemi that I thought was plenty of truck. He went out west and when he returned he was driving the same model truck with the 6.7 Cummins. Told me he just got sick of hearing that Hemi screaming all the time.

My brother and I pulled his 7200 pound camper to Wyoming with his 454 Chevy, came home and bought a Dmax.
Lynwood

[paulinbaja]

I have a 2003 7.3 and have never had breaks overheat. The newer trucks have greater horsepower and torque but I have never been at a lack for either. I don't usually pull my 34 rl. But when I do I do not worry on either side, power or breaking. I have pulled many trailers and fifth wheels across the nation and north and south into Mexico and Canada. Driving habits have a lot to do with the effective use of any vehicle. I love my truck.

[Montana Man]

Originally Posted by mlh

After driving a Ecoboost for 6 years and Diesel engines for 20 years if Ford would build a 6 liter Ecoboost I would never buy another Diesel. It could easily produce 900 Torque with the HP at least 600. It would use more fuel but you can buy a lot of gasoline for the cost of a Diesel engine. And you would have all the maintenance of the diesel.
Lynwood.

Do you think that gasser would go 200,000+ miles towing?

[mlh]

Originally Posted by Montana Man

Do you think that gasser would go 200,000+ miles towing?

I’m not sure a new diesel will with all the pollution controls on it will last that long with out expensive repairs. I do hear of the 2.7s going 300,000 without any trouble. With all the pollution controls and high pressure fuel systems that can go bad and cost thousands to replace I would be willing to take the chance.
Lynwood

[DadsHemi]

There’s no gasser that will ever do what a Diesel will do in today’s market or future, longevity or mpg under loads, low rpms rule when it comes to pulling loads. There plenty of emission compliant 6.7 Cummins go well passed 200,000 and into the 350,000 miles. I don’t see Ford ever going to a large displacement eco gas engine.

[richfaa]

Our 08 F-350 Diesel is stock from the factory. We have been up and down about every grade in the country and it works fine.

[mlh]

The Ecoboost boost engines produce 90% of peak Torque at 2000 all the way to 5000 RPM. That isn’t quite as low as a diesel but it’s close. My 6.4 runs at 2000 RPMs or more towing so that is right at peak torque for a Ecoboost. I do think you are right about Ford not building a large Ecoboost. After a lot of people drove a Ecoboost they wouldn’t wont a diesel, me for sure.
Lynwood

[DadsHemi]

Ford will never replace the 6.7 Diesel for some gas power engine for HD towing in our class of towing. Just not going to happen, there’s no advantage.

[kowbra]

Originally Posted by mlh

I’m not sure a new diesel will with all the pollution controls on it will last that long with out expensive repairs. I do hear of the 2.7s going 300,000 without any trouble. With all the pollution controls and high pressure fuel systems that can go bad and cost thousands to replace I would be willing to take the chance.
Lynwood

That just doesn't hold water. Around here there are hundreds of guys using diesel pickups for heavier hotshot work and I have dozens of them as clients.
They often put on over 100,000 a year. Many used to do deletes and tunes and then blew stuff up. Now they've learned to just put fuel and DEF in and drive them as shipped from factory. Some trade them off after 250,000 and some keep them to 400-500,000 or beyond. Most have little to no major issues (although of course there are some who do). They run businesses where every penny gets counted and their overall cost per mile for heavier work (fuel, DEF, repairs, rebuilds and maintenance) is lower than gas and is a primary reason why they drive them. Gas engines (including EcoBoost) will simply not work as hard for as long.
For lighter use, like small packages and stop and start runs, gas engines do work better and EcoBoosts are popular. But, load them up and put lots of miles on then diesels are the norm, by far.

And, let's not pretend that the EcoBoost is a single barrel carb with straight pipes either. It is a very complicated engine with it's own set of things that can go wrong that the owner can't fix, so may require thousands to fix.

I can tell you like them and have good success with them. But the same is true of diesel owners with tens of millions of miles on their modern diesel pickups.

Horses for courses, and if you want to work a truck hard, diesel has advantages and that's been proven for years.

Brad

[Todd727]

https://www.torkusa.com/

[jeffba]

okay just to muddy the waters a bit more

A friend of mine bought a 2020 F250 7.3 gasser. it has an option very similar to an engine brake. She came back from CO loving it. Said it held the speed going down a mountain just fine. she pulls an 8K pound TT

[DadsHemi]

Originally Posted by jeffba

okay just to muddy the waters a bit more

A friend of mine bought a 2020 F250 7.3 gasser. it has an option very similar to an engine brake. She came back from CO loving it. Said it held the speed going down a mountain just fine. she pulls an 8K pound TT

Add another 8K to that number, and come in at 27 to 26K for combined weight truck and trailer. I towed a 9K TT with my 1500 5.7 Hemi with no issues, gas mpg sucked but really never suffered from lack of power.

[JandC]

I have pulled heavy loads with both large gassers and diesels since I was a kid. Someone would have to be pretty naive or extremely inexperienced to ever believe you can get the same performance/safety from both when towing/hauling big loads.

I just came back to Florida from Texas pulling our new 44' fiver. The F350 6.7 with the 10 speed barely downshifted from 10th the whole trip. In other words, it didn't even break a sweat. If I would have had any type of big modern gas engine it would have worked its bottom off the whole trip.

I certainly don't like paying $8,000 to $10,000 more for a new truck because it has a diesel engine, however I know I need one for the loads I pull so there really isn't much choice.

[DadsHemi]

I’m going have to eat some crow here, there is a TFL video with 250 7.3L with 4:30 gears pulling 18K gooseneck stock trailer up the IKE, it did very well going up but the down hill was a fail according to them with the amount of breaking they had to do. Not so sure breaking 10 times on a gas engine is a fail. 2.2 mpg on that run and it stayed in 4 gear.

[dfb]

Originally Posted by MT167

The reason a diesel has more pulling power (torque) than a gasser is due to a longer stroke. Think of it this way, try to loosen a stubborn nut with a six inch ratchet, then try it with a twelve inch breaker bar. The ratchet will require less stroke but the breaker bar will be much easier.

Not the longer stoke.. its the COMPRESSION..SOMEONW POSTED A GAS ENGINE CAN BE CHIPPED TO DO THE WORK OF A DIESEL??? I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT GASSER WOULD GRENADE INTO PIECES..

[JABURKHOLDER]

Originally Posted by dfb

Not the longer stoke.. its the COMPRESSION..SOMEONW POSTED A GAS ENGINE CAN BE CHIPPED TO DO THE WORK OF A DIESEL??? I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT GASSER WOULD GRENADE INTO PIECES..

Why the shouting ?

Anyway...
Torque in an internal combustion engine is produced through several factors...

Compression ratio
Calorific value (energy of the fuel)
Stroke length
Combustion speed
Turbo boost pressure

All of these are higher in a diesel, thus the greater torque value.