it never ends ( UPDATE) it gets worse.

[Tom S.]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

I Really do not know who makes the Montana tanks now. When we replaced the two tanks in the 06 we went right down the street from the plant and picked them up. I would doubt that rv manufacturers user a high quality holding tanks as in the boat industry.

we are not very surprised by the failures we are having . We are extremely disappointed as we expected better as we did purchase a second Montana.
IMO many of us are having similar problems but have not said so. We need to say so and we need to say so to Keystone.

If they do the Premium" big sky as we heard at the rally with the same build quality issues it will be a flop for the company.
Put a little more $$ into quality control and build quality and show the RV consumer what you can do.

Rich, while I like Montana and all they have done for members over the years, their quality control is 30 years out of date. The auto companies used to do it that same way: wait until the vehicle is built, then have inspectors look for defects. As you have proven, that only works for exposed items. Japanese quality forced American car companies to adopt their quality protocols which was to make each worker responsible for the quality of their job, and suppliers responsible in the same manner. If a worker sees an issue, the build process stops until the cause of the problem is found and permanently fixed. The Japanese don't believe in final inspections (other than random samples), instead believing that if each worker and vendor is responsible for the quality of their work or product, the final assembled car should be perfect. And they have proven to be right.

Unfortunately, until other RV manufactures adapt this philosophy or Japan starts building RVs, I don't see things changing. I'd be happy to teach Keystone how to improve their quality - for a nominal fee of course!

Also unfortunate is none of this helps you or Helen.

[CORattler]

quote:Originally posted by mhs4771

Is it possible these holding tanks are being made from recycled Marathon tires??

ROFL X2!!!

[CORattler]

Pride in workmanship/product. self respect, commitment to quality, integrity, customer satisfaction above all else.... take your pick.
ALL RV manufacturers need to attain and maintain these values to prosper and grow. Those who don't/won't will go the way of the Chevy Corvair.

[richfaa]

quote:Originally posted by Tom S.

Rich, while I like Montana and all they have done for members over the years, their quality control is 30 years out of date. The auto companies used to do it that same way: wait until the vehicle is built, then have inspectors look for defects. As you have proven, that only works for exposed items. Japanese quality forced American car companies to adopt their quality protocols which was to make each worker responsible for the quality of their job, and suppliers responsible in the same manner. If a worker sees an issue, the build process stops until the cause of the problem is found and permanently fixed. The Japanese don't believe in final inspections (other than random samples), instead believing that if each worker and vendor is responsible for the quality of their work or product, the final assembled car should be perfect. And they have proven to be right.

Unfortunately, until other RV manufactures adapt this philosophy or Japan starts building RVs, I don't see things changing. I'd be happy to teach Keystone how to improve their quality - for a nominal fee of course!

Also unfortunate is none of this helps you or Helen.

Tom My friend I was in that Business for several years which is why I am so harsh on the RV industry in terms of quality. I understand exactly what you are talking about. we studied the man and the Swedish
Volvo programs. You are right the first Japanese company that builds a RV in the USA using their work techniques will put the USA Rv ind ustry out of business.

[Irlpguy]

It is pretty difficult to compare the Auto manufacturing industry to the RV industry, no matter where the auto is being built. There have been some major recalls over the past years on Japanese cars as there have been on US made vehicles. Remember Toyota a few years back.

You all might recollect many years ago before we started bringing vehicles in from Japan by the boatload the majority of the "stuff" being imported was considered Japanese junk. That certainly changed and they have proven to produce higher quality products in almost every area than that being produced in North America.

In spite of how well they ensure the quality of their products I don't think we will see them in competition with the North American RV industry anytime soon. Most of us would not be able to afford the product anyway.

I would sure like to know what failed on your tanks Rich, I have over filled both my gray water tanks on several occasions and have not had a problem (touch wood). I try hard not to do that but sometimes the DW has an extra long shower and catches me off guard. Pretty much got the emptying down to a science now though.

[richfaa]

Well it took 17 months for them to fail and we also do not fill them very often. We can see the crack in the galley tank and it is not on a seam or at a rounded corner. I will try to post a picture of it soon.

[Tom S.]

quote:Originally posted by Irlpguy

It is pretty difficult to compare the Auto manufacturing industry to the RV industry, no matter where the auto is being built. There have been some major recalls over the past years on Japanese cars as there have been on US made vehicles. Remember Toyota a few years back.

You all might recollect many years ago before we started bringing vehicles in from Japan by the boatload the majority of the "stuff" being imported was considered Japanese junk. That certainly changed and they have proven to produce higher quality products in almost every area than that being produced in North America.

During a recent audit of our Marketplace section, it was discovered that a few sellers have exceeded the guidelines set for members and need to establish commercial accounts. Commercial accounts are needed by those individuals who exceed 15 items per year and a ratio of 10 forum posts for every sale item. The audit indicates that you are one of these sellers. To establish your commercial account, please follow

Your first statement conflicts with the second. In the first one you take a shot at Japanese quality, and in the second you laud how far they have come. The truth is in between the two.

If you had a manufacturing background, you would understand what Rich and I were talking about. Here's some history for you: After WWII, the US helped Japan both economically and educationally to change Japan's culture from feudalism and farming to manufacturing. You are certainly correct about the early products from Japan being labeled as junk, and Japan knew it. To overcome that stigma, they had an American named Dr. Deming come to their country and teach them how to build quality products. That impacted all of Japanese products, from electronics to automobiles. All manufacturing, no matter what the product, learned from the Deming philosophy.

Soon, Japanese imports, especially electronics (Sony, Panasonic and Toshiba) became the top names. Cars quickly followed. In the electronics field, US manufacturers either fled to Japan (and later Korea, then China) or went under. The US autos, too entrenched to move, had to either change or die. That's when the "Big 3" began to take the term 'quality' seriously, and it's the only thing that saved them. If you don't think the same thing would happen to the RV industry, should a country like Japan (or South Korea, who adopted the same plan as Japan) became involved in the manufacturing of RV's, you either fail to understand economics or are living in the 60's.

So the jump from cars to RV's is NOT far fetched and instead makes perfect sense.

[Irlpguy]

Tom S.

Jeeeeez I will attempt to put my commercial account in order as quickly as possible, thank you for the reminder.

Thank you also for the history lesson, your obvious superior knowledge and intelligence is a great benefit to those of us who are uneducated..

While you and I may disagree on many subjects, taking a condescending tone as you have serves only to try to make me appear inferior to yourself. Since that is not the case, I will therefore not debate with you historical happenings either in the US or Japan, nor my understanding of the manufacturing sector.

Rich I look forward to seeing the pictures if you are able to post them. I am sure they will be of interest to many of us.

[Tom S.]

quote:Originally posted by Irlpguy

Tom S.

Jeeeeez I will attempt to put my commercial account in order as quickly as possible, thank you for the reminder.

Thank you also for the history lesson, your obvious superior knowledge and intelligence is a great benefit to those of us who are uneducated..

While you and I may disagree on many subjects, taking a condescending tone as you have serves only to try to make me appear inferior to yourself. Since that is not the case, I will therefore not debate with you historical happenings either in the US or Japan, nor my understanding of the manufacturing sector.

Rich I look forward to seeing the pictures if you are able to post them. I am sure they will be of interest to many of us.

You are confusing inferior with uneducated. Not everyone lived and worked through the Japanese/American quality issues like I did. I was trying to educate you not make you feel inferior. Sorry if you feel that way.

[bigskyjimmy]

If the Rv industry would take on the practice of "Kaizen" the continuous improvement process that The Japanese and Korean's use and now American car Mfg's and my former employer used it would go a long way in improving things ,in the 70's and 80's on they made the American cars look about as good as a YUGO and now I would buy a American car in a heartbeat it would be a good thing if they came over here and made RV's and "shake things up" it would only make Montana and every other SOB better ....Watch the movie GUNG HO with Micheal Keaton some time, funny movie but that's what the RV industry needs

[bethandkevin]

Rich, it's unfortunate you're having major issues with your tanks. It certainly would be interesting to know the root cause of the problem as they seem to be leaking higher up the tank and not where they are supported. That said, without adequate support, it seems reasonable the tanks could twist and contort to a degree. You certainly put more miles on your rig than we do ours. We've put just under 5,000 miles on ours since taking delivery in April 2012. I never tow with anything in the holding tanks, but always leave with the water tank full. It's interesting you don't have a problem with that tank, but I suspect you use city hookup mostly. When set up on our northern property for two months in the fall, I usually let the tanks fill before dumping. Being the latter part of that stay is in cold temperatures and the plastic would assumably be more "brittle", makes me even more curious what the cause of your tank failure is. It sounds like you are making the best of the situation. Be thankful you have the knowledge to do what you have so far-not everyone on this forum can say the same.

[richfaa]

What Tom and I are talking about can be looked up on the internet. It is very interesting and it works. Remember Ford's "quality is job one" program it was based on those techniques.

Kevin. There is rarely more than 5 gallons of water in our fresh water tank. We also let our galley and gray tank fill every once in awhile to flush out the waste hose. the leak in te galley tank is at the very bottom and all I can tell is the leak on the gray tank is about half way up. We have about 7 K miles on this 13 3402.

We will not be able to know the exact cause till we get them on the ground and that will not happen for awhile.

[Irlpguy]

For heavens sake Rich, you and Tom are not talking a foreign language when it comes to understanding what happened in Japan post war and the major changes that took place as they progressed from production of poor quality items to some of the best in the world, nor the understanding of how and why that happened and how it eventually changed how the US auto industry performed. Give a little credit to the intelligence and knowledge of others who debate issues and express opinions on topics they may not have been directly involved in.
None of what Tom or you are saying is in any way a revelation to most folks our age who were business owners and who had any interest in what was going on in the industrial world.

In order for Keystone or any other RV manufacturer to apply the model that the Japanese used, they firstly have to be committed to building an infinitely superior product, they also would have to have complete control of the quality of each and every part of the RV they did not produce themselves.
The problem with the current RV manufacturers is, they already use components that are in most cases guaranteed for a longer period than are their own components and the unit as a whole. I don't think in my lifetime I am going to see many changes in the current model.

One thing both you and Tom are correct about, is if the Japanese model was used by any one RV manufacturer and the price was kept competitive there would be no need for the Japanese to come to the US and build RV's. The US manufacturers can figure out how to do it, there is just no incentive to do so.

Now as for your tanks, they should be able to be filled to capacity repeatedly without damaging them, provided they are supported in a way prescribed by the tank manufacturer. Either the tank is crap or they are not being properly supported. Either way you and many others are having to deal with the indignity of sitting in a park with leaks and parts hanging down. What a grand testament to the Keystone product.

[richfaa]

In our 06 3400 the tank manufacturer said they were not installed according to their spec's as they were not properly supported. Of the five that failed all but one failed at the very top at the input to the tank.

I am just guessing here on the leaks on this 3402 but I suspect defective tanks. On the leak I can see in the galley tank there appears to be a small blister in the form of a white discoloration where the failure occurred. The gray tank appears to be leaking about halfway full. There is just no way we can see the leak in the gray tank. We had to cut a flap in the underbelly material to see the leak in the galley tank. The entire underbody would have to be removed to replace a tank or cut it into sections. I am sure the one piece underbelly improves the insulation factor and prevents air leaks but makes repair near impossible. Mine is going to have a nice flap cut in it and Gorilla taped.... Nice.

the big Sky is getting some attention in the park. Some folks were taking pictures yesterday. Wonder where they will show up.

[Tom S.]

quote:Originally posted by Irlpguy

One thing both you and Tom are correct about, is if the Japanese model was used by any one RV manufacturer and the price was kept competitive there would be no need for the Japanese to come to the US and build RV's. The US manufacturers can figure out how to do it, there is just no incentive to do so.

That was one of the hardest things the Big 3 had getting their collective heads wrapped around: quality doesn't cost, it pays. Granted, there are costs in training your workforce, and when you stop a car assembly line to correct a problem, money is a big issue. But these costs are quickly repaid in far fewer warranty issues, not to mention eliminating the cost of final inspection and repairing what they find. Trust me, I heard it firsthand more than once: "Let it go and let the dealer fix it."! As for components, the RV manufacturers would have to do the same thing the autos did, which was to force their suppliers to make the same changes.

Nothing man made is perfect, but when you can take a product from having an average of 15 minor defects and 2 major ones (purely a guesstimate on my part of Keystone's quality score) down to 3 minor and 0 major problems, your company will save a lot of money, and your buyer will not only likely come back, but become a salesperson for your product.

[richfaa]

We patched the galley tank leak with eternabond per the instructions and a call to eternabond. It should hold. we are leaving the underbelly down till we can confirm a fix. The gray tank will have to stay as it is and as long as we keep the tank open or only fill about 1/4 full it looks like it will be OK.

We are living in the rig and can not do the down time required for a fix' We will take it to D&T repair when we get back home for a proper fix and installation.

We are keeping Keystone customer service informed with pictures etc . IMO it is their problem due to defective or improperly installed tanks. we will use our GS extended warranty and our own out of pocket bucks. We expect nothing from keystone.

The Big sky has been getting great PR here in the resort as the "stink" was tracked back to our lot. I of course do not hesitate to tell the truth when asked about the Montana.

[drsmart]

Rich. I wonder what it would have cost for Keystone to make it right by removing the underbelly and replacing all failing tanks followed by full structural support to ensure no future problems. How many lost Montana sales is this forum going to cost them not to mention your local spectators passing the word for years to come. They would likely be able to claim credits from the tank manufacturer as well if the defects are obvious.

Dave

[richfaa]

quote:Originally posted by drsmart


Rich. I wonder what it would have cost for Keystone to make it right by removing the underbelly and replacing all failing tanks followed by full structural support to ensure no future problems. How many lost Montana sales is this forum going to cost them not to mention your local spectators passing the word for years to come. They would likely be able to claim credits from the tank manufacturer as well if the defects are obvious.

Dave

I understand what you are saying Dave but keystone should not have to make it right they should do it right in the first place.

What PR they get from my experience and others is of their own making..

[simonsrf]

We had 2 tank failures on our Montana.

During an inspection of a leaking gray tank, the Star manufactured plastic was the problem. In some places, the plastic was thin, and where the tank had been released from the mold, there was a perfectly round circle that poked/released through the bottom. The rigid connection between the house and the tank was also an issue because the tank is not stabilized. Rigid moving plastic creates stress, plastic breaks from repeated stress.

The second tank failure was supposedly an owner problem. I over-filled the black tank while washing it out, but truthfully, I don't think it should have broken that easily. These tanks are very inexpensive, the cost of replacing them is the labor and the shipping.

Rich, good luck with the quality control thing. I personally think that generation is dying away and the new generation has no idea what we are talking about in this throw-away society.

[davidaf]

Honestly I wouldn't have bought mine had I read this thread. In fact I was tossing around SOB vs Montana, a couple very strong threads on another forum helped push me to the Montana side along with a healthy $$ savings. Of course there are Montanas that will never have these problems, mine better be one, but I would have been risk averse particularly buying it as a full time unit and a first time consumer of any Keystone product.