Calculating Weights

[RMccord]

I am just wanting to confirm some facts on weights here please.
I am running through weights to insure I stay in line. Here is how I am calculating weights at this time. Of course I am having to estimate the actual weights of the trailer.

I weighed my truck on the scale last week
Total truck weight was 7150 (That was with me, almost full tank and rover.)
I spoke to Charles Wade regarding the published weights and he said that they pad the weights 200 lbs. So if the manual says shipping weigh of 11595 the unit as listed as base would be 11395 but they include the other 200 to account for some of the normally added add options. However if you get 2nd a/c, generator, etc then the weight goes up and over that. That makes sense. What I have done is take thier shipping weight for a 340RLQ of 12595 and add for the 2nd a/c, generator, and slide awnings. I added 600 additional for those. that gives me a total of appx. 13195 lbs. I then added another 1500 lbs for our gear. I would think I am high here by a few hundred lbs knowing what we have in our current trailer but I prefer to go high. (If I had to put money on it I would guess 1100 possibly less.) That gives total weigh of trailer 14695.
From that I am subtracting the estimated pin weight of 2800. That gives me a weigh on the axles of 11895. I then take my truck weight of 7150 plus another 200 for the hitch Total vehicle weight 7350 and add the 2800 for the pin weight take that and add the trailers axle weight to those two 7150 + 2800 + 11895 = 21925 GCW. My unit has a GCWR of 22000
Am I doing this correctly. I anticipate that the pin weight will be a bit less and I feel very confident that the actual clothing, food, dishes and silverware and tools comes to much less than the 500 I allowed for. (I estimated 200 for tools, 200 for food, 500 for clothing (I imagine that is way high, 250 for garage gear(hoses, lubricates, jack, carpet, etc) and that only comes to 1150 a difference of 350. Montana indicates that the pin weigh as shipped is 2105 As you can see I have increased that by 700 lbs. Here again if they are anywhere near close I imagine it will be lower.
So my formula is
Truck Weight + Pin Weight + trailer weight less pin weight

If trailer on scale with no truck weighs 14000 and when attached to truck but truck not on scale the difference between those two weights is the Pin weight correct.

Sorry to ramble on but I want to be accurate.

Thanks

[bigmurf]

Aw this should be a good thread. g

[8.1al]

I don't know how accurate your figures will turn out to but truck weight plus trailer weight will give you GCVW, and yes, trailer weight minus trailer weight when hooked to truck and truck not on scales will give you pin weight. What about propane and water, 60 gal. of water is 500 lb.

[RMccord]

We rarely carry more than 1/3 tank fresh water as we mostly stay in RV parks. Also we alwasy travel with the gray and black tanks empty. So I would have to factor 80 or 100 lbs for the 10-15 gallons of water in the freshtank. plus LP Yep.
Thanks

[bncinwv]

I understood all of that, but I didn't understand about rover??? Will you be travelling alone, with only rover or is there another body or two that needs added to the calculations. I will not comment otherwise due to my pledge to never, ever, ever again address weight concerns. Other than that I would think a more accurate reading of pin weight would be truck hooked up and weighed with camper off scale and truck weighed by itself, subtract weights and the difference has to be pin weight. Am I wrong with this reasoning, weight gurus????
Bingo

[snfexpress]

I was going to ask about Carol, too. Does she have to stay home?

[sreigle]

Bob, you're doing some pretty good work there and I'm glad you're adding some fudge factor. It seems the rig when put on the scale is always more than expected. I haven't weighed this Dodge yet but did weigh the Ford and the Montana. We run pretty heavy. With 2/3 freshwater and the Montana just as we tow it, it scales at 14,620. Pinweight is 2,860 and weight on the axles is 11,760. UVW on the door sticker is 11,900.

Extras adding to the UVW include gelcoat and a washer and dryer stack.

These are pretty close to your numbers. Hopefully they'll give you something to compare to so you can massage your numbers. I'd be curious when you get the rig and get it weighed just how close your estimates are. It looks to me you're doing a good job of being realistic about the weight. You might be a bit low on that 1,500 figure for your personal gear, though. I don't know how that stuff adds up so high but it sure seems to.

[rogue]

Just weighed my system.

Truck only: Front 4260 Rear 2960

Truck w/5er Front 4350 Rear 5300 5er axels 9150

Delta Front +90 Rear +2340 5er 9150 total 11450

Truck Sticker
Axle Maximums Front 4670 Rear 6084

5er sticker 12200

Truck Tow capacity for a 5er is 14200


So far everything looks good, but wait a minute.

Truck GVWR 9200 my front of 4350 and rear of 5300 = 9650 PROBLEM HERE
So even thou my front load and rear load are under their respective Axle ratings, the overall rating is less than
the sum of the two ratings.

So I need to find a way to move weight off the PIN and add it to the 5er axels. (My problem, not looking for ideas,
just stating what I need to do to get within spec.)

Just thought I'd list these so everyone can see all the different weights that need to be looked at:
TV Front Axle, TV Rear Axle, PIN weight, 5er Axles, Tow weight for 5er, and TV GVWR.

Only true way to know is getting actual weights.

5er was loaded as we would normally travel, full LP, and between 1/3 and 2/3 tank fresh water, dunp tanks empty.
TV 2007 Chevy Classic 2500 Duramax: with 3/4 tank diesle, myself, wife and dog.
Our Montana is a 2007 (built in August 2006) 2955RL with the 5200# Axles.

Updated Truck Tow capacity for a 5er is 14200

[MacDR50]

Good thread and good information. Those numbers can be a real bother. I did the math and quickly found out that adding features such as 4X4, Crew Cab etc. reduced the payload capacity as they didn't increase the GVWR, just ate into it. I hope we get some more actual weight posts because they give a real picture. My 3585 (spring 2008 delivery)is spec'd at 11025 shipped and 4300 lbs of carrying capacity for a grand total of 15325 lbs. Since I really do not know what options are in that 11025 and therefore what remains in the 4300 capacity for my cargo, any guess I make at final weight including Pin is just that, a guess. The listed Pin is 1825. I presume that is based on the shipping weight. A more realistic figure would be in the 2300-3000 lb range (15-20% of maximum weight.) Anyone ever weight a 3585?

As to TV I am taking a wait and see attitude but it will probably be a SRW, Crew with diesel. The question is will it be 3/4 or 1 ton. The answer lies in that Pin weight.

[RMccord]

Roque:

Where did you find the 5er tow capacity for the truck?
There is a 12000 capacity for towing but that is because the reciever on the truck is rated at 12000.
The GCWR is 22000. Your truck with out trailer weight 7220. Subtract that from 22000 you have 14780. If your pin is lets say 2700 then the axle weigh is 12080 plus pin 2700 for total 5er weight of 14780.
Now if you add that 2700 to your unloaded weight of 7220 you are at 9920 or about 700 over the 9200 for the vehicle. Your rear axle would have 2700 plus 2960 coming to a total on the rear axle of the TV of 5660 well below the 6084. SO front and rear axle are within the parameters of the vehicle.
My unit was shipped from GM weighing 6179 lbs as I have the invoice. It is rated for a 3000 pin weight so 6179 + 3000 comes to 9179 leaving only 21 lbs for fuel, driver and passenger if working strickly from those figures. Not likely going to work. If using this formula of max 9200 and the original vehicle weighed 6180 + driver 225, wife 140, dog 60, full fuel tank 240, hitch 200 and nothing else the max one could have for a pin weight is 2100 lbs. almost 30% less than advertised. I think when pulling a 5er (and I could be wrong, as I am new at this but I am studying very hard) is as long as no axle rating on the TV or 5er is exceeded, and the GCWR of the team is not exceeded and the pin weight is also not exceeded then you are within limits.
I would appreciate hearing from the more experienced out there as I am a novice on the 5er.
Thanks and Roque I super appreciate your getting back to me. It helps allot and I hope you don't feel I am bucking you I am not. Just talking out loud so I can be straightened out if my thinking is off.
Are you going to the spring rally?

Thanks again
Bob

[rogue]

Hi Bob, I found the towing capacity in the 2007 Classic Silverado book that came with the truck (towing section P426 -438). I miss read the line on the truck the towing capacity (Max Trailer Weight) should be 14,200# (I have edit my prior post with the correct number). The Gross Combined Weight Rate is 22,000. The book also states PIN weight up to 3,000#
To be legally correct, one should not exceed any of the ratings. As you may/have seen on some of the posts (including mine) this is not always possible.

Unfortunatly will not be going to the spring rally.

[Bill and Lisa]

Rogue and RMccord,

RM, I am not sure why you want to discuss theoretical numbers with Rogue when he has actual weights to work with. I understand having to make estimates if you don't have a 5th wheel yet or the truck but he has both and actual weights. I will take that data over the published manufacturers data any day. A careful review of rogues numbers will show you that 90# of rouge's pin weight is actually being carried on the front axles vice all being added to the rear axle. His ACTUAL pin weight is 2430 (difference between his loaded truck weight (9650) and unloaded truck weight (7220). I have yet to find "pin weight" ratings but I have an 01 - maybe they are publishing that data now. With an unloaded truck weight of 7220 towing a rig with a 3000# pin weight puts his GVW at 10,220; about 1000#s over his GVWR of 9,200. There are 4 weight ratings I am aware of on a truck - a front and a rear axle rating, a gross vehicle weight rating, and a gross combined vehicle weight rating. Good luck getting a manufacturer to tell you that you can disregard any one of them. Rogue, in this case your GCVR is, as others have stated 22,000#. Your GCVW (actual) is 18,800. (4350+5300+9150). So, you are well within 3 out of the 4 ratings. As you have noted you exceed the GVWR for the truck. There are several threads on this site discussing weights. You are not alone. I don't have experience with Ford and Dodge, (I think Ford has a higher GVWR) but I have not found anyone towing a Monty with a chevy 2500 that is under that 9200 rating. Just what that means to you that no one else meets that rating is up to you. I have made changes to get closer to the rating since I weighed my unit but I know I still exceed that one. I have done some things that I "Believe" improve my margin of safety (or reduce my risk if you prefer). The rear axle rating of 6084 happens to be the max rating two 245/75 R16 G Load rating tires can carry. I upgraded to 265/75's which can carry 600# more combined. Doesn't change the stated rating of the truck but I "believe" I have reduced my risk by not exceeding the max carrying load of my tires. (in my case I was under the rear axle limit loaded by 6 lbs and didn't have my wife in the truck at the time). I have added firestone air bags which I "Believe" will shift some additional weight from my rear axle to my front axle by leveling the truck. I have reduced the amount of Fresh water I carry since on my model the fresh water tank is forward of the axle and some of the weight in the tank shows up in the pin weight. Those of you with your fresh water tank aft of the axles (where your drain valve comes out of the underbelly is a good indicator) may find carrying more water in your FW tanks helps as it reduces the weight on the pin by counterbalancing some of the weight forward of the axles. Rogue, looks like you have the room on your 5th wheel GVWR to handle the additional 500 lbs of water with no problem....Other than that your options for reducing your pin weight (and it's contribution to your truck's gvwr) is to:
1. reduce overall weight of the trailer by unloading stuff you don't use.
2. repositioning heavy items which are forward of the axle as far back as possible (generator to a rear bumper mount?)
3. modify your truck you minimize the likelyhood of weight bearing components failing (adding a leaf to the springs, airbags, higher rated tires etc.) remembering that these will not change the rating numbers the manufacturer published but will have an impact in the real phyical world and the stress on the components that could lead to premature failure.

That's my 2 cents worth, and not all will agree. Gives you something to think about and help you weigh things as you make your decision. (which is why you asked the questions to start with).

Bill

[rogue]

Bill, Thanks for a well stated post. Since I have the 2955RL, there is not much I can move to the back unless I really like to load and unload by the rear chairs with every move -not. I was thinking that I could add more water as the fresh water tank is in the back. That night take a little weight off the pin, but my guess is by adding 400# of fresg water, I would only reduce the pin weight by about 100-150# (of course I would need to weight it to prove the numbers). I have 3 heavy items in the front of the Montana, 2 Kiper Generators (60# each), and a 60# tool box. Don't really want to move these inside and have to move them out every time.

I have the Firestone Air bags, thats why some of the PIN weight is on the front, and a small part of the difference between, without the 5er, and with, also has DW and dog in the front seat (about 135#) with the 5er.

Fortunatly most trips that I take, take me past scales that are seldomly used but left on, so I can weigh on most every trip and see if I make progress to reducing the GVWR.

One of the things I was trying to do with my post was to help show some of the newer folks what they need to look at. I think between both of ours, that should give them some help in that area.

[Mudchief]

The new 08 may be different but before that when you purchased a 1 ton SRW the sticker stated you had more cargo capacity than a 3/4 ton. But they both came with the 245 tire which limits you to 6084 pound on the rear. However people felt more secure because of the sticker.

[mail2us]

I coming to you as a novice and my truck is 9200# GVWR. With full fuel and wife and I my truck weighs in about 7300#. That would only leave 1900# remaining of the GVWR max to hitch the 3400RL which Montana says is 2000#.

In reading this thread there didn't seem to be much said about the Actual Truck GVWR with the hitch. Someone did indicate that just about anyone with a 2500 Chevrolet would be over their GVWR.

Is that a correct thought or am I still lost?

Dennis

[bsmeaton]

RM - I think what you will find is a "clan" here in the MOC that use the lighter weight trucks for doing the heavier jobs, but they also attend rallies and have allegiences with other folks that control the MOC so you will only hear the side that says it's OK. The rest are pretty much moderated out and most of those folks have left the MOC.

I am comforted to know that the MOC represents less than 1% of the actual RVers out there.

[richfaa]

Do your home work and understand ALL the manufacturers weight spec's. Understand Pin weight and cargo capacity and I say that because these are the most overlooked and miss understood spec's. There are two schools of thought here on this forum as well as other forums.1. The manufacturers specifications posted on your truck are pretty much advisory/informational in nature, There is no legal requirement to adhere to them( that is IMO undetermined but could be true)..this is the ..drive it,pull it and don't worry crowd. 2,The manufactures specifications do mean something and are posted on the truck for good reason. Even if not a legal requirement it is a written statement by the manufacturer as to what they state are the limits their truck is designed to pull and Haul (cargo capacity) within. I belong to the second group. I also attend rallies and have no idea who controls the MOC. My suggestion is not to make a decision based on the opinion of either group but research the issue throughly and make the decision that is the best and safest for you and your family.
That is what we did and we did not purchase the truck of our choice but the truck that was best for the job we required it to do.

[MacDR50]

Like Richfaa said, the math is pretty simple but getting the right numbers less so. Figure Pin weight to be 15-20% of trailer GVWR not the amount shown in the Montana specs. Figure also that the shipping weight shown in the specs is net of any options. I will be going with a 1 ton, 2wd, crew cab, long box with a diesel and automatic. It will be diesel because it is more economical and better for the environment. I am teetering with respect to SRW or DRW simply because of the difference in unloaded ride comfort. The hitch will me minimum 18k. Can you tow a big 5th wheel with a 3\4 ton? Yes you can and airbags, overload or leveling springs will keep your TV nice and level. They will also shift a small amount of your PIN weight onto the front axles. They will not increase your payload capacity.

[Ozz]

quote:Originally posted by bigmurf

Aw this should be a good thread. g

Popcorn and a soda......

[exav8tr]

And the saga continues........