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Old 08-18-2006, 09:25 PM   #41
dsprik
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I believe the Arctic Package does help in sound insulation. However, there is a big difference between single pane windows and dual pane windows in both sound and thermal insualtion. My circumstances make these both high prioritites for me. I am a light sleeper. I know some, when sleeping, would not hear a dump truck driving through a nitro glycerin factory. Others, don't really care if it's 80 degrees or 50 degrees inside their camper.

I have been in Class Cs and Class As (all with single pane). There is a noticeable marked difference in the amount of CG noise that is blocked out. Not all attributable to Arctic insulation...

I am very happy with my choice right now. Maybe that will change later...

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Old 08-18-2006, 11:04 PM   #42
Montana Sky
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Dave,
If you would not mind, I would sure like to take a listen to the difference between our windows. =)


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Old 08-19-2006, 04:54 AM   #43
dsprik
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Great! We'll have our chance to compare at the Rally. We are really looking forward to National Rally.

I am curious, though now... Any engineers out there? I know there are. What is the pure R value difference and db difference between glass and glass/N2/glass? There have to studies on this, no?

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Old 08-19-2006, 06:05 AM   #44
sreigle
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We hear neighbors slamming doors and conversations between our rigs. Our vents are closed most always. The one rig with dual panes I recall being inside was eerily quiet. I would like that. Many rv parks seem to be near railroad tracks. Dual panes would help with that noise, too, I would think.

The weight issue for me is not carrying capacity since after some research I'm convinced the brochure and sticker numbers are not very realistic because of how they are calculated. For me the weight issue is total rig weight. That's just me, though. I want to stay under the truck's GCWR and with the current rig we're under that by just 80 pounds.

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Old 08-19-2006, 12:38 PM   #45
Cat320
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Parrothead stated "We don't have the dual panes and since we don't plan on spending time in heat or cold, don't miss them."

Same here...if it's too hot, or too cold the DW will not go.
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Old 08-19-2006, 04:40 PM   #46
Parrothead
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Steve
I'll br anxious to know if you think your new 07 is quieter than your 03. I'm just thinking maybe there has been some improvements. We didn't hear the trains except when outside at Flagstaff or Williams and we were close but not right next to the tracks.
Happy trails...........................

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Hemet California

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Old 08-19-2006, 05:58 PM   #47
David and Jo-Anna
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Dave S--R value?? db difference?? reminds me why I decided to give up being an engineer and become a ....--OOPS, I'm not supposed to say until after you ply me with lots of alcohol at the rally!! LOL!!!

I'd also like to hear the difference between the single and dual pane windows to see how much noise insulation they provide. We'll have to rig up a scientific test--maybe Steve and Sue singing outside each rig while the rest of us sit inside drinking Dave's beer. Any takers? LOL!!!!

David and Jo-Anna Kikel
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Old 08-19-2006, 06:46 PM   #48
sreigle
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You won't catch me singing anywhere in public but we could do a conversational test. I also would like to hear the difference.

Sue, the R values are the same if I recall the numbers correctly. Ours is relatively quiet but we do hear conversations going on next to our rig, etc. At least we hear that a conversation is going on even though we can't make out the words all the time. By the way, inside conversations can sometimes be heard by someone closeby outside, too. Have to be careful about that.

See another Montana or Mountaineer on the road? Flash lights twice, it might be one of us!
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Old 08-19-2006, 09:22 PM   #49
Parrothead
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Steve
What kind f conversations are you talking about?
Happy trails.........................

Sue and Ed Rowe
Hemet California

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Old 08-19-2006, 10:48 PM   #50
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Old 08-20-2006, 03:36 AM   #51
richfaa
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I am not any kind of a engineer..but this might help.

http://www.soundproofwindows.com/technical.html

STC Ratings
What is an STC Rating?
STC stands for Sound Transmission Class.

Basically, STC ratings are an established way to average how much sound is stopped by something. STC ratings are used for windows, doors, walls and most building materials. For windows, STC ratings range from 18 to 50.

STC ratings are the ONLY way to accurately compare various noise reduction products. An STC rating is an instrument measurement of how much noise is stopped. The STC ratings allow accurate 'apple to apple' comparisons.

The STC rating is the average amount of noise stopped at 18 different frequencies, measured in decibels. STC ratings are a logarithmic scale similar to the earthquake Richter Scale, which means each number is significantly higher than the one before.
What STC Ratings do Windows Have?
For single pane windows, the STC Rating is most likely between 20 and 27. The difference is the glass thickness and how air-tight the window is. Louvered windows can be less than STC rating 18 in many cases.
STC Rating Values, Noise Reduction
The table below shows typical window STC rating values for single pane windows and dual pane windows, and the resulting STC rating when Soundproof Windows are installed over both single pane windows and dual pane windows.

Window Glass Normal STC Range Typical Value
Single pane glass 25-28 27
Dual pane glass 28-35 30
Soundproof Window over a single pane window 41-46 42
Soundproof Window over a dual pane window 41-53 46

The STC Ratings for double paned windows usually vary from 28 to 35. Most have good air seals, but the variation is due to the glass thickness and the amount of air space between the glass. The bigger air space and thicker glass is preferred.

Soundproof Windows range from 41 to 51 (with more possible), which varies depending on the existing window and the air space. Over a single-paned window in a standard wall, the STC rating is 41. Over double paned windows, the STC rating is 45 or more. With increases of air space, figures greater than 50 are easily achieved.


Why the STC Rating Numbers are so Close in Value
STC rating measurement uses a special scale like the Richter Scale for earthquakes. An increase from 28 to 38 means 90% of the noise is reduced. A change from 28 to 43 represents a noise reduction of over 95%. Small increases can mean a lot of extra noise reduction. The increase from 38 to 43 mentioned above does not sound like much (90% versus 95+% in reductions) - but going from 90% to over 95% means that 60% of the remaining noise was removed; every number represents a large amount of noise.


Use of STC for Noise Reduction Comparisons
Using STC ratings bases noise on measurable facts, not opinions. The higher the STC, the more sound is stopped; each point is significant and important.


Dual Pane Windows will not Stop Noise
When good, thick dual pane windows rated at STC 35 are installed (replaced existing single pane windows with STC 27), the sound will not be reduced much.

Often, until the STC rating is up in the 40's, the noise is not reduced enough to stop it from being a significant problem. The human ear becomes more sensitive to sound as the volume reduces, so in many cases, more significant noise reductions are necessary to resolve the problem.


100% Noise Reduction?
While Soundproof Windows cannot elminate 100% of the noise, it will be reduced very significantly. Less noise will be coming through the Soundproof Windows than the walls in many cases. Most walls are an STC 42-43: Soundproof Windows usually have an STC rating of 41-45. Several things can be done to increase the STC rating even more.

Contact us for a free evaluation of your situation today!












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Old 08-20-2006, 07:06 AM   #52
Parrothead
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Rich
Way more than I wanted to know! LOL Especially when I'm only half way through my first cup of java.
Happy trails.........................

Sue and Ed Rowe
Hemet California

2005 3400RL
2006 GMC 3500 Dually, D/A, Crew Cab, Long Bed
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Old 08-20-2006, 10:31 AM   #53
sreigle
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Sue, Vicki just told me you and Ed will be at the rally. Great!

I've been outside our rig, talking with a neighbor, and when I came inside Vicki asked me who I was talking to. If the AC or furnace are running then you don't hear that.

Awhile back we walked down to introduce ourselves to some folks in another rig. Just outside their door we realized they were having a serious disagreement. We left without knocking.

on edit - Vicki just read this post and says the only time she hears me talking outside is when I'm just outside where she happens to be in the Montana. So maybe it's not as big a deal as I thought.

See another Montana or Mountaineer on the road? Flash lights twice, it might be one of us!
Steve Reigle (pronounced Regal)
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'03 3295RK
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Old 08-22-2006, 08:41 AM   #54
Bob & Lee
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Are the dual pane the deep tint as the single pane ? and are you still able to open the windows as the single pane ?

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Old 08-22-2006, 12:46 PM   #55
JH Sechelt
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Hi Bob & Lee,

I'm not sure how tinted single pane windows are, but our dual pane are fairly tinted.
Most our windows are side ways sliders, some ( Like the big living room window on the back ) only have small
sliders on the bottom.

J&D




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Old 08-22-2006, 02:49 PM   #56
dsprik
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All my dual panes open. No problem. Wife says the windows are tinted. I love em.

Thought I read on the forum last year that dual pane windows DIDN'T open???

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Old 08-22-2006, 04:37 PM   #57
Montana Sky
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The dual pane windows are tinted, although they are not as dark as the single pane.

I got this today from a trusted source from Keystone. The R-value is less than 2 between the single and dual pane windows. Dual pane windows provide a much better sound insulation compared to the single pane. Their quote was "if you want less sound in your coach, go w/ the dual pane. Be ready for the trade off, weight and cost." "Not much better than single pane as far as temp control goes."

Thought I would pass that along.


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Old 08-22-2006, 05:47 PM   #58
dsprik
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Dave, maybe the single pane glass is thicker than the dual pane glass, which would make sense. Darker tinting (at the mfr) may also impact the difference in R value.

Still less propane, less electric (for A/C) if paying for the meter, less sound. Also the more glass surface area in the coach the bigger the difference an R value of 2 is going to make in the overall insulation of the coach. The 3400 seems fairly liberal with their windows...

I'm very happy with all aspects of my dual panes. Next test is to start bouncing them down the road to see if they leak...

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Old 08-22-2006, 06:03 PM   #59
Montana Sky
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I am not trying to say one is better than the other, I am just providing the facts I got today.

I am going to try and recall the numbers today. Numbers should be close..
The reason no real gain as far as R-value goes is because the lack of "dead air space" between the panes. In a standard Home dual pane window there is 5/8's of an inch of space between each pane, in the RV dual pane window there is 1/8th of an inch. With the panes being closer together, there is more transfer of cold/hot air between the panes. Thus making the R value almost "unmeasureable".

For those of us w/ single pane windows, the suggestions I got today to help keep our coach cool was have window awnings installed, also the slide room awnings help keep heat off the slide roofs. These two options would have better "benefit" from the summer heat, and weigh less than dual pane windows. Again, just passing along the info from today.

Dave, I look forward to hearing how your coach and windows do this coming winter. I know your 07 is supposed to be good to 0 degrees. Your thoughts/opinions will be appreciated...


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Old 08-22-2006, 06:45 PM   #60
dsprik
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Don't tell Cheryl I'm thinking of trying out this "cold weather camping" stuff.

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