Another weight question?

[Connorsmom]

Uhhhh...yep, thats just what I was thinking...

Jan

[rldriver]

Thanks Bert and Don, now see if you agree that I have a problem:
Acutal truck weight= 7540# loaded with fuel and junk.
Tow capacity of the truck is 16,400#
Truck GVWR = 9,900#
GAWR front 5,200# actual weight is 4,520#
GAWR rear 6,150# actual weight is 3,020#
Weight of Big Sky +- GTWR 16,100# say 3,200 pin and 12,900 Axles

1. If I add the actual weight at the rear axle of 3,020 + the PW of 3200 this equals 6,220# or 70# over the rear GAWR.

2. I am under the tow capacity of 16,000# as I assume this means the weight of the trailer. I can not find a GCWR listing on my truck.

3. My problem. My truck weights 7,540# and the PW is 3,200# or a total of 10,740# so if I subtract this from my GVWR of 9,900# I am over the GVWR by 840#.

If I follow your example then I have to find a way to reduce the PW and truck payload by 840#. This is a 3500 dodge.

Thanks again for all your assistance.

[Cat320]

Dick...looks to me like you have broken the code...your numbers look correct.

A question/comment or two;
- Where did you get the pw of 3200 (20% of 16100?)...is it correct?
- Is your pin mounted directly over the rear axle? Mine is 2" forward, this transferes some weight, not much, to the front axle.
- The pw should be 15% to 25% of your loaded weight...therefore, if your loaded weight is 15000 rather than 16100 (do you know it will be 16100?), your pw could be as low as 2250...15% X 15000. Or if the GW was lowered to 15500, the pw could be as low as 2325.
- Don't know where your water tank is on the 2980, but I would not add weight to the water tank to reduce pw. This is advocated by some folks but is not a good idea. Adding weight to the rear tends to reduce lateral stability and increases the possibility of the tail wagging the dog, especially in a short bed truck (don't know what yours is).
- I don't know your GCWR either, but since your GVWR and tow ratings are similar to the SRW GM one ton, I'd think your GCWR would be similar...22000. FWIW, the 2006 Dodge brochure shows no tow ratings of 16400...what equipment do you have...4 wd, 2wd, axle ratio, cab style, etc?
- Using your numbers, the truck would weigh 10740 and the trailer would weigh 12900 (16100 - the 3200 in the truck bed), giving you a GCW of 23640. To double check those numbers, take the ready to tow truck weight of 7540 and add the loaded trailer weight of 16100 = 23640.
- I think that will exceed your GCWR...my GCWR for the dually is 23500.

Looks like the age old problem of too much trailer or too little truck.

[exav8tr]

We seem to be having the same probls as we do with light aircraft. There are not too many 4 seat aircraft that can carry 4 adults and still have enough fuel to go across town. When you add in a decent fuel load you then have to leave someone behind. Go Figure!!!! I thought when I gave up flying I was done with Weight and Balance data. At least with an overloaded land vehicle you're not worried about taking off or having enough lift to get over the mountains.

[exav8tr]

I have to go lay down, this is a weighty issue!!!!!!!

[rldriver]

quote:Originally posted by Cat320

Dick...looks to me like you have broken the code...your numbers look correct.

A question/comment or two;
- Where did you get the pw of 3200 (20% of 16100?)...is it correct?
As I am still waiting for the delivery of the BS I am using 20% of the 16100 to run some rough numbers
- Is your pin mounted directly over the rear axle? Mine is 2" forward, this transferes some weight, not much, to the front axle.
Good point but it's to cold and dark to go out and check.
- The pw should be 15% to 25% of your loaded weight...therefore, if your loaded weight is 15000 rather than 16100 (do you know it will be 16100?), your pw could be as low as 2250...15% X 15000. Or if the GW was lowered to 15500, the pw could be as low as 2325.
No, I am not sure what the actual weight will be, I am just using the worst case scenario. I will just have to keep my fingers crossed.
- Don't know where your water tank is on the 2980, but I would not add weight to the water tank to reduce pw. This is advocated by some folks but is not a good idea. Adding weight to the rear tends to reduce lateral stability and increases the possibility of the tail wagging the dog, especially in a short bed truck (don't know what yours is).
I am trying to figure out what the numbers will be for the BS and am not concerned any more about 2980 as it's a trade in. I will not use the water tank to shift weight aft, we will travel with about a 1/4 full at the max. My truck is a full size bed, single wheel
- I don't know your GCWR either, but since your GVWR and tow ratings are similar to the SRW GM one ton, I'd think your GCWR would be similar...22000. FWIW, the 2006 Dodge brochure shows no tow ratings of 16400...what equipment do you have...4 wd, 2wd, axle ratio, cab style, etc?
Our baby is a 2004 Dodge Ram 3500 4X4 Quad cab SLT with 5.9 HO Cummins Turbo Diesel, 4 speed automatic trans 48RE. axle front 9.25, axle rear 11.50 (not sure what that means)
- Using your numbers, the truck would weigh 10740 and the trailer would weigh 12900 (16100 - the 3200 in the truck bed), giving you a GCW of 23640. To double check those numbers, take the ready to tow truck weight of 7540 and add the loaded trailer weight of 16100 = 23640.
- I think that will exceed your GCWR...my GCWR for the dually is 23500.
Looks right to me but I guess will have to wait and see what the actual weights are. Will have to make it work.

Looks like the age old problem of too much trailer or too little truck.
Thanks again for all your help. When the new rig gets here I will get it weighted and then go from there.

[c5racer]

Maybe this will help.
3500 SLT 4X4 Quad Cab
GCWR 23,000
Towing capacity, 8ft box 15,400, 6.25ft box 15,900
GVWR 8ft box 12,200, 6.25 box 9,900

[rldriver]

quote:Originally posted by c5racer

Maybe this will help.
3500 SLT 4X4 Quad Cab
GCWR 23,000
Towing capacity, 8ft box 15,400, 6.25ft box 15,900
GVWR 8ft box 12,200, 6.25 box 9,900

Thanks for your reply, your numbers are interesting, where did you get them?

Here is what I have on the door label for my truck with a 8' bed.
GVWR is listed as 9,900, I like your number of 12,200
GAWR front is listed as 5,200
GAWR rear is listed as 6,150
GCWR can not find a listing
Towing capacity is listed on the Dodge web site as 16,400

[rldriver]

Bill Frisby, thanks for your input, my truck is an 8'bed. It looks like I wait until the BS comes in and I get some actual weights. I could be okay if I keep the weight of the added items down.

I will post all the weights when I get the unit.

Thanks again to every body for your assistance.

[c5racer]

I got my numbers from Dodge, but I don't think the GVWR is correct, my dually is 11,500.
This should be better info.
http://dodgeram.info/2004/load-tow/3500SRW.html

[Cat320]

quote:Originally posted by c5racer

I got my numbers from Dodge, but I don't think the GVWR is correct, my dually is 11,500.
This should be better info.
http://dodgeram.info/2004/load-tow/3500SRW.html

Most of those chart weights look pretty good. The 'curb' weight is not accurate...as listed it will be much lighter than the actual weight of the truck...at least that's the way it is with GM, I'd think Dodge and Ford would be the same. To find your empty weight...take the total cargo you can carry off the sticker on the left rear door and subtract that number from the GVWR off the sticker on the driver's door.

[David and Jo-Anna]

Dick--the 16,100# weight figure you are using for the Big Sky is the max GVWR number. Just because Keystone greatly increased the capability of the Big Sky to carry more cargo is no reason to assume that you will put so much gear in it that you will reach that max GVWR. It would take a huge amount of cargo to use up the 3500# of cargo capacity of the Big Sky.

I suggest you just wait until you get your Big Sky, put your stuff in it, then weigh it and see whether you are over or under your GVWR and axle ratings for the truck. Only if you exceed the ratings do you need to start making decisions about whether to dump some cargo, get a bigger truck, and/or just live with being somewhat over the ratings and accept that risk--everyone has to make their own judgments in this arena.

By the way, what's the latest info on when you are getting your Big Sky? And have you picked your color scheme yet?

[rldriver]

quote:Originally posted by David and Jo-Anna

Dick--the 16,100# weight figure you are using for the Big Sky is the max GVWR number. Just because Keystone greatly increased the capability of the Big Sky to carry more cargo is no reason to assume that you will put so much gear in it that you will reach that max GVWR. It would take a huge amount of cargo to use up the 3500# of cargo capacity of the Big Sky.

I suggest you just wait until you get your Big Sky, put your stuff in it, then weigh it and see whether you are over or under your GVWR and axle ratings for the truck. Only if you exceed the ratings do you need to start making decisions about whether to dump some cargo, get a bigger truck, and/or just live with being somewhat over the ratings and accept that risk--everyone has to make their own judgments in this arena.

By the way, what's the latest info on when you are getting your Big Sky? And have you picked your color scheme yet?

Thanks Dave and I agree 100%. I just wanted to run the numbers to see what the worst case would be. If going full time I don't think we will come close to the max unless we add the W/D. Also I am going to stick with my 16K Reese hitch for a while.

The BS we are going to look at Saturday is Twilight Meadow (must be green)and not the Golden Vista. We have not picked our colors yet and I can not get a delivery date from my dealer. Very frustrating

[Wrenchtraveller]

Dick, you can't call a beautiful coach like a Big Sky a "BS" LOL

[rldriver]

quote:Originally posted by Wrenchtraveller

Dick, you can't call a beautiful coach like a Big Sky a "BS" LOL

Wrenchtraveller, how callus of me, please forgive my lapse of common sense. Please forgive me, now I need to come up with a new name for our future home, how about Beautiful Sky. LOL

[Bill and Lisa]

I believe I have a weight problem.
tow vehicle is a 2001 Chevy 2500 Crew Cab D/A.
Door Data
GVWR = 9,200#
F GAWR = 4,670#
R GAWR = 6,084#

Weighted the truck at the scales alone and got
GW = 7,540# (cargo capacity = 1,660#)
FA = 4,260#
RA = 3,280#

Montana - 2007 3000RK, loaded for camping, full propane, FW at 2/3, holding tanks empty.
Revised sticker data -
GVWR = 14,160#
GAWR = 6,000# each

Readings from the scales with the trailer attached:
FA = 4,340# (under max by 330#)
RA = 6,080# (under max by 4#)
Trailer = 9,440# (under axle wt limit by 2,560# with 6K axles)
Total Gross = 19,860# (under GCWR by 2,140#)

(my hitch is 2" forward of the rear axle and indeed some of the load was placed on the FA! 4,260#--> 4,340#)

Calculations:

Total Trailer weight = 12,320# (under trailer GVWR by 1,840#)
(subtracting the truck alone from the Total Gross)

Pin Weight = 2,880# (23.4% of trailer weight)
(loaded FA+RA - truck alone weight) (4340+6080-7540)

Loaded Truck GVW = 10,420 (EXCEEDS GVWR by 1,220#)
(FA+RA loaded)

One caveat is that the truck ratings are based upon 245/75 tires and I am running 265/75 tires... Will this make a difference?

Does adding airbags or upgraded shocks change the GVWR?

Other than that I am looking at the following to lower the Pin Weight which will lower the overall GVW:
1. carry little to no water in the FW tank (forward of the axles)
2. remove my Kipor 3000KW generator from the truck bed (aft of the rear axle) unless I am going to be dry camping (was included in truck only weights)
3. Relocate or remove heavy items from the front storage and basement areas. Store aft of the rear axles if possible or leave home.
4. Install planned sewer hose tubes aft of the axles instead of under the basement.

Other ideas?

another question: Since I have a short bed I have been considering a pin box extension to give me a better turning radius. Will this increase the pin weight due to the increased pivot arm distance from the trailer axles?

Thanks for your help
Bill

[bncinwv]

Bill,

Applying simple math if you take out the generator weight, and leave the water out, in order for this to help (assuming you have 70 gal FW tank) 2/3 tank = approx. 47 gals at 7.5 #/gal = 350 pounds. Therefore your generator will have to weigh 870 pounds for it to help if all the water weight was going to the pin. If it is halfway from the axles to the pin this would be 175 pounds transferred which in turn would make your generator have to weigh 1045 pounds to help you. Counterbalancing other loads may help but you would have to move a lot of weight. Sounds like you may need extra-spring or air-bag assistance, but I will let the truck gurus tell you that. If the tires have a higher weight rating, then all that needs checked is the rear axle/spring capacity on the truck. I firmly believe (as an engineer) that all of these guidelines have a safety factor (common engineering practice) built in. Acceptable minimum safety factors for most designs (I am not an auto engineer) usually range about 30 -50%. Along that line you are 13% over. To me, that is not out of MY comfort zone. I emphasize that this is my opinion only and is not meant to be a professional assessment of your situation. I will leave that to others.
Bingo

[Wrenchtraveller]

Does adding airbags or upgraded shocks change the GVWR?

This will increase your truck's ability to handle extra weight and in a perfect world, it should increase your truck's GVWR but in our flawed world, the GVWR is placed on the truck by the manufacturer and there is no way to change a vehicle's rating.
That is why people that keep saying an F250 is the same truck as an F350 are completely wrong.
They can be completely identical in every way but the F350 has a higher GVWR. This is Ford's law and the Dept. of Transportation's law.

another question: Since I have a short bed I have been considering a pin box extension to give me a better turning radius. Will this increase the pin weight due to the increased pivot arm distance from the trailer axles?

This is an interesting question and in practise, the longer a lever is, the less lift is required to move something. I know I can lift a lot more with my 6' pry bar than my 3' pry bar.
This means that an extended pin box should reduce your pin weight but I am not sure by how much and it would make an interesting experiment.

[Bill and Lisa]

Bingo,
Thanks for the response. The generator probably only weighs about 80 lbs - that's the bad news. Good news is since it is in the bed of the truck, leaving it home should result in all 80 lbs being reflected in the weight of the truck and all of it from the rear axle.

The water on the other hand is forward of the trailer axles, 1/3 of the way to the king pin so I would only expect it to reduce the pin weight by 100 lbs.

I don't expect to find any one change I can make that will get me back in limits all by itself. So even at 80 lbs, removing the generator will do me "some" good. It would do me alot more good if I could mount it off the rear of the monty as someone else has done, then it would help counter balance some of the pin weight in addition to the loss of weight in the truck bed!

Like the tires themselves I am not sure how and extra leaf or airbags would affect the actual physical limit GVWR (vice the stock number provided by GM which will not change no matter what I add to the truck). IF the tires are the limiting component bigger tires would help. If the suspension is the limiting component, springs would help. Since the axle limits add up to more than 9200 it appears the axles are not the limiting component....it helps to narrow down what could be the limiting component but not having lots of money I would like to choose the solution with the biggest bang for the buck. Since my air dam frame limits my turning radius even more than the back of the cab itself maybe I will add the extension and make the other changes and re-weigh and see where I stand.

Bill

[Cyrus]

I have been confused by all the discussion on truck towing weights etc. I bought my truck with the intent of pulling a trailer and the salesman and the brochure indicated to me that if I didn’t get dual rear wheels there was no difference. I just looked at the title for my truck: 2005 F250 Diesel SRW 4x4 Crew Cab with a 10,000 GVWR per the title.

I am looking at the Ford brochure for 2005 and the line for 5th wheel max load for an automatic 6.0L Diesel has a GCWR of 23,000 and the rating for my F250 or a F350 is identical at 15,400. The only time the ratings are different is for an F350 DRW 4x4 has a GCWR of 23,500 and loaded trailer weight went to 15,600.

The way I read it is the only way a F350 will pull or carry more then the F250 is with dual wheels on the F350 gains 500 on the GCWR and a whapping 200 lbs on the max loaded trailer weight per the Ford brochure. For a 5th wheel the brochure recommends a pin weight of 15-25% of the total loaded trailer weight.

Where does all this fit into he conversation?