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Old 07-12-2007, 03:56 PM   #41
Wrenchtraveller
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Where does all this fit into the conversation?

Both the F250 and F350 may have the same combined rating.....say 23000 pounds.
Both trucks can weigh the same if they are the same body models and equipped the same.
The F250 will have a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of 10000 pounds.
The F350 will have a GVWR of 11400.
This means the F350 is rated to carry 1400 pounds more weight ( payload )
Everything we put in a truck or on a truck is payload,......... people,fuel,pin weight of a fifth wheel, bumper weight of a regular trailer, it is all payload, so if your F250 has a payload of 2300 pounds and your fifth wheel has a pin weight of 2300 pounds , you are completely loaded up, everything else you load in the truck will be overloading it.
This exact same situation with an F350 will give you an extra 1400 pounds of extra payload so you can load up your truck with people, supplies, etc and not be overloaded.
I hope I made it a little clearer and you have a lot of company if you have trouble with this.
Most car salesmen and RV salesmen have no idea how GVWR and GCWR work.
 
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Old 07-12-2007, 04:02 PM   #42
sreigle
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Bill and Lisa, the airbags will not change the GVWR, which is a rating assigned by the manufacturer. In the U.S. I have never before heard it has anything to do with Dept of Transportation. It's a guideline. Period. In the U.S. I think that differs in Canada. In any case, the airbags will allow the truck to maintain level with the additional load. If you are within the ratings for the axles and the tires, as well as the GCWR, I would not be concerned. If you are over on axle or tires, then you have some decisions to make.
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Old 07-12-2007, 04:18 PM   #43
Wrenchtraveller
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I guess if you can call the GVWR of your truck a guideline, you must believe that someone can be a little bit pregnant.

Read your truck brochure from any make. Here's a quote from an 04 Ford Brochure.

"THE ADDITION OF TRAILER KING PIN WEIGHT AND WEIGHT OF PASSENGERS AND CARGO MUST NOT CAUSE VEHICLE WEIGHT TO EXCEED REAR GAWR OR GVWR"

Does this sound like a guideline? What does Ford know about this ...... they only build the truck. I hate to quote Al Gore but the term "inconvenient truth" applies to more than just global warming.
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Old 07-13-2007, 09:03 AM   #44
Cat320
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Wrenchtraveller

I guess if you can call the GVWR of your truck a guideline, you must believe that someone can be a little bit pregnant.

Read your truck brochure from any make. Here's a quote from an 04 Ford Brochure.

"THE ADDITION OF TRAILER KING PIN WEIGHT AND WEIGHT OF PASSENGERS AND CARGO MUST NOT CAUSE VEHICLE WEIGHT TO EXCEED REAR GAWR OR GVWR"

Does this sound like a guideline? What does Ford know about this ...... they only build the truck. I hate to quote Al Gore but the term "inconvenient truth" applies to more than just global warming.
Here's what the 07 Chevy Classic brochure says:

"Addition of trailer hitch weight cannot cause vehicle weights to exceed Rear Gross Axle Weight Rating (RGAWR) or Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR). These ratings can be found on the certification label located on the driver door or door frame."

For more light reading, here's a quote from Trailer Life Magazine:

From Trailer Life 2007 "Guide To Towing", page 14:

"The GVWR figures are neither guidelines nor estimates; they are limits, and there are numerous valid reasons the manufacturers arrived at the figures given. If you think these figures are "close enough" or have a fudge-factor percentage built in, think again. Your warranty coverage--and your safety--may be at risk".
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:50 PM   #45
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Bert, it seems like us weight police have some heavy hitters on our side. The people that make the vehicles, the insurance companies, warranty people, RV makers, on and on and on. All the best and keep up your informative and accurate posts.
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:55 PM   #46
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I would love to have a Ford and/or GM engineer (or whoever sets this final GVWR number) come on here and describe the "numerous valid reasons the manufacturers arrived at the figures given." I do not condone running overweight under any circumstances. However, not one person (unless I missed it - not even the Trailer Life guru that Bert quoted above - seems to want to give specific reasons why.

I am sure there truly are valid reasons and specific cause and effects, but WHAT ARE THEY??? Axle failure? Frame failure? Transmission excessive wear and reduced life? Control problems? Global warming??? And "Yeah, all of those..." is a lousy answer and a cop out in my humble opinion.

Why can't we find an automotive engineer to explain SPECIFICALLY what the main concerns and/or dangers are - and in order of greatest to least - of going over their assigned GVWR??? Also, do they have a specific percent margin of safety (yes, I know that would be bad to let people know that specific number)?

There must be some warning signs of structural failure if you are overloaded, beside just watching CAT scale weights. Is there nothing we can watch for?

BTW, Bill, the empty weight of your Kipor 3000 is 132 lbs w/o the 3.5 gals of gasoline - an additional 7 lbs x 3.5 = 24.5 lbs + 132 lbs = 156.5 lbs. I keep my tank full at all times after an incredible adventure trying fill my tank during a violent thunderstorm with driving rains and 65 mph winds when our CG lost power (in 115 degree heat). I'll never get caught with an empty gen tank again...

Also, I had 265x75-16s and I dropped back down to the 245x75-16s that GM strongly urges their customers not to stray from. The load capacity is identical in these two tire sizes. My experience is that you will go WAY over your posted GM GVWR well before any of your axle/tires ratings are approached...

One note: upgrading tires also increases your overall vehicle weight. Larger tires are heavier. Also, from an engineering standpoint, larger diameter tires require more power (read poorer fuel mileage) to turn them. I am extremely happy with my Michelin LTX M/S 245x75-16s on my 2002 2500 HD 4x4 D/A.

Another note: Bill that 2" forward of the axles sounds problematic. I was actually 10 lbs LIGHTER on my frt axles with my 3400 hooked up than when I just weighed the truck and contents alone. I also travel with a 1/3 FW tank, but my tank is behind the rear axles of the 3400 - not like the 3000RK apparently.
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Old 07-14-2007, 01:02 AM   #47
Bill and Lisa
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Dave,
Thansk for the feed back.

I too would love to know the engineering answers. one because I like to understand things but more importantly so I know where to concentrate my corrective actions. Unfortuneately I don't have enough money to:
- change out all the tires
- add a spring leaf
- ad airbags
- build a custom generator box on the rear of my Montana
- modify/extend the kingpin
so I would like to be able to prioritize my list by most impact.

The tires were on the truck when the dealer sold it to me (used) but I will look at going back down when these need to be replaced. The door sticker recommended max inflation of 55psi on the 245's - I am running 70 psi in the 265's and the max for the 265's is 80 psi based on the sidewall numbers. Considering my scale readings I am considering increasing up to 80 psi. If the load capacity of the two sizes is the same why are the pressures so different. Can you tell me what the max pressure posted on your 245's sidewall is?
I also understand that my odometer will not read true with the larger tires as well and it will affect my MPG calculations.
As I have several times lifted my kipor into and out of my truck bed (alone) I didn't think it weighed that much. But I like your numbers! I feel stronger! It will also help get me back closer to my GVWR better than only counting it as 80 lbs.

Dave, It could be the early morning cobwebs haven't cleared my head yet but I am not sure what you mean when you say the 2" forward of the rear axle sounds problematic. What I read before when researching hitches, what the dealer said, and what others have said on this forum is the hitch SHOULD be centered 2" (some say slightly) for ward of the rear axle. this "should" cause some of the weight to be placed on the front axle. My numbers confirm it does (or confirm my center point is forward of the rear axle). Please go into more detail on why you believe this is problematic.

Thanks again for the response and sharing your knowledge.

Bill
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Old 07-14-2007, 04:31 AM   #48
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I completely wore out the front end of my 95 F250 4x4 8800 GVWR because the 95 Vanguard slide in camper we had at the time , loaded up with me and my family weighed in at 11200 pounds.
2400 pounds overweight, handled and braked well and the PSD did not hardly know the camper was on.
We did a trip down to South Cal, weighed it on a Cat scale. I thought I might be a little over my GVWR, 2400 lb was way over my comfort rating , we drove a lot slower on the way home, sold that camper and went back to a fifthwheel.
Shortly after that, my steering wheel stayed 1/4 turn from normal position, I heard a clunk going around corners. I brought it in, the swivel bracket, a main component of the Ford 4x4 IFS
was broken off in one corner, holes egg shaped, 2 bolts missing out of 4
The truck steered well, it was low mileage, had done very little 4x4 off road and the front end was wore out. I got it fixed under warranty. It was a big bill.

On tire pressure, always when loaded , have your rear tires at max. Mine are always at 80 PSI with the fifth wheels. When I had Slide in campers and knew I was over my GVWR , I ran them at 90 PSI. I got this from a tire web site that stated when running tires at their max weight rating, it is OK to go 10 over max. This was 10 years ago. Maybe this advice is no longer current. Anyway, I ran 90 and never had problems.
On any weight rating, the weakest component, sets the rating.
My SRW 2005 F350 has a 7000 lb rear axle. to get that rating the tires would have to be at least
rated for 3500 lb. In fact the 18" Continentals are rated for 3640 so this is a total of 7280.
Now Ford would love to call this a 7280 pound rear end and leave the competition even further behind.............but they can't, some component is keeping the rating at 7000.
One last point on weight ratings, before I talk about hitch placement.
Your axle ratings, front and rear always add up to more than your gross rating.
This is a safety margin I would not ignore. Going a little over your GVWR is no biggee.
Going over your axle ratings is not a good thing.
My own example, My truck's GVWR is 11200. My rear axle is 7000, front is 5600 so total is 12600.

On hitch placement I have installed the hitch that I own now on my last 3 trucks. http://www.hijacker.com/
has very good instuctions on hitch placement. Fifth wheel hitches are installed with the pin centred over the rear axle or up to 3" in front of the axle. Mine is about 1/2" in front.
This is for optimum handling but I have talked to people who have mounted hitches aft of their axle centre to get more clearance on a short bed. I don't agree with this nor do the hitch companies but even in hitch installations we have people that think specs are only guidelines.
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Old 07-14-2007, 04:36 AM   #49
dsprik
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[quote]quote:Originally posted by Bill and Lisa

The tires were on the truck when the dealer sold it to me (used) but I will look at going back down when these need to be replaced.


The door sticker recommended max inflation of 55psi on the 245's - I am running 70 psi in the 265's and the max for the 265's is 80 psi based on the sidewall numbers. Considering my scale readings I am considering increasing up to 80 psi.
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Old 07-14-2007, 04:59 AM   #50
dsprik
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Thanks, Don for the info on the hitch. I'll bet the bearings on an overloaded rr axle don't last long either. Some of the U bolts on the Montanas that are coming loose may be from overloading, too?

I have Airlift airbags as of May. I have only towed a short distance (150 miles) since then. I would think that my minus 10 lbs on my frt axle with the Montana on would disappear with the truck now level? I can see how one could distribute more of the gross weight to the frt axle by moving the hitch forward. Frt axles are rarely in danger of exceeding their GVAWR. My only thought is that along with the frt axle gaining more of the weight distribution, the frame would also have some additional load added to it if the center of the hitch is moved off the rr axles. Must be a nominal increase though?
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Old 07-14-2007, 06:20 AM   #51
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by ols1932

Just abide by the manufacturer's weight listings and you have nothing to worry about. I don't know any "full timers" who are not overweight (their rigs, I mean). I get a little tired of the same "weight police" weighing in (pun intended) to tell me I'm exceeding the limits of my vehicle.

Orv
Orv, no one is forced to read posts on weights or regulations. If my posts upset you in any way, I promise I will not be offended if you stop reading them. I enjoy your posts and I respect your experience.
I never get tired of people I don't agree with and the reason much of this is repeated over and over if for new readers trying to choose a TV. If I can't fulltime without being overweight than I guess I will never full time. The new Ford F450 will insure that a full timer can be within specs.
Also, the name of this thread is " Another Weight question"
Maybe you should start a thread called, " Slamming people I don't agree with."
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:31 AM   #52
Wrenchtraveller
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Orv, I owe you an apology if your post was a personal slam. I have always believed in treating people the way they treat me and I was only responding that way because the term "weight police" which has been given to me and Bert is not a respectful term.
Anybody wants to call me a "weight policeman" , the gloves are coming off. Thanks for the response and please don't quit posting.
Everyone would miss out on some great info if you quit but remember, call me a weight policeman because I believe in rates and regulations and the tone of my posts will change.
I post not to remind people that they are overweight, I post for the people that don't realize they might be overweight.
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Old 07-14-2007, 11:26 AM   #53
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I find this thread most enlightening.
I knew almost nothing about these weights before I began investigating what I needed to know about towing a 5th wheel. When I drove semi's I knew what I needed to not load overweight and how to balance the load horizontally and vertically on the trailer and tractor. I think it is unfortunate there is no legal requirement to know these things to drive a 5er (OR a motorhome).
I must add I especially enjoy the posts where the sources are cited so I know the level of "authority" behind the figures.
I, for one, hope this type of interaction continues on any subject of general interest. It is the way I learn what to do, what not to do and how to be safer and more economical when going on the road.

By the way, I find the term "weight police" to be rather comical instead of degrading. I am 20 pounds over on my body weight (BMI also) and, although I am trying to lose weight, I need to know who the weight police are so I can avoid them.
Larry
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Old 07-14-2007, 11:58 AM   #54
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If we are to be PC. What is the "correct" term for "weight police" ?
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Old 07-14-2007, 12:03 PM   #55
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Well Just for the record I completely agree with Don and Bert and I am sure that if a automotive engineer came here and explained why the specs are what they are and why it would not make any difference because folks will keep on doing what they are doing and the only justification that is needed is that they are doing it. Quotes from the manufacturers manuals that are contrary to what folks are doing will only make it worse.The good news is that there are no doubt many folks on the forum who will be able to further investigate and make a decision that will be the best for them. From what we see out here on the road there are a lot of Rv'ers who have no clue about weight and safety.Ait of information may be a good thing.
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Old 07-14-2007, 12:09 PM   #56
richfaa
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In Ohio the "weight Police " are a division of the Ohio State Patrol....Motor Carrier Enforcement.. AKA "the weight police":I am sure the name varies State to State..they are much more than " Weight Police" Example they inspect our school busses twice a year for safety.
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Old 07-14-2007, 01:16 PM   #57
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See a lot of 3400 numbers used here. Just wanted to post my 3655FL numbers to stir the pot.
Steer axle 5200
Drive axle 10750 (pin 3100)
front axle 6200
rear axle 6000
Onan generator,4 batteries,70 gal water,65 gal fuel,lots of tools(junk?)
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Old 07-14-2007, 01:40 PM   #58
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Well I have to say I think these threads are very informative as well.
I have learned much reading these threads, we presently have a trailer and not a 5th wheel (in a few years maybe), but my eyes have been opened regarding truck capabilities, weights of these units, and even different layouts.
We`all have something unique to contribute to these forums, and I would hate to see anyone offended or feel they cannot relay information that would be helpful to others.
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Old 07-14-2007, 02:34 PM   #59
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The reason I continue to post on these "weight" threads is for the benefit of the new folks. When I joined the forum, I was doing my research on 5th wheels and TVs. My first post was concerning what TVs were being used to haul Montanas. The TV research was on going, but it was far enough along so that when the "been towing with this 3/4 ton for years, never had a problem" posts came rolling in...I knew the posters were over weight. BUT, nobody admitted that they were over weight, just how great their trucks 'pulled'. As I have said before, if folks are going to tell a new member how great their truck pulls, they need to be up front and honest enough to tell them they are over weight. There are a number of MOC members that are driving 3/4 ton trucks that don't want to be driving them...they got that truck based on what a salesman (truck or RV) had told them and/or what they learned on the forum. I've had a number of PMs from these good folks who are quite upset that they received bad information resulting in buying a $45k truck that won't do what they want it to do...which is stay within the manufacturer's limits.

So, as long as the "tows fine don't have a problem" posts keep coming, I'll respond with the rest of the story, which is cargo capacity. Also, if the truth be told, I'd bet most MOC members did not know you could find the cargo capacity on the left rear sticker I keep mentioning.

As for why...I'm like Dave, I'd love to know 'why.' But, the bottom line is it doesn't make any difference why it is what it is. The mechanical engineers have figured it out, and I guess they aren't going to tell us the hows and whys.
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Old 07-14-2007, 04:28 PM   #60
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Thanks mostly to the information we found on this site regarding towing weights, we bought a dodge dually last week. We're not crazy about having a dually, but feel that it was the safest way to go for long term fulltiming. I hope we can drive this truck for a lot of years and feel if we buy enough truck for our Big Sky we'll be better off down the road. Keep posting info on weights as it's an important issue and people like me appreciate learning this especially when we're new at rv'ing and trying to make smart decisions.
Judy
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