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Old 07-18-2018, 02:53 PM   #1
dlleno
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Short boxes

Yes I'm aware of sliders and other tricks to accommodate short box pickups. I'm also aware that if one is in a 90 degree jacknife situation there are other problems besides hitting the cab.

My question is about a more engineering oriented approach to the question of cab clearance: is it possible to know (and is there any consistency with respect to) the required hitch to cab distance for the shorter Montanas? And a related question : how does one avoid bed rail damage in the event of a, sharp turn.

Thanks for your patience with this newbie / hopefull owner
 
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Old 07-18-2018, 04:04 PM   #2
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A B&W hitch, non slider, is adjustible fore and aft, up and down. I simply guessed at the initial setup, then drove it. I was satisfied with the up and down clearance with the bed rails at approx. 5". I had to move the hitch head back one spot to gain the cab clearance I was happy with. I could go farther back but I don't need to. This setup is on a 2016 3160 and a 2014 Ram 3500 mega SB 4X4. Sharp turns are no problem if all is level. If on sharp inclines, better have a spotter in sharp turns.
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Old 07-18-2018, 04:23 PM   #3
dlleno
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Originally Posted by Montana Man View Post
A B&W hitch, non slider, is adjustible fore and aft, up and down. I simply guessed at the initial setup, then drove it. I was satisfied with the up and down clearance with the bed rails at approx. 5". I had to move the hitch head back one spot to gain the cab clearance I was happy with. I could go farther back but I don't need to. This setup is on a 2016 3160 and a 2014 Ram 3500 mega SB 4X4. Sharp turns are no problem if all is level. If on sharp inclines, better have a spotter in sharp turns.
Nice info. Is your pin aft of the axle? I'm looking at a standard demco picture frame with a Hensley ts3 which locates the pin 1 to 2 inches ahead of the axle, which sounds perfect from the engineering perspective. Guess I better get my tape out...
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Old 07-18-2018, 04:58 PM   #4
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Reese Side Winder Pinbox

Cab clearance has, in the past, been addressed with 5th wheel hitch changes. However, I have found the best way to address this issue is a change of the pinbox.

I had a slider for about 5 years. I had a couple of issues with it. First and foremost you better not forget to let your tailgate down BEFORE you slide your hitch. Unless your pinbox is set really high, the aft end of you pinbox will hit the front side of your tailgate. Now, you're in a real predicament because your hitch is LOCKED in the rear position and it's jammed into your tailgate so bad you can't get your tailgate to unlock. Plus it will damage your tailgate. The other issue is the loud clunking sound when starting and stopping. A slider has to be able to slide, so the mechanism has to have a good bit of slop in it to work. All this slop makes a lot of banging back and forth when starting and stopping. This can't be good for the hitch or the RV.

The Reese Sidewinder binbox swivels where it mounts to the RV not at the 5th wheel. There is a large steel block that bolts onto the pinbox directly behind the pin. This block prevents the pinbox from turning at the 5th wheel by tightly fitting in the 5th wheel entrance channel. This moves the pivot point back to the pinbox mount on the RV which is usually over 2 feet to the rear. This gives plenty of cab clearance for the truck. I've had mine at a full 90 degrees with no problem.

Reese also has what they call the Airborne Sidewinder. I actually have this one installed on my Monty. It has an air shock installed within the pinbox to help reduce hitch shock.

An added attribute is no danger of bed rail damage in jack knife conditions and more usable storage space in the pickup bed. Since the pinbox does not swing from side to side, only up and down, inside the bed you can use the space on either side of the pinbox for more cargo.

This pinbox is way better than the slider I had. Reese is not the only manufacture of this type of pinbox. I only mention it because it is the brand I have and I LOVE IT!!!!

Hope this helps.
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Old 07-18-2018, 05:03 PM   #5
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What you need to worry about is when your truck and camper aren’t on the same angle, the truck front end is higher than the camper. On a hard turn you can get an ouch real quick. In a nice flat Walmart parking lot it’s not too much trouble but backing into an uneven camp site could be a problem.
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Old 07-18-2018, 05:21 PM   #6
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dlleno,

My pin is about 2 inches aft of axle C/L. Forward becomes a problem with cab clearance in my case. The good thing is the base of the hitch stays put and the hitch head does all the adjusting.

And... welcome to the forum.
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Old 07-18-2018, 05:50 PM   #7
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I use a curt slider on my 18 3500 Megacab and 3160RL, I haven’t had any issues so far but I do slide the head aft if I have to back into a real tight spot. I don’t have to lower the gate when I slide the head aft, also I have a MorRide pin as well.
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Old 07-18-2018, 08:54 PM   #8
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Have a Moryde pinbox and a Pullrite hitch and don't worry about it.
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:30 PM   #9
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I have a B&W Patriot slider. Only needed 3 times ~~ sadly only used twice. In travel position it is about 2" in front of the axel. NOT noisy. Lift a lever with minimal effort to slide either direction. It locks in place. No need to consider the angle to hitch, no wedge. Made in USA with steel made in USA. Many adjustments for height and pin position related to axel.
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Old 07-18-2018, 11:53 PM   #10
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Great info! Thanks everyone I'll look into into the sidewinder. Id rather not locate the pin aft of the axle but a fixed pinbox on a Hensley trailer saver located 2 inches in front of the axle sounds attractive. Thanks for sharing with the new guy
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Old 07-19-2018, 07:29 AM   #11
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We were aware of the potential problems with a short bed box.Since the truck was to be used primary for pulling Montana 5th wheels we went with the long bed box. The reason we always ask for a pull through is to avoid sharp angles when backing. As Lynwwod mentioned above one can still get into trouble long or short bed box on a hard angle or uneven ground. We do our best to avoid both.
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:07 AM   #12
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Why isn't the sidewinder type of solution more common in the industry? Even a long box would benefit from transferring the rotational movement from the hitch to the rv so its not clear to me why there aren't more choices out there like it. Patents perhaps?
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:27 AM   #13
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There are very few patents you can’t get around so I would suspect it’s not that. Most patents aren’t worth the paper they are wrote on. Most people just don’t need a slider hitch so why go to all the extra expense if you don’t need it.
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:42 AM   #14
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Yea I get that. But moving the point of rotation to the trailer just sounds like a good thing no matter how long the bed is. I mean if someone were designing trailer system for the first time with a pickup bed in mind (without the historical heritage influencing today's solutions),, why would you chose to rotate the pinbox about the hitch inside the bed when you can fix the pinbox in the bed and rotate the trailer around it? There must be something I'm missing
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:29 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlleno View Post
Great info! Thanks everyone I'll look into into the sidewinder. Id rather not locate the pin aft of the axle but a fixed pinbox on a Hensley trailer saver located 2 inches in front of the axle sounds attractive. Thanks for sharing with the new guy
There are a number of ways to make towing with shortbeds effective. This equipment isn't that of ten years ago. Not trying to sell B&W, just sharing experience. The two inches either fore or aft isn't what it used to be. My hitch base mounts to the frame per the factory placement. Where the hitch head is located on that base is irrelevant as the weight transfer is (nearly) the same. Very miniscule affect from leverage. Now, in past years, if the hitch base wasn't mounted axle C/L it became problematic and in some instances, illegal.
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Old 07-19-2018, 11:23 AM   #16
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There are a number of ways to make towing with shortbeds effective. This equipment isn't that of ten years ago. Not trying to sell B&W, just sharing experience. The two inches either fore or aft isn't what it used to be.
Do you mean because of better TV suspensions?
Quote:

My hitch base mounts to the frame per the factory placement. Where the hitch head is located on that base is irrelevant as the weight transfer is (nearly) the same. Very miniscule affect from leverage.
Yes its miniscule but 3000 lbs on the pin located 2 inches aft of the axle lifts the front by the same 40 pounds 10 years ago as it does today, no matter what steel configurations exist between the pin and the axle.
Quote:


Now, in past years, if the hitch base wasn't mounted axle C/L it became problematic and in some instances, illegal.
Honest question here and not rhetorical but Why was it problematic yesterday and not today? Suspensions are better, but the lever forces and weight distribution are the same.
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:05 PM   #17
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That is because older hitches, at least mine, transfered weight straight down from where the hitch was mounted to the frame. Mounting too far rearward moved the weight too far rearward. This one has a base that mounts to the frame per the factory design and is fixed. Wherever that may be in relation to axle C/L. Then the head adjusts, transferring weight through the base, to the frame.
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:18 PM   #18
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But the new hitches transfer weight exactly like the old ones: straight down from the pin. weight is distributed according to the position of the pin (not the mounting configuration ) relative to the axle. If your pin is 2" aft of the axle, no amount of steel or sales talk will move that forward. Unless you have some serious pre stressed tensioning going on
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Old 07-25-2018, 01:09 PM   #19
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reading all of talk about pin boxes and hitches has left me confused. I am using a pullright superlight 20k hitch in our 2015 ford sb super duty, with the mount in the forward position. I do think on level ground, I can do a 90^ turn without hitting my cab.
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Old 07-25-2018, 01:27 PM   #20
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did not read all of the postings.

but first adjust the pin box, can gain inches clearance from the back of your cab.
some height above the bed rails also.
your in bed hitch should have some adjustment for height, again can gain inches above the bed rails.

got slider hitch? again more inches clearance for the cab.
then there are the axle mounts on the trailer done right can gain height here also. done wrong is a danger.

must have the the truck and trailer level while pulling down the rd. safety thing on this.
but careful about raising the trailer to high as high center of gravity is a bad thing.


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