Pin Weight and Payload & Camper Cert.

[seahunter]

Hi,

For what it's worth, I thought I would post this. I got the camper certification for the F-350 DRW we just got, and the maximum allowable weight is 3,727 pounds and the maximum vehicle weight is 13,300. Truck is about 9,000 pounds. I guess I am still confused because this is the highest payload version, even more than the F-450 (due to it's added weight). The brochure states a payload of 5,990 for the Crew Cab 4X4 Long Bed diesel DRW. I'm new to all this weight stuff, but where is the "missing" weight capacity?? Is payload different than the way they figure allowable weight for a camper? After gear and hitch, and depending on what percentage you estimate for pin weight, it seems like even with a DRW diesel, I am right near the maximum for towing a 15,500 pound Montana or am I missing something? Twenty percent of 15,500 would be 3,100 pounds so it's within capacity but not by much. The towing capacity is 21,500 so I am fine there, but am I looking at this right that I am close for maximum pin weight? Just concerned because I have the living room up front and don't know if that is more or less weight than if it was the bedroom.

Thanks for any comments, much appreciated!

Greg

[tracyclifton]

Looks like the most your truck can weigh is 13,300(GVWR). You need to weigh the truck with everything on board that you would have when towing. Then subtract that weight from the 13,300. For me my GVWR is 11,500. The truck weighs 8,080 (certified scales)ready to go. That leaves 3420. Subtract 580 for occupants weight, that leaves 2840 for pin weight and whatever I put in the back. My claimed pin weight is 1940 but its probably closer to 2200 (haven't used the 5er yet so haven't weighed it, my old 5er was 2100 actual weight). If my math is right that leaves about 600 pounds for what goes in the back of the truck, usually 2 bikes at 30lbs each and my 20lb bike rack. So, all that said I should be under GVWR by 500lbs or so. Also I'm sure you would be under the rear axel rating.

[Phil P]

Hi

I have many years working with truck weights.

When we started looking at purchasing a 5th wheel trailer I did a lot of research in the subject of weight capacities.

When you user a 5th wheel type hitch that is installed in accordance with the vehicle manufacturers specifications you no longer use the TV gross weight rating.

The only vehicle I now have any documentation to verify this is our 2009 Duramax 3500.

The weights you want to use when towing with the 5th wheel is the gross combination weight rating and the axel weight ratings.

With a properly installed 5th wheel hitch you will not exceed any weight limitations of the TV or the trailer as long as you don’t exceed any axel rating or the gross combination weight rating.

Our 3500 has a gross combination rating of 23,500 lbs. I spent several hours on a truck scale to verify this. When our rig reaches 23,500 lbs I am within all axel ratings the pin weight rating and at the maximum front axel weight. All other axels are less than their rated capacity.

Due to the weight of the items carried in the truck I cant legally pull the Montana at its gross weight rating. By unloading the TV and putting that weight in the trailer I still didn’t exceed any axel weight rating or the trailer gross weight rating and the front axel only got lighter by about 80 lbs.

The result of all of this is if I don’t exceed my front axel rating I will not exceed any of the weight limits for the TV or the Montana.

Phil P

[lasater]

My understanding is that you have to read the capacity data very carefully because there are different capacities for a trailer towed by the receiver hitch and a 5th wheel towed by a hitch placed in front of the rear axle.

If you use the pin weight as the number for your payload and then (after subtracting that weight from the total weight of the Monty) use the remaining weight of the Monty, you should easily be within the weight limits for you F-350.

My Dodge 3500 DRW has a 5th wheel capacity of 17,000 (total weight) but can only pull 13,XXX in a travel or cargo trailer.

Go figure

[1retired06]

Living room upstairs with double slides usually means heavier pin weight. The camper certification described sure has me confused. Glad we dont have to through that process in our state.

[CORattler]

A good discussion. Lots of experienced folks around here that have been at this much longer than me.
Subscribed.

[southern thunder]

This is vey confusing to me. I still don't know where my rig stands on weight. I didn't want to push the limits of the truck. I know there are people on here that pull bigger 5'ers with about the same truck. I hope i'm good to go.

[Lee F.]

Try this link to see the actual towing guide from Ford. It differentiates between standard and fifth wheel limits.
http://www.ford.com/resources/ford/g...erDtyNov18.pdf

[richfaa]

Ok, I will try. My Ford is very similar to yours but a 08.
From the sticker on the door, Drivers side.

GVWR 13k..That is the MAX the truck can weigh fully loaded.

CC (carry capacity_. that is the MAX load you can put IN the truck.CC is included in the GVWR,,Got that?? MY listed CC is 4268lbs on the sticker.

Front axle 6K..Rear axle 9K.Note that exceeds the 13K GVWR..That means the max weight you can put on the individual axles WITHOUT exceeding the GVWR.

Wait what happend to PIN WEIGHT. Well PIN WEIGHT is part of the carry capacity (CC) since it is carried IN the truck.

Well lets find out what the REAL Carry capacity of the truck is.

My truck weighs 9,315 lbs ready to tow,Me, Wife, Bird, Full fuel, Hitch, baloney sandwhich everything that is in the truck...everything.

Subtract 9,315lbs from the GVWVR 13K and you get 3685 the REAL Carry capacity is 3685. Hey but it said 4268 what happened.. well 583 lbs of stuff in the truck.

The real pin weight of this 3400 at the fall rally was 2700 lbs..My Real CC is 3685..remember the pin weight is IN the truck..we are good.

My guess is so are you.

[bncinwv]

quote:Originally posted by 1retired06

Living room upstairs with double slides usually means heavier pin weight.

I don't think this necessarily applies to the 3750. The front slides are electric slides, not hydraulic and none of the bottom heavy slide mechanism is present on these slides. I think the only way you will know the actual pin weight (particularly so with the genny in the front) is to go to a scale and have the truck weighed in progressive manner that allows you to actually calculate the pin weight. There are previous posts that will give you guidance unless someone else chips in.
Bingo

[Fire5er]

You can’t go by the Ford brochure info or even the annual Trailer Life Tow ratings pamphlet. Why, because each truck and each 5er is individually loaded with options, and these options add weight to the basic weights listed in the manufactures' brochures. Then we go and add and remove items from the truck or 5er such as adding generator(s), front AC unit, washer/dryer unit, truck bed tool box full of tools, etc…; or remove the tailgate from the truck and use only a net.
Rich (richfaa)broke it down for you and he is spot on. The only way to find those weights for your individual truck and 5er combination is to get the numbers from your truck and 5er, load each the truck and 5er as you would for the normal trips you make , and then head to a certified scale. The numbers don’t lie, unfortunately salesmen do and will.

[HPRUM2000]

I was reading this post and thinking the same as Fire5er .We have A 3750fl our carrying cap.is 3340lbs..We have no add ons like autolevlers,extra A.C Gen. washer dryer double pain windows etc.if we add these things I would think we would lose Quite a bit of our carrying cap.and would really have to consider the wieghts of these add ons to stay within our gtw of 15,680. was wondering if others have considered this when doing so thanks Jane+Guy Harvey bella5 .lb. copilot2011 dodge dually L.H 2011 3750fl

[CamillaMichael]

quote:Originally posted by Fire5er

You can’t go by the Ford brochure info or even the annual Trailer Life Tow ratings pamphlet. Why, because each truck and each 5er is individually loaded with options, and these options add weight to the basic weights listed in the manufactures' brochures. Then we go and add and remove items from the truck or 5er such as adding generator(s), front AC unit, washer/dryer unit, truck bed tool box full of tools, etc…; or remove the tailgate from the truck and use only a net.
Rich (richfaa)broke it down for you and he is spot on. The only way to find those weights for your individual truck and 5er combination is to get the numbers from your truck and 5er, load each the truck and 5er as you would for the normal trips you make , and then head to a certified scale. The numbers don’t lie, unfortunately salesmen do and will.

"Don't know about the "lie" part, but I have yet to deal with a truck sales person who had a clue about what the truck weight capacities were for the truck in question. As previously pointed out, every individual truck/trailer combo is going to vary...YOU MUST deal with the numbers stated on the stickers attached to YOUR combo. Unless your truck was delivered without the tow package, can't imagine you would have trouble towing any Montana...unless you grossly overloaded your Montana.

[bncinwv]

With the layout of the 3750, the washer and dryer have no impact on the pin weight since they sit over top of the axle assemblies. An additional AC is added to the bedroom typically which would actually decrease your pin weight slightly (3750 has BR in the rear, this would be the opposite on front BR models). Think of a teeter-totter or see-saw for instance and that is what you have more-or-less with the fifth wheel, therefore additional weight to the pin has to come from items towards the front of the rig (ahead of the axles assemblies). It is actually possible to decrease your pin weight by moving items in the front of the rig to the rear, and can also be somewhat accomplished by adding water to the fresh water tank since they are usually on the rear of the rig. The only things that would increase the pin weight and cause you to lower the CC of the truck would be those items that would be added to the front of the rig (generator, goodies added to the basement area, extra weight in battery compartment, etc.). I would think that double pane windows would be a wash since there are windows in the front of the rig as well as the rear but would have to calculate the total window area to know that for sure. Granted the actual weight influence on the pin is a little more complicated than just knowing the weight of what you are adding to the rig, (insert long dissertation here on levers, geometry and physics.......).
Bingo

[HPRUM2000]

thanks bingo that makes sense. Jane+Guy Harvey +Bella 5lb co pilot 2011 3750fl 2011dodgeduallyl.h

[richfaa]

The salesman can look at the same numbers you can look at but the salesman can not know the real numbers. He is not telling a lie he just can not know.Way to many variables as stated above.

It has been our experience in selling rv's for a few years that the most uninformed person is the buyer.

[pineranch]

Greg,
You will find after you do all the research and get on a scale, your weight is fine. Just think of all those out there towing a 3750 with a 3/4 ton truck. Something tells me they just might be a bit over the edge on pin and GCWR, I know I was towing a 3605 with an F-250.
It turns out, weight is just in the eye of the beholder.
Mike

[seahunter]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Ok, I will try. My Ford is very similar to yours but a 08.
From the sticker on the door, Drivers side.

GVWR 13k..That is the MAX the truck can weigh fully loaded.

CC (carry capacity_. that is the MAX load you can put IN the truck.CC is included in the GVWR,,Got that?? MY listed CC is 4268lbs on the sticker.

Front axle 6K..Rear axle 9K.Note that exceeds the 13K GVWR..That means the max weight you can put on the individual axles WITHOUT exceeding the GVWR.

Wait what happend to PIN WEIGHT. Well PIN WEIGHT is part of the carry capacity (CC) since it is carried IN the truck.

Well lets find out what the REAL Carry capacity of the truck is.

My truck weighs 9,315 lbs ready to tow,Me, Wife, Bird, Full fuel, Hitch, baloney sandwhich everything that is in the truck...everything.

Subtract 9,315lbs from the GVWVR 13K and you get 3685 the REAL Carry capacity is 3685. Hey but it said 4268 what happened.. well 583 lbs of stuff in the truck.

The real pin weight of this 3400 at the fall rally was 2700 lbs..My Real CC is 3685..remember the pin weight is IN the truck..we are good.

My guess is so are you.

Thanks Rich, very well explained! I guess what still has me confused is the stated payload for my truck (brochure) is 5,990 pounds so I thought I had a huge buffer for being in capacity specifications for pin weight. I just don't know where they get that number if your gross is 13,300 pounds minus 9,000+ for the truck, the CCC is clearly only going to be 4,300 pounds or less. Why do they say 6,000 pounds payload capacity?

[seahunter]

quote:Originally posted by HPRUM2000

I was reading this post and thinking the same as Fire5er .We have A 3750fl our carrying cap.is 3340lbs..We have no add ons like autolevlers,extra A.C Gen. washer dryer double pain windows etc.if we add these things I would think we would lose Quite a bit of our carrying cap.and would really have to consider the wieghts of these add ons to stay within our gtw of 15,680. was wondering if others have considered this when doing so thanks Jane+Guy Harvey bella5 .lb. copilot2011 dodge dually L.H 2011 3750fl

Good point on cargo capacity. We have reduced ours a lot with the generator, 2nd AC, Level-Up, dual pane windows, etc. I am very anxious to get ours to a scale and see what we are weighing in at.

[Chip]

We went from a 3/4ton truck to this 1ton because of weights and stability issues. Our heavy pin weight, with camper loaded to the max, brings us to the capacity of the truck even though the listed carrying capacity is much greater.


Chip