New Ford Diesel - Page 2 - Montana Owners Club

William H. Collier · 05-20-2010, 03:02 PM

skypilot, you need to go back and look at that schematic again, the re-gen cycles are very different and no diesel is injected, only urea, and the cycles take less than a minute.
Bill

8e3k0 · 05-20-2010, 06:12 PM

The exhaust has a filter system and any time a filter is installed on an exhaust there will be restrictions that will cause problems over a time period. Fuel mileages that are being stated by sales people I feel are false. Tests are always under perfect conditions to attain the optimum. We should be very familiar with the bugs by this time next year. As long as all those electronic components work well and the urea doesn't corode or freeze in sub zero temps are just a few of the problems that can arise. I'll stay with my 09 6.4 tuned for now as we enjoy the truck and it's overall performance.
Remember 2003 and the first 6 liter engines, many many electronic problems!!

richfaa · 05-21-2010, 01:58 AM

We have looked at the Re gen cycles in our 08 6.4L very closely and since we have a external monitor gage we can see the elevated EGT and know exactly when the regen kicks in and exactly when it stops. With the latest updates we are going into regen about every 300 miles in slower city driving (below 45 mph) and @ every 450/500 + miles at interstate speed. How hot one keeps that turbo has a effect on how often you regenerate. The typical regen will last @ 20 minutes and it does not seem to make any difference if you are at city speeds or interstate speeds. We note that if the EGT is showing say 850 degrees and regen kicks in the EGT will increase to 1200/1250 instantly. That is the tip off that we are in regen. It will stay there for a few mins then slowly decrease to around 950/1000 degrees or so and remain there till the regen is over. That seems to indicate that the flow of fuel is not at a constant level. During the regen the MPG will drop 3/4 mpg. Even when pulling the 3400 anchor we feel no decrease in performance and the only way we can tell if we are in regen is by the elevated EGT. We have a couple of times smelled diesel fuel. Even so at the end of the day regen or not we still see about 10/11 mpg towing. That is our long time experience.

mlh · 05-21-2010, 11:08 AM

I think sometimes the tuners get a bum rap. People talk about high EGT and all the damage that can do to the turbo and engine. I have never seen my EGT as high as 1200. I pulled my camper up warm springs mountain here in VA. It's a harder mountain to pull up than any I have seen out west. My EGT never got to 1200 degrees. My transmission went to 241, but nothing else got anywhere near hot, and I'm running 210 extra rear wheel HP.
Lynwood

richfaa · 05-21-2010, 11:45 AM

Tuners have nothing to do with the high EGT during regen. We have pulled fancy gap and better and have not seen 1200 temps.
Sustained High EGT will do damage to the turbo which is why we have the external gage. It is set to alarm at 1200 degree and we back off. During regen the temps can get very high and IMO it is important to be able to see that and back off so that high EGT's are not sustained.

skypilot · 05-21-2010, 12:20 PM

Will have to wait and see about the regen cycles, however, today I stopped by the Ford dealer at lunch to harrass my favorite truck sales man and ask why he hadn't gotten the 2011 diesel Super Duty sold. Need to get some real world history on them. While there we were talking with their Diesel Tech who just got back from his latest course with Ford and I asked him if regenerations would be any less often thanks to the Urea injection. He said that everything they have been taught so far tells them that the Urea is strictly for reduction of NOx emmissions; it has no impact on soot. He said that they expect the number of regenerations, mileage between regens, and duration of regens, to remain the same as what we experienced with the 6.4L engines. Again, time will have to tell.

Was just looking at the diagram again, I see where the center section shows the Urea being atomized at 500c which, according to a googled calculator comes out to about 960 degrees F. The next chamber is the DPF and it states that it kicks off at 600c which would be about 1110 degrees F. Hence our seeing EGTs of 1200 and above (in my case I've seen 1400 pre-turbo several times

)..

8e3k0 · 05-22-2010, 02:24 AM

Exhaust temps will run higher with a dpf hands down; there is a restriction as the exhaust goes through the filter system. When we had ours off the size and the weight of that filter is huge!
We run straight exhausts now and have to really put your foot into the floor to hit 1100 degrees with a heavy pull and the 210 horse tune. When I had the dpf on and particullarly when the regen kicked in the truck sounded like a huge air compressor on a heavy pull; horsepower decrease was noticeable and only natural.

richfaa · 05-22-2010, 04:08 AM

Yes Skypilot I can confirm those numbers. The 1200 or so degrees we see upon initial regn is running solo 62/65mph on fairly level road. We have seen higher when towing and regen kicks in. The Ford decided to regen on a 9% grade and we ran over 1400 before I could back down. We are told the the turbo blades will be white hot at @ 1300 degrees and sustained at that temp can be fatal.

mlh · 05-22-2010, 04:17 AM

8e3k0
That is the exact same experience that I have had. I guess you could get your EGT too high, but you would haft to work at it.
Do you remember the first fast car tou ever oned? Thats what these trucks are, FUN.
Lynwood

TAKPAK · 05-24-2010, 04:46 AM

OK, I'm going to have to ask a question, or give my input here, for what it's worth (DW says not much)

I have the 2008 Duramax. When it goes into regen mode, the engine RPM goes up about 150 (noticeable) and I smell "hot exhaust" from the truck, if standing still. Now, as to the fuel, as I understand, some "excess fuel" is added to make the DPF do its thing. Being as how the DPF is AFTER the turbo, it would not seem this would be a temperature problem for the turbo. I know on the old rigs, you could wreck the turbo by overworking the engine, and giving it too much throttle. I asked the GM mechanic, and he said that the computer will NOT let you do that. It will "cut back" to prevent overheating of the Duramax turbo. I used to work on diesels, but that was 35 years ago. Only particulate filter then was the spark arrestor on the stack!!! One thing I have learned from the regen, don't walk to close to the tail pipe discharge.....or your pants will proably catch fire!

skypilot · 05-24-2010, 11:07 AM

Terry: On the Dodge the fuel is added to the cylinder during the exhaust stroke (how I don't really know) but it is then discharged out with the hot exhaust pre-turbo. This unburnt fuel then makes it way to the catalytic converter which heats up even higher giving the necessary heat to start cooking off the soot in the DPF. A year or two ago there was a short U-Tube or such video out (believe it was called F16 Ford or Flaming Ford) which had flames shooting from the exhaust pipe. When you first listened to this it actually sounded like an ignitor of a small jet engine clicking off -- and many (myself included) thought that Ford was shooting diesel directly in front of the DPF and then igniting it -- found out in the reports / postings after the little movie that is not the case -- Ford was doing the same thing -- adding extra fuel during the exhaust stroke which the catlytic converter then burned away, creating the necessary heat for the DPF to cook off the soot resulting in ash.

Dodge Tech says that that the Turbo can handle 1400 degrees for short periods of time (sure hope so) and, as mentioned, the unaltered system computer will defuel before anything can happen to the Turbo.

mlh · 05-24-2010, 03:41 PM

Terry
I think your Chevy works a little different than my Ford and Dodge. Chevy got it right. Instead of injecting fuel in the cylinders like Ford and Dodge, Chevy injects the fuel in the exhaust pipe, then it goes into the DPF. This way you are not washing all the oil off of your cylinders.
skypilot
The fuel is injected with the same injectors that run the truck. You know, cheaper that way.
Like I said Chevy got it wright, Ford and Dodge I think not, but cheap. But then we fixed the problem by getting rid if the DPF.
Lynwood

skypilot · 05-25-2010, 04:11 AM

Lynwood: Hope you kept that DPF and all the plumbing - you may (notice I say May) need it down the road... Went to Albuquerque last July with my 08 Dodge and my 5th wheel. Just as we got into Albuquerque got pulled over my police (all diesels - HDT included and any truck pulling a large trailer were being pulled over). They were doing a 'visibility / exhaust clarity' test; no citations issued to out-of-state vehicles; NM plates outside of Bernallilo county were given what appeared to be warnings; trooper did tell me that anyone from Bernallilo county would get an EPA violation citation and have to have their vehicle corrected within 10 days. We were given a paper saying how Bernallilo county has to meet EPA air quality standards and how vehicles make up such a large amount of the particulate matter in the air (anyone ever seen a NM dust storm -- how can a truck compare to one of those for putting junk in the air

but I digress )...

Any way, to make a long story even longer - we went to Kirtland Air Force Base to do some shopping and see if there was some space at their campground - when entering the gate I was asked for my ID, and my EPA certificate (????). Seems that to get your vehicle registered on Kirtland you have to meet Bernallilo County air standards -- since we were only visiting inlaws for a few days, I was given a pass but I found the discussion with the Gate guard informative. They are also monitoring for noise - straight pipes on 2004.5 and newer are prohibited (on my Dodge there is a placard stating that the exhaust meets the noise pollution requirement such and such-- don't remember it exactly).

Regardless, I used to enjoy the straight pipes (cherry bomb / Glass Pack mufflers on gas engines !!) Oh well, I ramble. Sorry 'bout that.

Trailer Trash 2 · 05-25-2010, 04:36 AM

It sure sounds like it is starting with the EPA. "Diesel Bashing" That is the first detailed story of checks I have heard so far, it will probably get worst, a sign for all those with Deleats, keep your stuff for a reinstall it could get costly.

mlh · 05-25-2010, 05:30 AM

skypilot
Hope I kedt it? Sure I kept the worthless POJ. I take it with me everywhere I go. You know, just in case.
Lynwood

richfaa · 05-25-2010, 09:33 AM

Being from Pittsburgh, Pa Can well remember pre EPA days. Days when there was no sunshine, black snow, streams boiling with soap suds.Mom not allowing we kids out side because the air was bad. Later I remember a dead lake Erie, fish and sewerage washed up on shore. The river on fire. The paint of my car ate off from the Ford Plant discharges. When the wind was right red smoke from the Lorain steel mills blowing through the back yard...5 miles away from the plant.. Sorry..we are pro EPA....

mlh · 05-25-2010, 10:30 AM

I'm pro planet. I cant see how a little bit if soot could be worse than using a lot more fuel. Global warming is the real problem.
My truck will use over 1200 gallons less fuel in 100000 miles with the DPF off, and that I think is pro earth.
Lynwood

AJH · 08-14-2011, 04:25 PM

I have a 2003 Ford F350 6.0 diesel. When I was crossing the mountains last week I noticed that every time I stopped, there would be oil dripping from under the engine. It was right at the point where the engine and transmation meet. (OH hes its a automatic). I stoped at a Ford dealer, who told me it was leaking some place on top and that in order to find the leak they had to pull the transmission. (they were booked for 2 weeks) Any way since it wasn't a big leak I continued on my way keeping track of the oil level and gauge. The gages showed no problems and I did add about 2 qts of oil over 600 miles. (mountain miles). Anyway when I got to KY I kept checking under the truck and no leak (Yes it has oil in it) he he... But it has not leaked a a drop. Has anyone experianced this when pushing the the truck (Up and down mountains towing a rig). IN short should I worry or just keep an eye on it and see what happens?

Delaine and Lindy · 08-14-2011, 04:37 PM

I do believe the EPA is trying to kill the Diesel engine. The EPA has made the Diesel get less fuel milage by burning more fuel in a attempt to clean the exhaust... People who write these regulations don't have a clue what is happening to the Heavy truck and heavy equipment industry. I agree the dust storms do more damage in minutes than a Diesel does in months.... I totally don't believe there is such a thing as Global warming, remember the 70's the same people were predicting another Ice age and it didn't happen. Climate change has been happening for millions of years. Climate change is a Historial happening and it will continue to happen no matter if there is no Gas or Diesel engines running at all... And if there is no fossil fuel America will not exist... And America has plenty of Oil.... Drill Baby Drill.....

mlh · 08-15-2011, 09:29 AM

Now let me get this straight, We are doing to burn more diesel fuel to clean the environment. How does that work?
Lynwood

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