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Old 06-01-2018, 04:25 PM   #21
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I'm sorry to hear about your issues with your Montana 3725RL, we have a 2013 3725RL and have had few issues and great support from Keystone, and have had warranty work done by both Lazy Days in Florida and in Tucson along with several free fixes by Keystone while at the Fall Rally as part of their customer services. We use our rig for about 6 months yearly and have traveled to Alaska for a summer and many places in Canada both west and east along with most of the USA so we know our good experience is not from lack of use. Hope things get better for you.
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Old 06-02-2018, 10:12 AM   #22
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I’ve had my 3731fl less than a year, but I agree with Montana3725rl, the quality reminds me of Detroit automakers of the 70’s. If Honda or Toyota got into this business, Indiana would become “Detroit South” of the 80’s.
Keystone may not be the worst quality but I don’t believe theirs is the best.
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Old 06-02-2018, 02:23 PM   #23
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I’ve had my 3731fl less than a year, but I agree with Montana3725rl, the quality reminds me of Detroit automakers of the 70’s. If Honda or Toyota got into this business, Indiana would become “Detroit South” of the 80’s.
Keystone may not be the worst quality but I don’t believe theirs is the best.
Would that make it called the the sawdust belt?
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Old 06-02-2018, 03:35 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Montana3725RL View Post
It's year 5 in June of owning our 3725RL:

Conclusion, expensive pile of crap built to poor standards, the one year warranty for so many people is really 6 months since it's stored for half the year. Designed so mice can get in, there are places I can't get to to stop them, but in the building process they could have put in measures to make it difficult for the little bastards, they didn't and likely never will.

The main AC unit has been bad since year one, Keystone doesn't care since it wasn't caught until right after the 1 year warranty expired. The unit is not serviceable per Keystone but some people have said it can be modified, we haven't needed it so we're waiting.

The hydraulic system was popping badly the first 2 years, the dealer ate part of the cost and installed heavier duty fluid. Still pops now and then but much better.

The Black/Gray tank valves have been replaced twice, leaking tanks have been repaired twice.

The big storage doors have been replaced due to swelling, the new ones are also swelling, go figure.

We have mice in the roof that nobody can get rid of, it would be nice if they did something about all of the easy access holes in these rigs. The mice are destroying whatever is up there.

The water heater stopped working on electricity this year, but still works using gas. Researching the cause, any ideas I'd be happy to hear them.

2 bad batteries even though proper usage and winter storage procedures have been used, their response, we don't make the batteries.

The hallway tile is lifting as is the tile near the heat duct by the bathtub.

The front blue LED's have been replaced 3 times, they no longer function properly, again. Not worth the effort to fix.

Some moron thought putting the junk subwoofer behind the fake fireplace was a grand idea, it wasn't, the entire fireplace rattles and the system sounds like crap.

The Montana 3725RL was expensive as 5th wheels go, I like the full welding on the chassis and the floor plan and my wife loved it so much I bought it.

Biggest.....mistake....I......have.......ever..... made......

You might have a bad electrical circuit board on the Hot Water Hester I know someone with a similar issue, they sell that part on Amazon.
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Old 06-02-2018, 03:47 PM   #25
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730 for a spindle and wheel bearing? I think an entire axle is less than that..i believe the reason we see no difference in brands is BECAUSE THOR OWNS 17 companies! So yes!. They are all the same because Thor is who owns them.. write your congressman and let him know this hurts consumers..
Forest River has the same issues, most RV’s are getting worse, had some luck with FR and have had a good experience with Keystone so far but I have learned to talk and not get hostile but I do understand folks concerns.

We have a 2018 3121RL and for sure will be our last RV as I don’t have the desire to keep fixing these things.

The main problem is that there is no regulation, too many models with too many options and I don’t see a way of standardizing this industry the way the Auto industry is, but I think there needs to be better relationships between MFG’s and dealers bc that seems to be where the big break seems to happen.

I have never purchased any product where I heard, “You didn’t buy it from us so we won’t service it”. I and I ran into that with FR and they don’t care so switched to Keystone and have had a good experience with customer care.

I suggest anyone contact them in regards to your issues....
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Old 06-06-2018, 02:05 PM   #26
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After reading this have to feel that the OP needs another pastime
So what you're saying is you have accepted the low standards RV's are built to so I should as well.

Ahhh NO.
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Old 06-06-2018, 02:11 PM   #27
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The op is "venting" his issues. everyone has the right to say what the issues are with the product they bought. Ive had issues with ours. How does a company improve without feedback?. Companies pay big bucks for customer satisfaction surveys..
Well said, if I posted all of the problems we have had with this rig you wouldn't believe it. I tried to discuss lemon law with a lawyer but guess what we don't have the option for, lemon law. The RV industry has it good, my hopes are somebody comes a long and forces them to start building actual quality with warranties to back them, I doubt this will happen in my lifetime.
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Old 06-06-2018, 02:52 PM   #28
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Put one at each access hole and under cabinets where pipes come in to keep mice away. Worked for us for 5 years so far.

Battery going dead could be charging circuit. Check fuse panel for green LED flashing. Push micro button switch and hold until LED is solid to get full 13V charging. There are 3 charging levels. After battery is charged it will go back to trickle charger with flashing LED.

3725RL
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Old 06-06-2018, 04:04 PM   #29
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I have no problem with owners venting if there is a real problem and that an owner has taken the steps to correct. But when I see maintenance situations and the lack of anything that says that said owner has really taken any initiative to correct them other then call it a "turd" or "pile of crap". In this case, I see no attempt to contact an appliance vendor or even do any research other then VENT.
You don't need to see an attempt, I don't answer to you and can vent as I wish. I've owned this rig for 5 years so the water heater issue is new however during the warranty period it was the responsibility of the dealer and Keystone to repair the items we had issues with.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE ITEMS took multiple attempts including the pocket door for the bathroom that somebody installed broken!! Or the tank valves they installed that were rusted and locked into place and the dealer didn't even check them! Is part of the problem the dealer, hell yes and we could post about horrible dealers till the cows come home as well but the dealer installed what was given to them from Keystone, who ships rusted cables, agreed, the moron tech took the rusted cables and installed them so this should give you some clue as to why I am where I am today, VENTING on a forum.

The list of issues is too long to post here but all of them should have been cared for under warranty since they happened in the first year, except for the AC which happened 2 weeks after the warranty expired and Keystone was all too happy about that and said they didn't have to do anything after the warranty. Which is true, but seriously...

We had a branch cut the rubber roof during a storm, that has been the only repair done properly the first time and that's because I did it, not the dealer. I have repaired other items as well, none have had to be revisited or explained to you.

Quote:
Please recall that these RVs are put together as a box mounted on a frame --- built by a vendor. The water is heated by a gadget built by a vendor. The air is cooled by a device manufactured by a vendor and batteries are made ---- by a vendor. What I haven't seen on this thread are any complaints about that basic box which holds all of these vendor made items, which can be directly attributed to anyone but Keystone.
Lets talk about that awesome chassis "box" shall we? The hyd jacks are crap and because of that the frame warped (the front jacks lost pressure causing the middle of the rig to get pressure) and cracked the kitchen counter and cabinets.

Keystone may not have made everything but they contracted with those companies to provide items that would work properly and they also own the warranty for the first year. I hold Keystone accountable for every single item in the rig since they built the rig.

Quote:
Like it or not, every RV manufacturer uses the same vendor made items. While Thor/Keystone (might add Forest River too)have the ultimate responsibility to choose what they use in that box, there just aren't many choice. If you feel the need to own an RV, this is what you get. For well over $200K you can purchase a custom built New Horizon --- except those vendor made tems are exactly the same manufacturers that a $15K entry level unit uses. Buy a $500K Tiffen or similar, guess what, same thing. These are not a S&B where you have dozens of 'gadget' choices with lots of reviews which will tell you how good/bad an item operates. Your choices are limited to a handful.

So, vent away, but understand that these RVs are not "Turds" or "piles of crap" but are what the industry produces - like 550,000+ last year. And yes, there should be better quality but I'm not holding my breath until the demand settles to a more reasonable number and built by people dedicated to their job, not who will pay them a few cents more and hour down the road.
Since the dealer and Keystone couldn't do their jobs I AM THE ONE doing the repairs to include troubleshooting island power going out without tripping a breaker or the GFI. Replacing the main AC, repairing or replacing the fake fireplace, the Sony stereo and DVD combo that died, the phone USB port in the bedroom, the antenna system that died, the front LED's that were replaced 3 times, the extremely cheap faucets installed in this supposed higher end unit, the ceiling fan wired backwards plus the vinyl tiles that are coming up off the floors that I will have to care for as well.

I plan on venting further about this expensive turd.

Have a nice day.
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Old 06-06-2018, 04:06 PM   #30
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Put one at each access hole and under cabinets where pipes come in to keep mice away. Worked for us for 5 years so far.

Battery going dead could be charging circuit. Check fuse panel for green LED flashing. Push micro button switch and hold until LED is solid to get full 13V charging. There are 3 charging levels. After battery is charged it will go back to trickle charger with flashing LED.

3725RL
My problem is they have found a way into the ceiling and I can't find out how. I have everything else blocked.

Thanks for the info on the charging, will do as you said.
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Old 06-06-2018, 07:44 PM   #31
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5th year of ownership thoughts

Hi Montana 3725rl
I would consider an interior wall as their conduit to the attic, an easy climb. During construction, there are many holes behind cabinetry, that are left open. We have a 2012 3402, & behind the electrical panel in the toilet room, gives me easy access to the attic, as does the utility area behind the bunker wall to gain access to interior walls. They can easily scamper up the wiring or even vent piping. I spent 43 years before retirement, doing electrical, gas fitting, & HVAC, so I understand your pain in all this, but having come from the construction industry, as frustrated as I have felt also at times, these problems come with the territory. As a matter of habit, I am constantly checking things....would I find less trouble with a "higher end unit", I'm not convinced of that, but I would never buy a new unit to begin with, I am a believer in letting the first or even second guy deal with it. My theory is, regardless of what the item is, whether an RV or auto/truck, the manufacturer punts the quality control to the dealer, there is a percentage of people who accept or forget about the problem, & if the dealer has sold you an extended warranty, I guess they end up paying for some of it. It isn't right, but this is where our world is at. We just completed a 27,000 mile trip across America & back across Canada to where we live on Vancouver Island. The three major failures were the bedroom closet collapsed, the peninsula cabinet, the same, & then after arriving home in October, I went to grease my suspension bolts & found the rear axle had torn it's rear spring hangers right off the Montana frame ! I fixed the cabinets "along the trail", but next week, I have an appointment to have the hangers ground off & replaced by a suspension shop here! My wife & I have no regrets, but once the suspension is repaired, we are going sell, not because of disappointment, but because our life long trip is completed & we don't wish to haul a 40 footer anymore. For what it's worth, we came from the boating recreation, our 3 kids spent their summer vacations on our boat, do that for 20 years & having a vehicle that you can pull over to the side of the road & call "OnStar" for help, makes one appreciate the difference ! Keep your chin up, & work towards preventing problems, it will get better !
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Old 06-06-2018, 08:13 PM   #32
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Hi Montana 3725rl
I would consider an interior wall as their conduit to the attic, an easy climb. During construction, there are many holes behind cabinetry, that are left open. We have a 2012 3402, & behind the electrical panel in the toilet room, gives me easy access to the attic, as does the utility area behind the bunker wall to gain access to interior walls. They can easily scamper up the wiring or even vent piping.

I spent 43 years before retirement, doing electrical, gas fitting, & HVAC, so I understand your pain in all this, but having come from the construction industry, as frustrated as I have felt also at times, these problems come with the territory. As a matter of habit, I am constantly checking things....would I find less trouble with a "higher end unit", I'm not convinced of that, but I would never buy a new unit to begin with, I am a believer in letting the first or even second guy deal with it.

My theory is, regardless of what the item is, whether an RV or auto/truck, the manufacturer punts the quality control to the dealer, there is a percentage of people who accept or forget about the problem, & if the dealer has sold you an extended warranty, I guess they end up paying for some of it. It isn't right, but this is where our world is at. We just completed a 27,000 mile trip across America & back across Canada to where we live on Vancouver Island. The three major failures were the bedroom closet collapsed, the peninsula cabinet, the same, & then after arriving home in October, I went to grease my suspension bolts & found the rear axle had torn it's rear spring hangers right off the Montana frame !

I fixed the cabinets "along the trail", but next week, I have an appointment to have the hangers ground off & replaced by a suspension shop here! My wife & I have no regrets, but once the suspension is repaired, we are going sell, not because of disappointment, but because our life long trip is completed & we don't wish to haul a 40 footer anymore. For what it's worth, we came from the boating recreation, our 3 kids spent their summer vacations on our boat, do that for 20 years & having a vehicle that you can pull over to the side of the road & call "OnStar" for help, makes one appreciate the difference ! Keep your chin up, & work towards preventing problems, it will get better !
Very well stated post, thank you very much! I had plans on shifting a post to the positives so I'll start with this one. We have family, grandkids, nieces and nephews out to the rig all the time. The camper provides a very nice environment for them, and the site is big enough to have fun at, nice big fires.... absolutely great for the spring through fall.

My wife has sick parents which is why we switched from a Class A to a 40ft 5th wheel that stays at the same campground site. We should have bought used, its logical and others told us but we wanted new and heard good things about Montana, I should have done more research but once the wife saw the beautiful interior she was sold. We went 4 seasons of the dealer picking up the rig and trying to solve the multitude of issues that kept coming up, there are reasons why we couldn't go to another dealer or find alternate methods that aren't worth getting into and if people can't understand that, they can move on to another thread.

I have some physical issues due to past injuries and a run in with 2 forms of skin cancer and now diabetes that is getting harder to manage even after losing 80lbs. So getting under the rig isn't as easy as it used to be and getting onto the roof, loads of fun but I do it even with my wife yelling at me to hire somebody, may actually do that this year, but I like doing the roof cleaning, we'll see.

I've gotten excellent advice from you and a few others in this thread which was exactly what I was hoping for. I'll be able to do some troubleshooting this weekend on two systems that I feel confident I'll be able to fix because of you guys, I'm grateful for that.
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Old 06-09-2018, 11:18 AM   #33
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We took delivery of our 2007 3475RLS in January, 2008. We have enjoyed using it almost monthly ever since. We have NOT enjoyed taking it in for repair almost every time we used it for the intended purpose.

We suffered repeated damage from three sets of blown Chinese tires until we upgraded to Michelin XPS RIB LT235/85R16 tires manufactured in Northern Ireland. Those tires are now more than seven years old. They still look great but we are apprehensive of their ability to keep on rolling just because of their advanced age. Replacements are $1,404.29 for four including tax, mounting & balance, disposal fee and insurance. No small investment.

Both the gray tank and the black tank are leaking again. Each has been replaced once.

The hydraulic system is leaking and needs to be repaired AGAIN.

The bathroom and kitchen fixtures have significant limestone buildup due to the water in our part of the world. They all need to be replaced.

The original CRT television has been replaced with a modern flat panel. The multi-speaker stereo never worked and the DVD player died after the first year.

The trailer has been stored in a totally enclosed barn when it was not in use. It was hand washed top to bottom by yours truly after each outing. Regardless, all the decals on the front peeled off and the decals on the sides are beginning to peel. The roof was replaced once due to a low hanging oak tree at a gas station.

Bottom line: our $50,000 trailer is now worth between $7,000 and $9,000 at trade in. We might get $10,000 in a private sale. So, we invested $50,000 up front, added about $10,000 worth of repairs and maintenance and we have a $10,000 ROI. That’s a loss of $50,000 or $400 per month for the thrill of taking our bed and potty everywhere we went.

Armed with that knowledge would we do it again? No way.
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Old 06-09-2018, 11:14 PM   #34
Montana3725RL
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We took delivery of our 2007 3475RLS in January, 2008. We have enjoyed using it almost monthly ever since. We have NOT enjoyed taking it in for repair almost every time we used it for the intended purpose.

We suffered repeated damage from three sets of blown Chinese tires until we upgraded to Michelin XPS RIB LT235/85R16 tires manufactured in Northern Ireland. Those tires are now more than seven years old. They still look great but we are apprehensive of their ability to keep on rolling just because of their advanced age. Replacements are $1,404.29 for four including tax, mounting & balance, disposal fee and insurance. No small investment.

Both the gray tank and the black tank are leaking again. Each has been replaced once.

The hydraulic system is leaking and needs to be repaired AGAIN.

The bathroom and kitchen fixtures have significant limestone buildup due to the water in our part of the world. They all need to be replaced.

The original CRT television has been replaced with a modern flat panel. The multi-speaker stereo never worked and the DVD player died after the first year.

The trailer has been stored in a totally enclosed barn when it was not in use. It was hand washed top to bottom by yours truly after each outing. Regardless, all the decals on the front peeled off and the decals on the sides are beginning to peel. The roof was replaced once due to a low hanging oak tree at a gas station.

Bottom line: our $50,000 trailer is now worth between $7,000 and $9,000 at trade in. We might get $10,000 in a private sale. So, we invested $50,000 up front, added about $10,000 worth of repairs and maintenance and we have a $10,000 ROI. That’s a loss of $50,000 or $400 per month for the thrill of taking our bed and potty everywhere we went.

Armed with that knowledge would we do it again? No way.
They can be a challenge, we had 2 leaking jacks and excessive popping that Keystone blamed on our campground site saying it wasn't level enough which I found amusing as did the campground owners.

They ended up trying to sell us a new hydraulic leveling system that was of better quality. As expensive as these rigs are you'd think they wouldn't skimp on something as important as this. I noticed in 2017 the new rigs have a different model hydraulic leveling system.

We got to the rig this weekend only to find water in the kitchen, no clue where it came from.....

I spent my day cleaning off the roof and the tops of the slides, roof looked fine so who knows where it came from.

We won't be buying a new rig ever again, it's the used market for us and loads of research prior to signing.
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Old 06-11-2018, 11:55 AM   #35
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Problems

We bought a3402RL in April 2013. It's had it's problems. Small things the first year. Second year after our first long road trip we notices the wall in the front closet that holds up the shelves would bow as we attached/detached the rig from our truck. Got it back to our dealer after the trip and after much diagnosing with Keystone it was decided the frame was cracked. Keystone asked that the unit be returned to them for repair. We did & it was gone for 5 months. I asked for detailed explanation of repairs and photos. "We don't do that" said Keystone. So to this day we don't really know exactly where the frame was cracked nor what repairs were done. Next year I see staple using up under the roof membrane. Keystone said to wait until it leaked then they might do something. Really! I insisted they be pulled and roof repaired before we had a leak. Our dealer worked a cost share out with Keystone finally. Our last issue has been the bed & kitchen slides. The bed broke off the wall because the jamb nut on the bedroom slide was not adjusted properly so the cylinder just kept pushing the slide out until the be came off the wall. Had it repaired by mobil repair and it did it again in about a week. No more problems since getting it adjusted correctly. Kitchen slide has been dragging on linoleum and scratching it. Not consistently however. But a month ago our dealer said they finally found two screws that were backing out causing the problem.

So we made the move to a 45' class A. Better in some ways worse in others but its the way we had intended to go from the beginning but since we already owned a truck to pull a goose neck horse trailer we decided to try to Montana to see if we'd like RVing. So even with the problems it's fun so we made the move. As someone else has pointed out. All manufacturers use the same suppliers so A/C's heaters, water heaters etc have the same problems in all lines. Ours is at the factory now because the A/C & Heat zones were wired backwards to a couple of zones.

Biggest gripe in the whole industry for me is that if you have a problem and you try to use a non selling dealer for warranty work etc they don't really even want to talk to you with some exceptions to that. Our truck on the other hand is happily serviced at any authorized dealer. Hope the RV industry turns that around.

My two cents worth.
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Old 06-11-2018, 04:59 PM   #36
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They do have different suppliers, dometic vs thetford, dometic vs coleman, or norcold, etc.. it comes down to two things, quality of parts, and quality of work.. overseeing is the headcheese.. in ths case THOR...
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Old 06-11-2018, 06:13 PM   #37
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They do have different suppliers, dometic vs thetford, dometic vs coleman, or norcold, etc.. it comes down to two things, quality of parts, and quality of work.. overseeing is the headcheese.. in ths case THOR...
Actually, it comes down to ONE thing ~~ which is the cheapest. Thor only cares/hopes it lasts a year.
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Old 06-11-2018, 07:04 PM   #38
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"Actually, it comes down to ONE thing ~~ which is the cheapest. Thor only cares/hopes it lasts a year".... you are correct about which is the cheapest.The industry is fiercely competitive a dollar here or there adds up. Touring the different plants and different manufacturers we find they are all pretty much the same.It is not Thor it is all of them.They all strive to produce a Rv for less than the other guy.
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Old 06-11-2018, 07:12 PM   #39
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"Actually, it comes down to ONE thing ~~ which is the cheapest. Thor only cares/hopes it lasts a year".... you are correct about which is the cheapest.The industry is fiercely competitive a dollar here or there adds up. Touring the different plants and different manufacturers we find they are all pretty much the same.It is not Thor it is all of them.They all strive to produce a Rv for less than the other guy.
It is the competitive aspect that is the downfall of most RV MFG’s bc they feel if they took more time to make sure quality was number one, and it took one mfg a week longer then another to produce the same model/layout a consumer might not wait and will go with the other mfg.

If they all push these out as fast as they can they all hope their product will sell first.

The Main issue I see is that the MFG’s do not have great relationships with the dealers. One dealer once told me they are upset a mfg produced a unit, pushes it out the door, then relying on the dealer to fix it when the dealer only gets a small amount for the repair regardless how long it takes them to do the job.

I have the expectations of what my dealer can’t fix, I will have to bring it to the MFG in Indiana to get it fixed right and within the 12 month base warranty. We love our 2018 Montana 3121RL but after this unit we will NEVEr buy another RV keeping this one and if we sell it on our own it will be the end of camping for us. We plan on keeping this one for a while especially once the bugs are worked out of it.
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Old 06-11-2018, 07:21 PM   #40
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We had a 28 foot Sunline Tagalong years ago. One of the best built rigs we owned. Not a lot of bells and whistles, just quality, with a price point 8K above competion. Too many buyers wanted bells and whistles and a cheap price. Sunline, out of PA, went belly up. Still see them on the road.
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