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Old 01-22-2011, 03:48 PM   #1
MAMalody
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Tankless Hot Water

I am in line to have a tankless hot water system installed next month. I was told it would arrive on Friday and will be installed at my site (no additional charge). Works for me because I live in my 5er.
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Old 01-22-2011, 04:36 PM   #2
Art-n-Marge
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Would you please put up some pictures? Will it be propane, electric, both, something else? Great idea! I hope it takes up less room than the existing tank. NO more water heater tank cleanout!

Can you post the link for what you decided to use? Thanks.
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Old 01-22-2011, 09:32 PM   #3
HamRad
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Mike,
We will be waiting to learn how your experience goes with this device. If not too out of line with what exists it might be something that many of us might like to use. Thanks for sharing. Dennis
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Old 01-23-2011, 02:58 AM   #4
CamillaMichael
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by HamRad

Mike,
We will be waiting to learn how your experience goes with this device. If not too out of line with what exists it might be something that many of us might like to use. Thanks for sharing. Dennis
Agree...sounds great and can't wait to hear how it works!
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:31 AM   #5
brenkco
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I had done a ton of research on tankless water heaters for our summer mobile home. They come in natural gas, propane and electric although from what I read, electric was not highly rated. It seemed like the perfect application for us. The one problem for us is water pressure especially on the three holiday weekends in the summer.

From what I learned, the ignition of the heater comes from flow and pressure. Without sufficient flow, you get no ignition thus no hot water. Before I made my final decision I had a plumber come out that regularly installs these units. He confirmed my fears and would not recommend it unless we had good consistent flow and pressure. The tank manufactures have these specs on line in the installation manuals so it is possible to check out the specs in advance. The tests were simple measuring volume/time.

Since we travel with the Monte, we have been at some parks that had very poor flow & pressure. In these parks, I'd worry about not having hot water. If you don't have these issues, I imagine the tankless would be fine. I am certainly no plumber....perhaps some experts can help.

Ken
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:27 AM   #6
exav8tr
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I looked into one of these for my stick home in Alaska. The final temperature depends on the temp of the supply water to start with. We were on a deep well and had pretty cold ground water, so cold that the system would not heat up enough to supply good hot water. Anxious to see if there have been any progress in these in the last 10 years.......
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Old 01-23-2011, 07:11 AM   #7
Ozz
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They are very technical, any repairs or troubleshooting can be costly and frustrating for the owner, trying to find someone where you are to come out and work on the brand you own. I would imagine the tech at an RV place wouldn't have the training to fix, or work on one.
My son thought he wanted one, so I talked with a big plumbing outfit here in town and got no positive feedback from him, he won't even sell them.
He, (Dick Ray, Master Plumber), has a radio show in town also, his father had the business before him. Shawnee Mission Plumbing and Heating.
One problem you wouldn't have, is that in a home, it just doesn't have the capacity for dual use, that is a shower and laundry. Forget about drawing a bath and having anything else running hot water, especially when the water is real cold. This is a 'stick hose', those particular problems you wouldn't have. The use a tremendous amount of Propane when on, also.
I am not trying to be negative, this is just what I have heard. I would feel bad not telling you.
There was a thread about these RV water heaters over on RVNet, you might search that.

Here it is:
http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fu...d/24724582.cfm
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Old 01-23-2011, 07:29 AM   #8
Wild Horse
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When I was rehabbing our home in Ohio, I looked into them. After a lot of research, I came to a conclusion that pretty much matches Ozz' opening sentence...that plus the cost. I guess I would call it "risk/reward"...it didn't add up for my stick built, so it surely ain't gonna hit the numbers in our 'tana, especially with fluctuating water pressure.
Which kinda sux, 'cause I'm one who likes mods !!!
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Old 01-23-2011, 07:30 AM   #9
Wild Horse
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....but I still wanna hear how you like your new setup Mike !
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:22 AM   #10
jpbcny
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I have had a Navien CR-210 Tankless Hot Water heater in my stick house for almost 2 years, I have 2 1/2 Baths, dishwasher, washing machine etc..., have never had any problem with using multiple draws at once, (my son likes to take 45 minute showers), the unit is variable output, so if you are using less than maximum output it runs at a lower heat rate. I live in the Central New York "Frigid Zone", it's 0 Degrees outside right now, and is going to minus 15 tonight, and we have had over 9 feet of snow since the 1st week of December, I have not noticed any measurable drop in the temp of the water heater output during the winter months, (I have the heater set at 125 degree output (mostly because thats what my previous heater was set on) it is incredibely efficient, cutting my gas bill by at least 1/3, I got it for almost free, as the local utility offered a $500. rebate, and the Federal Tax Credit is good for 30% of the install price (up to $1500.). The heater had to be installed by by a registered, and licensed company, my brother is a Licensed Master Plumber, so I bought the unit through him, (about $1200 with the needed accessories, paid him $200 to install it, got $500 rebate from the utility, and over $500 tax credit, as my brother gave me a receipt for the real cost of unit, and installation: about $1600.). I have been researching the RV units myself, and if I need to replace the RV HW Heater I would definitely go for it,

JP
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:26 AM   #11
Ozz
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Good first-hand info, live and learn. Glad it is working out.
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:36 AM   #12
Art-n-Marge
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I'd still be cautious. After all, the testimonial is from a stickhouse. We all know RVs can provide limited sporadic power and fuel resources and low pressure water. RVs are getting close to looking like stickhouses but that's where the comparison ends. My house has not run out of gas, or had low water pressure and very few power problems in the time I've lived in one. I can't say the same for my RV that runs out of propane, the power pedestal fails or is weak and the water pressure is unpredictable.

I am wondering how MAMalody overcomes these issues, mostly because when DW needs hot water, she needs it NOW and uninterrupted. Like you warned, Ozz, things could be better these days and I'll stick with the traditional tank until this technology improves enough for comfort sake.
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:37 AM   #13
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I installed a tankless water heater two years ago in my stick home. After much research, I decided to go with a 200,000 BTUH unit. Two reasons I bought it: 1. Less maintenance 2. Provided extra floor space in Utility Room. I have never had a problem running dishwasher, washing machine and shower at the same time. When we travel, I like the convenience of just shutting it off and forgetting about it. I do not feel there is a realistic energy savings, at least I have not noticed it. The price installed was about $2500, which is much more then a tank style water heater. Also had to increase my natural gas line to the unit. Could have installed a 120,000 BTUH unit but it would not have managed multiple outputs.
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Old 01-23-2011, 12:21 PM   #14
D and M On The Road
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We are having a new awning fabric installed Tuesday at CampingWorld in Vacaville, CA and our hot water heater is "on the fritz" so I am having them troubleshoot it while I am there, with the idea that only a quick & easy fix up to a certain dollar amount is approved.

In case we need a new heater, I've been researching them and from CampingWorld they run $569 for the Atwood, 10 gallon direct spark ignition model plus removal of the old and installation of the new.

For the Do-It-Yourself-ers... at www.pplmotorhomes.com the Suburban 10 gallon direct spark heaters are $379.

I also noticed that CampingWorld has for sale on the store shelf an RV tankless hot water heater for just over $500. I'm going to take another look at it on Tuesday.

I'll be very interested in MAMalody's thoughts once they have the tankless in. We have friends who have them in their stick homes and haven't had any problems plus their heating bills have gone way down. While at CampingWorld, I plan on asking the folks there about their experiences with the tankless heater so far.

We are leaning towards the tankless if we do need a new heater. Cutting our propane usage down would be great.
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Old 01-24-2011, 01:55 AM   #15
Ozz
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Here is the 60 page install and troubleshooting manual for the Bosch heater.
http://tinyurl.com/4fkecql
No big deal for a Master Plumber, but I would be curious if the RV repair tech's would have the training to figure it out, if something goes wrong. A guy would probably OK if you were staying where it was installed, the installer should have the resources to get it going if there is a problem. On the road, it could be a problem.
It looked to me that they have designed it for an RV, so most of the problems they had in the past on the original units should be fixed.
I know in Europe they have been used for a very long time.
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Old 01-24-2011, 05:06 AM   #16
jpbcny
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As a follow-up to my reply-post yesterday, I wanted to check the actual water temp during different flow rates.

Outside Air Temp: -5*F

Tankless HW Heater Inlet Cold Water Temp: 55*F

Tankless HW Heater output temp 125*F

(For this test the taps are wide open on hot only, with temp measured at the farthest tap from the HW Heater)

1 Tap : 120*F

2 Taps: 120*F

4 Taps: 110*F

6 Taps: 100*F

That's 3 Bathroom Sinks, Kitchen Sink, Bath Tub, and Stand Up Shower all running at the same time, wide open (don't have a way of measuring GPM, but the flow from all taps was greatly reduced with all 6 open)

Here is a link to the Specs Navien-CR210 Specs

JP
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Old 01-24-2011, 05:31 AM   #17
exav8tr
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by jpbcny

As a follow-up to my reply-post yesterday, I wanted to check the actual water temp during different flow rates.

Outside Air Temp: -5*F

Tankless HW Heater output temp 125*F

(For this test the taps are wide open on hot only, with temp measured at the farthest tap from the HW Heater)

1 Tap : 120*F

2 Taps: 120*F

4 Taps: 110*F

6 Taps: 100*F

That's 3 Bathroom Sinks, Kitchen Sink, Bath Tub, and Stand Up Shower all running at the same time, wide open (don't have a way of measuring GPM, but the flow from all taps was greatly reduced with all 6 open)

Here is a link to the Specs Navien-CR210 Specs

JP
JP, That is great information. I doubt most folks would have 6 taps on at the same time so this system should handle a family of two very well. We are moving into a new home this summer in AZ and I have always wnated a system such as this. Thanks alot for this research....

Phil
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Old 01-24-2011, 07:03 AM   #18
Art-n-Marge
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With an RV not having the same water pressure and fuel pressures, or insulation like my stickhouse I would like to see those numbers for an RV. More than one faucet open in my RV affects water pressure and turns the water cold if one is using mixed cold and hot. I don't expect more than one faucet to be opened at the same time, but with a 10 gallon hot water tank we don't run out of water.

I like Ozz's promise of improved RV performance of an RV on-demand system today, but it's got to be reasonably comparable to what I have today or DW will not be happy. I got the RV to keep DW happy when we "camp". Things can never get worse.

I will happily await testimonials from RVers with these systems. At this point it's mostly curiosity, but I'm sure I'll get tired of cleaning out my existing H/W tank.

I would love one for the stickhouse, but I believe they are over-priced still paying for new technology and will have to wait another few years until the popularity brings the price down. I might have to wait even longer for an RV model. But that's me and my limited retirement income talking. The list gets longer.
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Old 01-24-2011, 07:26 AM   #19
jpbcny
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Quote:
quote:[i]I would love one for the stickhouse, but I believe they are over-priced still paying for new technology and will have to wait another few years until the popularity brings the price down. I might have to wait even longer for an RV model. But that's me and my limited retirement income talking. The list gets longer.
Check with your Utility Supplier they have offered rebates in the past, for these Tankless HW Heaters, the Federal Tax Credit has been extended for 2011 ($300.), you can pick up a Navien CR-210A on eBAY for $1200 w/ free shipping, I got over $1000 Rebate & Tax Credit in 2009, bringing my cost down to about $400, I have already made that back, and more in the reduced fuel costs...

JP
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Old 01-24-2011, 09:41 AM   #20
pbahlin
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I had a great experience with a tankless heater in my stick house. It supplied all my domestic hot water and it heated the entire house in western Mass, not a warm place in winter. My unit was 180,000 BTU and it could supply endless hot water at 7 G.P.M. with input temp of 45 degrees. Mine supplied 160 degree water which was then mixed down to 130 for DHW and less for my radiant heat.

Be careful what you hear from U.S. plumbing suppliers. They don't like to sell or service stuff outside their comfort zone. This technology is huge in Japan and Europe and is only now getting a foothold here. Many places sell 'tankless' intended for an under counter, single appliance setting. This is NOT the only way to get tankless. Unfortunately people buy these little things and then put them to use in unintended ways. Then they spend the next decade peeing on the technology.
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