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Old 12-03-2007, 03:30 PM   #1
bncinwv
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Latest Bright Idea for Surge and Autoformer

Obviously I have too much time on my hands, but will appreciate thoughts, input and advice (including criticism) of my latest brainstorm. I was considering a hard installation of surge guard and autoformer but I think I have come up with a better idea. What I am thinking about is having a steel or aluminum box fabricated that will hold both of these units. It would be slotted on both ends to allow for the shore lines (I will need to have two) to be slid into the box in such a fashion that when the box is closed and locked the cables could not be removed. The entire box would also have holes to allow for a steel locking cable to be inserted through the box which could be locked to the axles of the rig. Removal of the shore lines would also be prevented since the large ends would be inside the box and could not be removed without cutting the line. My only concerns are whether or not there are heat dissipation needs for these devices and whether the box would have to have aeration hols or even a fan installed. This would allow for use when needed on CG power and to not use it when under generator power. What do you all think?????
 
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Bingo and Cathy - Our adventures begin in the hills of WV. We are blessed by our 2014 3850FL Big Sky (previous 2011 3750FL and 2007 3400RL) that we pull with a 2007 Chevy Silverado Classic DRW CC dually.
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Old 12-03-2007, 03:58 PM   #2
Leaseit
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Thoughts...... Hard install both in the basement and also maybe by-pass switch for when your running a generator. Then you don't have to do all the box fabrication and lift it in and out of the trailer when setting up and tear down, and you by-pass doing a Ishikawa Chart as to why your back hurts. Also, remember "KISS" and not over engineer the solution. Just my thoughs....
Randy
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Old 12-03-2007, 03:59 PM   #3
8.1al
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Bingo,
This sounds like a good idea, the box would pretty well protect everything from theft. My only concern is the same as yours-heat. I wonder if a bunch of 1" holes in the sides would help.
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Old 12-03-2007, 04:10 PM   #4
rogue
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Bingo, I'm sure you have thought of these, but just incase. You would need to make sure the metal box is well isolated from the power, grounds and neutral circuits. If you put holes in the box for ventalation, remember you may be camping where it rains and you don't want the box to fill up with water, or the contents get wet.
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Old 12-03-2007, 04:45 PM   #5
bigmurf
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Bingo: You are in West Virginia aren't you? g
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Old 12-03-2007, 11:45 PM   #6
Glenn and Lorraine
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As was just pointed out in the other Autoformer thread, some campgrounds DO NOT allow Autoformers. If they see such a box set up by your rig suspicions will be aroused and you may find yourself being asked to leave.

A hardwired, out of sight Autoformer is the best solution.
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Old 12-04-2007, 01:31 AM   #7
H. John Kohl
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The autotransformer is a "transformer" and I point this out because it needs to breath in hot weather and especially if it is working hard to produce the desired voltage. If you build your box I recommend a fan and thermostat control on the fan circuits.
Best of luck.
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Old 12-04-2007, 01:48 AM   #8
Mrs. CountryGuy
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Agree with Glenn, out of sight, out of mind, blah blah blah

Agree with the rest, Al told me several times: gotta be ventilated somehow, heat builds up

OH, and agree with Leaseit, the comments about your back, that autoformer is soooooooooo heavy!!! I know, I brought it home from CW, OUCHIE!!
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Old 12-04-2007, 02:04 AM   #9
bncinwv
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Food for thought responses are considered as always, I will say my thoughts were geared towards external to allow for the 2009 trade up to Big Sky (shhhhhh, DW has only heard rumors so far...Yes, that is a hint Kerry!!!) and the system to be moved from the current rig. The more I think about it, that reasoning is faulty, other than protecting the shore lines from theft. If I used that reasoning I would have external stackables. I will guarantee that some sort of decision will be made by tonight, since I am ordering the generator from Tweety's tonight and the external or internal devices would be included with the order at no shipping and a reasonable price. If I order the internal devices from there.....which I am leaning towards based on forum response, I will definitely be seeking detailed installation advice (and yet another hint for Ozz and all other electrically inclined gurus) to hopefully allow for switch installation alternatives, etc. Thanks for the responses, now all that is left is the hardest part, the actual decision.
Bingo

On edit: Yes, Bigmurf, stuck at the stickhouse in West Virginia until Spring. I guess I am now officially a forum resident again until the Easter journey!!
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Old 12-04-2007, 04:33 AM   #10
rickfox
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After doing a fair amount of research, I have found that most of the manufacturers of RV surge protectors do a poor job of providing specs on the units they build, and I have not found a single one that mentions "UL 1449 Second Edition" certification. This is the spec that most of the good stick house surge protectors are built to. As has been mentioned on another thread, many have found that the Intermatic Whole House IG324RC is speced out to be one of the best surge proctection devices you can get, and a very good buy for around $100. And unlike most of the RV units, the Intermatic also provides a light indication to warn you when its innards are no longer providing protection. This is quite important in that the typical surge protector is designed to be "sacrificial in nature" in that it will destory itself during a high energy surge in order to provide the required protection. Sadly, in many cases this now nonfunctional unit will still appear to be operational unless it has some kind of indicator signal. This is yet another good reason not to purchase these types of products as used.

The question is where to install the unit (inside somewhere out of the weather). I am thinking about placing it on the john wall near the breaker box or in the closet behind the breaker box in our 3400. Anyone got any good ideas. The device is faily easy to install in that it connects in parallel (like a voltmeter) rather than most of the RV units which connect in series with the power cable.
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Old 12-04-2007, 04:42 AM   #11
bncinwv
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Rick,
What are the differences between the Surge Guards at 3 times the price and the Intermatics??
Bingo
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Old 12-04-2007, 05:38 AM   #12
rickfox
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Bingo,

It's somewhat hard to tell since the Surge Guards to not say a whole lot about their specs. The 34750 also senses low and high voltage, and provides an indication as to other faults related to improper park wiring which is beneficial but so do cheaper units from other manufacturers. Interestingly, I do not think the 34750 provides any indication that it is no longer providing surge protection. I do not see its value at over 3 times the price. The even higher priced 40240 provides such an indication and can be easily repaired, but again,at more than $400 does not seem to be a bargin to me.

Progressive Industries also sells Surge Protectors, and multi-funtion monitoring/surge devices, but they like the Sure Guard products, do not really say much about specs and no mention of UL certification.

It's sort of like buying surge protector power strips, the pricing varies all over the map from $5 to $100. You have to be careful about what to buy because price does not always indicate the true value of the produt. You can do an Internet search to get ideas about what's important to know about surge protector effectiveness. One thing you'll probably find is that specmanship is great in advertising, but you can not say it really meets those specs via. UL testing unless it really has.

For me, the Intermatic IG324RC is fairly priced, provides feedback that it is really working, is easy to install in an out of the way place internally - no theft or weather to worry about, when it dies buy another couple and you're still ahead moneywise, and being UL certified and tested you know what you're getting. If I want park wiring testing, I can buy a tester. I will still have money left over to apply toward a voltage booster type device - which in and of itself provies little surge protection.

Just my opinion.
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Old 12-04-2007, 07:46 AM   #13
rogue
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I called Intermatic, to confirm what I read on their web site and wanted to make sure what it will and will not do. I specifically asked about the IG3240RC Model. I am comparing it to the PT50C Serge protector for comparison.

Both will test Line to line, Line to Ground, Line to Neutral, Ground to Neutral, and provide notification if unit is damaged.

IG3240RC will protect from extreem High Voltage (330 volt clamping, and 60,000/180,000 amp peak surge current).
It does not protect from 240v 2 phase, low voltage, have a reset time, frequancy check.

PT50C
High voltage cut off 132v, low voltage cut off 104v, reset time 136 seconds, 2 phase (240v), source power frequency deviants +/- 9 hertz from 60 cycles. Joule rating is 3560, response time of
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Old 12-04-2007, 08:16 AM   #14
H. John Kohl
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rickfox,
I took a look at your 324 because of your statement, "it is wired in parallel", which caught my attention. First I am not a dealer but will give you my opinion of the 324 and the 34750 I installed.
Since the 324 is wired in parallel all it does is absorb a surge or spike and as you stated destroy itself if needed. If your 324 takes two surges and the first one destroys your 324 then the second one will get your trailer. It does not disable power to your trailer or house at any time.
The 34750 is a relay switching system that reacts to low or high voltage as well as a surge. The relay has a delay timer of 2 min and 16 sec to prevent damage to the air conditioning unit if there is a momentary loss of power. A perfect example is someone accidentally unplugging your trailer and plugging it right back in. A relay switch which can handle 50 amps costs a lot more and therefore, I believe, justifies the extra expense.
With this information I feel your comparison may be similar to comparing apples and oranges; I think the two items serve a different number of functions with different reactions and final consequences.
I recommend the relay switching unit.
Cheers,
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Old 12-04-2007, 08:23 AM   #15
bncinwv
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HJK,
That is the conclusion I also reached, now if I can just figure out the switching requirements for the generator. Any ideas on my other post on a separate thread???
Bingo
On edit: didn't mend to post so quick, I think I have tentatively (as usual) decided on Progressive industries Energy Management System 240V/50A - LC HW 50.
Comments, or experience anyone???
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Old 12-04-2007, 09:20 AM   #16
H. John Kohl
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bncinwv,
I like your choice because of the remote monitoring. I would mount the unit where I did in the battery compartment and mount the remote in the bathroom by the panel. On a quick scan it seem to do all and has the remote. I will look at your other post.
Cheers,
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Old 12-04-2007, 05:05 PM   #17
rickfox
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HJK,

I agree that it is very much like comparing apples and oranges since the various products are focused on providing differnt types of protection. It is true that the 324 focuses solely on preventing damage due to very fast, high voltage surges. It does not monitor high or low voltage variations, frequency changes, nor does it disconnect power to the rig under these types of circumstances. Protection of the rig for these types of problems must be left to other devices.

And the manner inwhich these devices are connected ends up effecting how well each device can do its job. For example the operational input range of the Hughs autoformer goes down to 94 VAC. If the 34750 or the PT50 were connected into park power, and the autoformer connected into it, in low voltage situations below 102VAC, power would be shut off to the autoformer before it had the chance to boost the voltage. For this reason, many suggest the autoformer be connected to park power first. Doing this however, reduces the effectiveness of the voltage monitoring/wiring testing of the 34750 or the PT50.

So, it sort of comes down to your experience as to what often causes the most problems during your travels. To my knowledge, I've never encountered AC frequency problems. I have encountered park miswiring problems, but nothing that has ever damaged anything. I often have encountered low voltage problems - thus truely see the value in an autoformer-type device. I have also encountered high voltage surge spike problems and have had equipment at my home, office and in the rig damaged because of this - more so than any other problem (when it comes to damage). That's why I personally focus first on surge protection. And it is the UL 1449 2nd Edition spec that specifically addresses this. I think you will find that none of the products typically offered for RV use are certified to 1449.

The experiences of others may cause them to focus first on other problems.
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Old 12-04-2007, 11:27 PM   #18
H. John Kohl
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rickfox,
Thanks for the post. Yes you bring up great point and a combination of all three makes a safer system. I feel the combined post will let those doing research understand the capabilities of all the items discussed.
Thanks again for the detailed follow up.
Cheers,
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Old 12-05-2007, 01:37 AM   #19
bncinwv
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I would like to personally acknowledge the assistance that H. John Kohl and others have provided to me in this endeavor. In a phone call last night I think I have reached a conclusion that I believe is the best situation for me personally. HJK provided an invaluable service in listening and letting me guide myself through the process with his experience offered as guidance. I have decided to go with the hard-wired Progressive industries Energy Management System 240V/50A - LC HW 50 with remote display installed in the rig in conjunction with a Hughes Autoformer (thanks Glenn) and will be using a Kipor IG3000 Electric Start Generator (thanks Dave - Dsprik). The EMS will be installed in between both the generator and the shore power inputs (Iota Box in Battery Compartment) and the rig's fuse panel much as HJK has done previously with his hard wired Surge Guard. His previously posted photo's were fantastic and invaluable. The Autoformer will be installed prior to the Iota box on the Shore feed only and will have detachable hookups to allow for generator hookup. Generator will be permanently mounted in the truck bed with a hookup plug installed beside the door of the battery compartment in the front of the rig that will allow for hookup to the Iota box after disconnecting the Autoformer. This will allow use of the generator from both the front and rear of the rig with surge protection on both. Autoformer will be used on shore connection from the rear only. All installation will be inside the battery box. HJK, I truly appreciate your time. The invaluable input of all is appreciated, this is what makes this forum GREAT!!!!! Once installation is complete, I will post pictures for informational purposes. If anybody sees any problems, please, please let me know as I will be placing the orders for everything this evening. Ozz, Ozzie, Richfaa, others?????
Bingo
On edit: H. John, if I am not describing this right, please chime in.
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Old 12-05-2007, 05:27 AM   #20
rickfox
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Although my approach may be a little different, I too am looking into installing an autoformer and surge protector inside the coach - much like that described at http://www.geocities.com/genieyorks/autoformer . Can someone tell me how the 240VAC is routed from the back of the coach up to the circuit breaker box on a 3400? I have looked inside the furnace cavity and under the stairs but do not see the cabling that I'm looking for.

Thanks,
Rick
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