FYI Convenience Center - Montana Owners Club

Phil P · 07-14-2011, 06:18 AM

Hello

This is just some information the folk’s here mite want.

Our 5th wheel has all of the water connections, 2 of the waste tank dump handles and the cable TV connection located behind the basement door on the drivers side of the trailer. This cluster of valves and handles appear to be in a watertight enclosure with a drain in the bottom and screw in plugs to close the drain top and bottom.

For those that have this arrangement you may want to take a close look at the water valve, water connections and the drain where they are mounted to make sure Keystone caulked them to make them water tight.

Phil P

dieselguy · 07-14-2011, 06:37 AM

It's by no means water tight ... as soon as the water gets over about an inch deep below all the valving and connections, it spills right out into the cargo bay. The compartment and the cargo door do not seal to one another.

Another issue I have with the way the water hoses and cableing come into the compartment from the bottom ... almost impossible to seal. Insects crawl up the hoses and on into the cargo bay. I'm getting to where I stuff a rag around the water hose and spray insect repellent around where the hoses and cableing lay on the ground.

Ozz · 07-15-2011, 03:08 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by dieselguy

It's by no means water tight ... as soon as the water gets over about an inch deep below all the valving and connections, it spills right out into the cargo bay. The compartment and the cargo door do not seal to one another.

Another issue I have with the way the water hoses and cableing come into the compartment from the bottom ... almost impossible to seal. Insects crawl up the hoses and on into the cargo bay. I'm getting to where I stuff a rag around the water hose and spray insect repellent around where the hoses and cableing lay on the ground.

Ditto on the rags, I soak them with bug killer..

bncinwv · 07-15-2011, 03:15 AM

Someone had a post on a device to close out the convenience center opening that had openings for the tv cable and the water hose. Seems like they saw it at a rally. I had plans at one time on making one out of wood to accomplish the same thing. (Two wooden disks with long bolts or similar to work in a clamping fashion from top to bottom and separated to allow for the hoses). More thought has yielded a possibility of having some kind of sealed openings in the provided plastic caps that would allow for the same thing?? Get to work Ozz, and let us know how to git-r-dun!!!

Bingo

Phil P · 08-16-2011, 01:03 PM

Hello

I posted this in a very short format because Keystone had insisted I take the unit to their dealer and have them do an estimate and determination of the cause of the water intrusion that caused the basement floor to rot.

Keystone did not caulk the shower enclosure where it meets the tub, did not glue the waste plumbing at 4 locations (the piping had been slipped together with out glue not that the glue joint failed) the cargo doors leaked, the shower drain leaked and the water hoses for the potable water system at the water center were less than hand tight.

The dealer corrected these items.

I didn’t elaborate at the time and only made the post to inform others that Keystone will let their units get out with out caulking the water center.

Now that Keystone has reviewed the report from the dealer (I paid the dealer $150 for this report) they have informed me of the following.

They informed me that the maintenance manual that comes with the unit says the owner is recommended to dissemble the unit as required to inspect and reseal all areas that have sealant.

They further informed that this requires the owner to disassemble the unit IE remove all sink drains, remove all paneling or cabinetry as needed to inspect and reseal all items that have sealant on them.

This includes the roof, shower stall, all doors, waste plumbing, water lines and the water center. The fact that the unit had been returned to the dealer (which they have a record of) many times for water leaks at the shower stall, cargo doors, waste plumbing and the water center is of no value because the owner didn’t have the unit disassembled and resealed at 3 months. I didn’t bother to inform them that the manual says 6 months. The manual that comes with the unit has on page 55 recommendation that the owner inspects all sealants for deterioration and repair as necessary every 6 months.

So this put Keystone in the position of having a way to avoid any responsibility for not building the unit correctly once it is 6 months old. Regardless of who does the work if there is deterioration do to water intrusion Keystones position is that it’s the owner responsibility after 6 months. Even thought their dealer was the last one to work on trying to stop the water leaks they maintain the manual lets them off the hook on the ground that the dealer didn’t do the job correctly.

Keystone did not caulk the water center drain or any of the water hose attach points in the water center. The manual requires the owner to be responsible to do this at 6 months and that is the end of the story as far as Keystone is concerned. The fact that the floor of the basement was soaking up water from the first time I connected a water hose to the unit and I reported this to the dealer that then reported it to Keystone to get paid for warranty has no concern to Keystone.

So today I contacted a class A builder that also builds 2 models of 5th wheel trailers. They are advent that they will not use a Lippert product on their units. They are also not complementary of Thor Industries. I have made a small deposit on a new unit so that they will send me the engineered drawings for the frame they use so my engineer can review them. Once I have made a 50% deposit they will send me the wiring and pluming diagrams they will use on the unit. They guarantee the unit will be built to the drawings provided or a revision will be made to the drawing and provided to me if some thing has to be changed.

Phil P

**DQDick** · 08-16-2011, 02:46 PM

Haven't tried it yet, but I intend to fashion a utility hole plug out of a noodle (one of the swimming pool kids toys). I'm going to try to run the hose and any wires thru the hole in the middle and trim it to fit the larger hole. Had some noodle left over from making padding for the corners of my bedroom slide so when I stand up from connecting the water and turn around and walk into the point on the slide I'm only embarrassed and not injured. Looks like it should work, just haven't tried it yet.

Dick

richfaa · 08-16-2011, 03:08 PM

"Now that Keystone has reviewed the report from the dealer (I paid the dealer $150 for this report) they have informed me of the following.

They informed me that the maintenance manual that comes with the unit says the owner is recommended to dissemble the unit as required to inspect and reseal all areas that have sealant.

They further informed that this requires the owner to disassemble the unit IE remove all sink drains, remove all paneling or cabinetry as needed to inspect and reseal all items that have sealant on them.

This includes the roof, shower stall, all doors, waste plumbing, water lines and the water center. The fact that the unit had been returned to the dealer (which they have a record of) many times for water leaks at the shower stall, cargo doors, waste plumbing and the water center is of no value because the owner didn’t have the unit disassembled and resealed at 3 months. I didn’t bother to inform them that the manual says 6 months. The manual that comes with the unit has on page 55 recommendation that the owner inspects all sealants for deterioration and repair as necessary every 6 months."

disassemble the unit??? are you serious. Who did you talk to at keystone who said that. I need to talk to him. I do not see that in my owners manual..

Crossthread · 08-16-2011, 03:37 PM

I caulked the top edge of the plastic pan in the docking center. As to the large hole where the cable/water hose comes in from the bottom, I cut a 6 inch plastic funnel lengthwise slide the hose /cable in it and slide it up as far as it will go. I hold it in place with a bungee cord. No critters in there yet, and any dripping water (if any) can still get out.
Thanks Phil for the info. Bill

HOOK · 08-16-2011, 04:03 PM

Thanks Phil, and thanks for tour help at the rally. I will be watching for updates as this evolves. I beleive you are right in your pursuit. Dealers are responsible for certain small repairs. You reported early and someone Keystone or dealer should step up. They will play the blame game for a while but if you are persistant they will realize that we are all paying attention and purchased upscale to be above that sort of adolesence. Good luck! Larry

K&Gs3400RL · 08-16-2011, 04:53 PM

I use two pieces of Foam egg crate cut in a circle with a slit half way thru them. I put one in with the slit the the left and one to the right. It has worked well for me. If they should get wet I just pull them out and squeeze them till all the water is out.

Phil P · 08-17-2011, 02:47 AM

Hi richfaa

I originally called Keystone to get some technical information so I could repair this unit myself. They were the ones that refused to give me the information until I had a dealer inspect the unit at my cost.

I talked to several people at Keystone. I have been very polite and non confrontational. They now will only communicate to me thru the dealer that made the estimate to repair and reported the problem to them.

When I made the statement that I didn’t know the water center hadn’t been caulked because I would have had to dissemble the basement wall and the floor of the water center to determine they were not caulked they referred to the maintenance manual provided with the trailer. They say I was supposed to remove the drains and the basement wall to inspect the sealant concerned. When I ask about the shower drain I was told I was responsible for dissembling the drains and making sure they were sealed every 3 months in accordance with the recommended maintenance. (these are not quotes)

Phil P

Phil P · 08-21-2011, 03:55 AM

Hear is a copy of what’s in the manual.

Page 55 of the Keystone RV Company Owners Manual.

Top of page title Seals and Adhesives

The seals and adhesives used perform an important job, keeping out an RV enemy – water. Close inspection and routine maintenance are crucial to the longevity of the trailer. While many types are used, none have a pre-set lifetime, as expositor to the elements and regional variances of climate can accelerate any sealants deterioration. Therefore, every six months, inspection of all seals is recommended and a quick inspection prior to every trip will help reduce potential problems down the road.

When inspecting, check for cracks, voids shrinkage, or any sign of deterioration. If any of these signs are noticed, have your dealer inspect and replace the sealant if necessary. It is important to use the same kind of sealant that was previously used.

This is what Keystone used to maintain that it is the owner’s responsibility to inspect and replace or repair any sealant on the trailer every 3 months. As I noted before it says 6 months.

I agree with you it doesn’t say any thing about “dissemble” of the unit and I maintain the language leads the owner to believe they are referring to external sealants only.

Just additional evidence of Keystones “strong arm” tactics.

Phi P

richfaa · 08-21-2011, 12:05 PM

Well i did not read the manual about that. But i will say that I do check for leaks and sealant deterioration a couple of times a year. last week we dis assembled the rear panel in the compartment of the 3400 checking for loose connections in the rear of the service center and elsewhere. We did find that the tape around the heating vents had dried out or was beginning to dry out and replaced that.We do have to disassemble the panels under the tub to take a look under there and we do have to remove the vacuum to check behind the water heater for leaks or anything starting to come loose. We do check for dried out or missing caulking everywhere. There are a lot of things that should be checked on a regular basis and some of that may require some dis assembly. We consider all of this good preventative maintenance.

Phil P · 08-21-2011, 03:34 PM

Hi

No question about that. I had the trailer back to the selling dealer at least every 90 days for repair work until September of 2010. They had these areas apart at that time. Keystone says we are responsible to determine the dealer did the work properly.

My main point is the manual says “Check for cracks, voids shrinkage, or any sign of deterioration.” I don’t see where this makes anyone other than Keystone responsible to do the initial caulking.

At any rate by the manual we are not responsible to do this inspection until 6 months. In 6 months the damage was all ready done. The wood had been soaking up water during the entire 6 months. I had reported the water leaks in this area and the dealer had filed warranty for repairing the water leaks with Keystone. Unfortunately the type of damage is not readily detectable because of the time it takes for rot to progress to the point it is apparent.

So the bottom line is. I got a LEMON from Keystone and unfortunately I got a LEMON dealer as well.

Last but not least. In the 50 years I have been involved in the manufacturing business as either a dealer or distributor I have observed the following.

When a manufacturer reaches the point they think in their minds that they are number one they become overbearing. They initiated daily production quotas, yearly quotas for the distributor and dealer network. They reach a point where they think they are total dictators and invincible.

I watched two manufactures that combined were so much bigger than Thor Industries that they did in one day the total amount of sales Thor does in a year. These two companies produced 80% of the world production of the product they produced. By the late 80’s and early 90’s they both were in receivership. One of them survived only because an investment group bought them out of receivership and laid off most all of the management and replace them with management that had the end user in the center of their vision. The other one was not so lucky and while the name still exists they will never have a large portion of the market again.

Phil P

richfaa · 08-22-2011, 04:46 AM

There is much truth in what you say.I did quality programs for several years so don't get me started on Rv quality control. Helen is involved in the day night shade repair class at the rally as she has repaired or restrung about every one of the 9 day night shaded in our 06 3400. She worked all day yesterday doing the one at the PC desk. The shades are NOT installed per the manufacturers specifications and that is a contributing factor to the failures. They should be on brackets but they are screwed to the wall. The workmanship is sloppy. Screws improperly placed or missing. Shades not properly aligned causing failure.

The hole to access the check valve in cabinet to the rear of the shower stall is 8 inches to the right of the check valve requiring you to cut a bigger hole when replacing. The panel with the tank lights and hot water, water pump had 4 screws holding it to the wall.#3 went into the wall the 4th went nowhere as the hole was cut to large.

Examples of poor employee training and no quality control. This is the RV industry Keystone included.

We sold Rv's for a few years and toured many of the plants. We were well aware of what we would most likely get when we purchased this Montana or any other brand. We can understand the disappointment of those who were not fully aware.

Phil P · 08-22-2011, 08:01 AM

You point out my example very well. The uses of a “production quota” results in this type of improper assembly.

Some one at Keystone told me their production quota is 1 unit a day.

The manufacturer I referred to that will not ever hold a large portion of the industry again was producing equipment that only passed the production quota because the employees used portable or temporary equipment to get by the production completion requirements. In some cases removal of the temporary equipment made the unit unusable. Then it was left to the purchaser to determine whey the unit would not work.

Sooner or later this attitude catches up whith the manufacturer. It is surprising how quickly the product sales drop to a level that causes a collapse of their production system.

One Keystone forum on the Internet has two groups of posters. One marked “Keystone Issues” and one marked “Keystone Kudos”. The negative side is 3 times bigger than the plus side.

A sign of the beginning of the end.

Phil P

richfaa · 08-22-2011, 10:44 AM

Well there was a time before the economic disaster that the Montana plant was turning out 22 Montana's a day. Evey forun of every brand reads the same.Why on my Ford diesel forum the problems out weigh the positives, same with any brand.. Keystone and Montana will be around for a long time. They still build a good unit for the price..warts and all.

Phil P · 09-02-2011, 11:07 AM

Hi

I have been ill with a cold that came on the last day we were at the rally in NC. Then there are problems at the outfit I have my consulting contract with.

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Well there was a time before the economic disaster that the Montana plant was turning out 22 Montana's a day.

The Montana facility I looked ta could not produce 22 Montana’s a day because of the lack of sizes. Maybe Keystone produced 22 units at all of their plants.

Quote:

quote: Keystone and Montana will be around for a long time. They still build a good unit for the price..warts and all.

This is exactly the same expression used by a number of people when the first dealers refused to renew their dealer contracts because they wouldn’t purchase the quota. Within 2 years all distributors except the international ones were gone. 3 years the dealer network was all but non-existent.

4 or 5 years latter they stopped production with a very large inventory. After the buyout the investment company sold completed units for 10 years before starting limited production.

There were 4 divisions to this company only 2 survived.

Phil P

Ozz · 09-02-2011, 12:00 PM

Phil, sorry you are having problems with your unit and the dealer.
I like my unit, from the things I read here, many people like their units, and would own another. for the price and what you get, I think they will continue to be a good seller.
I would buy another.

Lee F. · 09-02-2011, 12:45 PM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Phil P
One Keystone forum on the Internet has two groups of posters. One marked “Keystone Issues” and one marked “Keystone Kudos”. The negative side is 3 times bigger than the plus side.

Phil P

People who have problems are far more likely to be vocal about their experience than those who have not. It's just human nature. We have owned 6 different rigs from 4 different manufacturers over the years and this Montana is the best of the bunch, and by far the best bang for the buck we have found. I'd buy another.

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