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Old 09-13-2008, 10:56 AM   #21
bsmeaton
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Best of luck to you Dean.

Just remember, that $110 Apollo oven represents 1/4 of 1% of the total product. In your management days, how much time would you spend on it.

 
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Old 09-13-2008, 10:57 AM   #22
richfaa
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"RVs are a few steps below temporary housing." Good description.... I do not have a real big problem with the quality of materials that go into a RV. There are many things to consider. The foremost is weight.These big fiver's have to be light enough to be pulled by a 3/4 or 1 ton truck yet not fall apart as they are yanked down the road, in order to be most cost effective. The weight on every item must be closely monitored and weight can effect quality. We could have better cabinets, carpet, pads, furniture, frames, etc but that would effect weight.These rv's also are not designed for the kind of use many of us(us included) put them to.As a weekend campers with our SOB's we never had many problems..did not use them hard enough. Home work and research before purchasing would have made that evident. However..there is no excuse for shoddy and sub standard workmanship and that is what we get in the RV industry. Screws falling out of our cabinets and doors falling off was due to over torquing at the factory not the quality of the cabinets. Our meltdown was caused by improper placement of wiring,hydraulic lines and no quality control.Pipes leaking are caused by improper installation at the factory and no quality control..it goes on and on. A good quality control program at the factory would eliminate the vast majority of these nickle dime issues but would also impact the cost margin of the manufacturer and it will not happen as long as the consumer accepts the product. A graph of use VS failures would be very interesting.
We are not unhappy with our 3400..We knew exactly what to expect when we purchased the Montana or any other brand in the price range..so we are disappointed but not surprised. What Dean and I know is that these issues can be easily solved and it is primarily the consumers fault that they are not.
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Old 09-13-2008, 11:18 AM   #23
Dean A Van Peursem
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Somehow the above message got sent before I finished it. I think one of the major problems with this particular Apollo issue is that we Montana owners are not dealing directly with the manufacturer but a sole distributor for these specific Apollo products. Midwest Sales. Depending on their contractual arrangements with Apollo they may be responsible for a substantial amount of the warranty costs rather than Apollo. Distributor margins tend to be very thin but hopefully they achieve high enough sales volumes to provide the margin dollars they need to be profitable. If they don't have an equitable arrangement with the manufacturer it doesn't take much of a problem to wipe out the profit. Midwest Sales may have had to take a tougher approach to remain viable. But that is a short term solution that may bite them later and probably is with so much negative Apollo press already floating around.

Does anyone happen to know what percentage of 5th wheel RV's are sold to first time 5th wheel owners vs those on the second or third or more. We are first time buyers and we expected some problems but not 2 plus years of grief. At this point in time we would never ever buy another RV but if we did, we would be all over that potential purchase like stink on manure. First mistake is the manufacturer's problem. The second would be ours. We sincerely doubt we could find an RV that would meet the requirements at any price. In retrospect we should have known what we were going to be getting into when we found so much on our pre-purchase and delivery inspection. Obviously, appliance failures are somewhat hidden but we found so many sloppy construction issues that it should have been indicative of the lack of attention to quality throughout. Our unit must have been built on a day after a long weekend and/or there was a recent fire sale on drugs/booze in the Goshen, IN area. Some examples: the closet door and bathroom door frames were more than 3/4" out of square and the bathroom door was warped so bad it wouldn't close. The super slide ceiling sagged more than an 1". It took three trips to the dealer to finally get just those corrected properly. That was just the beginning. Our unit is currently in for a replacement of the black tank because it cracked and was leaking badly. I mistakingly thought getting the Apollo microwave fixed at the same time would be a minor issue. I try to keep hoping that we are getting these issues down to where it will be a dull roar. Well... hopefully even better than that. :-)
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Old 09-13-2008, 11:48 AM   #24
Dean A Van Peursem
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I learned very early in business that "Small leaks can sink big ships!" Now I know that saying goes back to WWII and had to do with security issues but it applies to many business situations as well. All it takes is some stinking little problem to give the company and their products a bad reputation. Good news travels at the speed of sound and bad news travels at the speed of light. :-) If there is smoke, stop it before a fire breaks out. I'll give an example of what could be interpreted as a 1/4 of 1% problem. As General Manager I received a call from an Attorney at General Motors concerning our company's bar code readers that were given a read error once every 10,000 reads. Now that is one error out of 10,000 reads. 0.0001. Pretty small but believe it or not I was informed that if we didn't find and fix the problem within the 30 days they were going to have to shut down 21 GM automobile assembly plants. I had three engineers on an airplane the next morning. It was our problem and we found it and fixed it in three days. We hadn't seen it before but should have. GM was very appreciative and they soon forgot about the problem but they never forgot about how well we handled the problem. That problem and quick fix turned out to be the best thing for our future business with GM and it was substantial. The attention to small quality details might have something to do with the reason we get a much higher quality car for $44,000 than we do with a $44,000 RV. There is no such thing as a small quality problem. The ramifications of small problems can be very severe. Problems are real opportunities if handled properly. I hope you now understand why 1/4 of 1% IS SIGNIFICANT TO ME AND WHY IT SHOULD BE TO THE RV INDUSTRY AS WELL.
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Old 09-13-2008, 12:03 PM   #25
richfaa
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Great example but falls on deaf ears in the rv industry. It is just not Worth it for them to spend the time and money because the consumer accepts the product as is. With Rv industry in hard times and in financial distress I would not be surprised to see the Chinese or Japanese purchase one of the large RV companies in distress.. and apply their manufacturing philosophies to the building of Rv's. The US RV industry would be finished.
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Old 09-13-2008, 12:33 PM   #26
Dean A Van Peursem
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Rich,

The weight issue was significant to us since we are pulling our 3400RL with a F250. Prior to purchasing the 3400RL we had looked at many different units but had been especially impressed with a particular SunnyBrook model. I don't remember the model now. I'll admit we were pretty naive but it looked better built than some of the others we looked at and even better than the Montana. Knowing what we now know that may have been a figment of our imagination! :-) However, the reason we didn't buy that particular model of Sunnybrook was that it was over 2,000 lbs heavier than the 3400RL. Now after owning the 3400RL for a couple of years I am repeatedly stunned by the extreme weight of some of the interior items in the unit. The weight of the two recliners, the sofa bed and the 4 chairs is unreasonable. I just cannot figure out why such heavy items are needed. My cynical nature can only come up with the following reason: To reduce the pin weight since most of these items are in the rear! I sure hope I'm wrong on that. We have removed one of the recliners and one of the chairs to reduce weight and open up the living area a bit. We also have replaced the analog TV with an HD 32" LCD version saving probably over 100 lbs alone with a much better picture. We have also rotated the table 90 degrees to open up the aisle way to the living area a bit and can still seat 4 at the table. Casually we are looking for lighter weight and less bulky replacements for the recliners and sofa bed. The OEM sofa bed has been a real disappointment in that our guests have complained so much of its discomfort for sleeping we have gone to an air mattress. The sofa bed is heavy, bulky and uncomfortable. Other than that it's great!

But maybe someone can explain to me why Montana uses such heavy and bulky interior items and then builds the internal structure out of aluminum to save weight! I'm having real trouble with that anomaly.
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Old 09-13-2008, 12:51 PM   #27
Dean A Van Peursem
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Rich,

It is a bit funny in that I had thought of the very same thing while I was writing my other messages. What if a high quality company started building really high quality RV's in the US? Complying with ISO 9000 quality standards and low cost manufacturing techniques. And I would suspect they would be at similar pricing or maybe even lower. It would blow the industry apart. High quality is not expensive, if done properly. I was part of a company that achieved ISO 9001 status and certification. In the process our quality improved and the total cost of the product to the customer went down. We don't have to pay more to get high quality. Poor quality is expensive for everyone.
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Old 09-14-2008, 04:07 AM   #28
richfaa
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They use that heavy stuff because they get it cheap...opps, cost effective...as our stuff wears out we will replace it with better quality lighter, smaller stuff. It try not to wear myself out thinking about the low quality in the RV industry and concentrate on keeping this 3400 in good repair, replace stuff that fails and am thankful that I followed the advise of many others and purchased a good extended warranty which has with my black tank failure returned 3/4 of my 7 year premium. I do enjoy talking to you Dean about quality and enjoyed our visits in Arizona.Our lesson learned in using this unit as hard as we do and its failure rate is that although we would really like to upgrade we will not do that but improve and upgrade this unit.
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Old 09-14-2008, 08:45 AM   #29
Dean A Van Peursem
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Rich,

It appears we will be hanging on to ours for awhile too. Not really because we want to but with the current depressed market for RV's, we don't want to take the additional financial hit. If our 3400RL would just quit throwing curves at us for awhile I might forget some of the past issues but the new problems keep coming at a rate that just piles on and refreshes older memories. Even at rest in AZ for 5 months it has to kick us in the groin occasionally. New water leaks, shower faucet and piping leaks, sewer tank leaks, DC wiring issues. I guess we should feel lucky that the frame hasn't cracked or the hanger brackets haven't broken ....yet. Hmmmm... I wonder what an anti-tank weapon would do? Probably an exclusion in our insurance about that! :-) We need something good to happen. Need to go look for that somewhere. Only about a month and a half before we head to AZ for the winter. The change in evironment usually helps for awhile. Here, my John Deere Garden Tractor model 425 decided to have sympathy pains for the Montana while it was gone. Battery died, seat frame broke and main deck drive belt wore out all within a week. $220 later that is back doing it's job reliably again. It is over 10 years old and the hours on it have piled up on it with our 5 acres to mow. It has been very reliable up until this little fit of indifference. But the JD 425 was built properly to begin with and with the many hard hours on it, the $220 is really not much more than normal maintenace on an over 10 year old garden tractor. Belts wear out, batteries don't last forever and the seat frame takes a real beating when my big body bounces around on the seat in the pasture. Turns out that seat frame and seat was a bit underdesigned and one of the weak links on the tractor. A JD Dealer has independantly upgraded the seat frame and seat to improve this situation. I bought their version in hopes it won't break again. Even JD has their quality issues. JD's low cost models, some of which are sold at Home Depot and Lowe's are built so poorly they are no better than any of the other brands. One has to buy the high end JD's to get decent quality garden tractors. The model 425 was the top of the line when new. And up till now has been more reliable than ever expected. I guess it is starting to show it's age. At least the parts needed were readily available. Not complaining at all about the JD 425.
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Old 09-15-2008, 03:06 PM   #30
Dean A Van Peursem
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An update regarding the parts needed on the Apollo 1/2 time oven. As expected I never received the call from the supervisor at Midwest Sales that was promised. So... Sunday I decided to try contacting them via email. I sent an email to:

Tammi Held

theld@midwestsales.org

At Midwest Sales (Apollo Distributer) and explained the whole situation again and asked why I needed to buy the turntable motor in addition to the plastic turntable drive. Their response made sense to me. They said that quite often the shaft breaks on the motor. I explained that it appeared to me that ours had broken off even with the end of the shaft. I'm working from memory because I can't go look at it right now because the RV is at a dealer 3 hours away.

There response was now very professional: They are sending me a new plastic drive that I can install myself - "Free of Charge" tomorrow. I can order a new motor later if it turns out the shaft is broken off. But... I haven't yet found out if I can get the remaining plastic part off from inside the oven chamber or if I need to disassemble the oven to get to it. I asked them again what is the best way to get this off and they haven't responded yet but I suspect I'll be able to figure that procedure out myself when I can see, touch and feel the Apollo oven again.

Now this response from Midwest Sales is 180 degrees different than when I called in last week. I don't know why. Hopefully, I will have the part before we go to pick up the RV next week. If this works out as hoped, I'm going to be very upset with the dealer who told me parts were not available and I needed to buy a replacement oven. It is these kinds of situations that makes me so distrustful of those associated with the RV industry. Hopefully, there is a valid reason the dealer gave me the incorrect information.

PS: the whole address for Tami Held is:

Tammi Held
Midwest Sales & Service
Warranty Logistics Manager
(574) 472-4283
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Old 09-15-2008, 04:20 PM   #31
Mrs. CountryGuy
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Dealer,

There is the nasty word!

Ours stank, still does, we will never buy another trailer from him, and there are others here at MOC that know who he is, and feel the same way.

Dealers make or break our RVing experience more than once.

They will tell you parts are ordered, they are not. They will tell you they cannot get the parts, they did not even try. They tell you this or that can be fixed so you would never know, and 3 days later, they say, I would never claim I could fix THAT!!

Find an independent, like Fox RV in Elkhart County Indiana. Many of us go out of our way to have Larry work on our rigs. And, if he says it can be done or fixed, BELIEVE IT!

Some dealers stink! If I could buy direct, I would!

This is MY opinion. There are others here at the MOC that have terrific dealers. I COULD be jealous!

Next add hauling these monsters down the HARD road, knocking stuff around and off. OKKKK, I won't go there in this thread.
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Old 09-19-2008, 03:21 PM   #32
Dean A Van Peursem
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Update on Parts for Apollo oven. I received the replacement plastic carousel drive part today in the mail from Midwest Sales per their promise. So far so good. The RV is 3 hours away so I am unable to compare parts to determine if the part is the correct replacement but my guess at the moment is it is close. I won't know until I get a chance to figure out how to and remove the remaining plastic remnant on the motor shaft. Hopefully I can figure out how to get it off the shaft w/o having to tear the whole oven apart. I've been trying to figure out a fabricated puller but if there are any MOC members that have done this I would appreciate their suggestions. Midwest Sales declined to offer any suggestions for some reason. It is a bit hard for me to believe they have never run into this before. Maybe they too would prefer to just sell a new oven. At least they have made some points by sending me the replacement part.

We will be retrieving the RV next week after paying for the black tank replacement. Hopefully, that won't set back the diminished bank account further than expected. I'm going to try to get some pictures of the failed tank for reference. The description of the crack that the service tech gave me doesn't quite fit with what I observed earlier. Hopefully, that will get resolved. Also got the Dometic refrigerator recall update taken care of at the same time. Didn't have any problems with the refrigerator before, I hope that doesn't change. Will follow up when we get further along on this journey.
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Old 09-19-2008, 11:56 PM   #33
garyka
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As long as they remain a top seller nothing will change,for example mission tires,etc
I had a similar appliance problem with dometic,small plastic part broke on a refrigerator door and I was a few months out of warranty and they informed me I wood have to purchase a new door.I put a claim in on my extended warranty and they paid all but shipping.If you have the insurance try it.
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Old 09-20-2008, 09:44 AM   #34
Dean A Van Peursem
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Don't have Extended Warranty on the RV. So far we are still financially ahead but with all the problems we have had and this crap continues we would have been better off purchasing it. If we had extended warranty and they wouldn't pay the freight and packaging on the tank from Goshen, IN to WA state, that alone would have have been over $120 out of pocket. Supposedly the dealer has completed the black tank replacement in the $700 plus tax range. We will see what the total bill really is. I fully expect a hassle. Everything else on this RV has been.
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Old 09-20-2008, 01:43 PM   #35
richfaa
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Dean...The total for my black tank replacement by the dealer was 729.00. We did have the extended warranty and the 729.00 included shipping and taxes...Cost to me was 50.00.
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Old 09-22-2008, 03:05 PM   #36
Dean A Van Peursem
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Rich,

The question remains: Why are so many of us having to have the black tank replaced? As long as the extended warranty insurance companies pay for it then does it become a non-issue? I know you don't believe that.

Have any other MOC members been able to find out if the replacement black tank has been redesigned, mounted/supported differently, different from the originals or strengthened to avoid similar failures in the future? I asked those questions and got completely stonewalled. I was hoping for some assurances that I won't be facing these same issues again in the near future. I think those are reasonable questions. Maybe I'm wrong. Hopefully other MOC members who have had the black tank replaced were able to find out additional information that I was unsuccessful at. Please share that info if possible.

PS: I ended up in a no-win situation of pressing to get the answers, not getting them, resulting in not having a usable RV indefinitely or just get the black tank replaced and hope for the best. I guess I haven't heard of other MOC members that have had their black tank replaced more than once. That is encouraging and may be indicative. We plan to pick up our RV next Wednesday and camp out a few days near the dealer to check things out a bit. I don't even want to think about further problems with the black tank. I might end up in jail! :-)
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Old 09-26-2008, 05:39 PM   #37
Dean A Van Peursem
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Well, we have picked up the RV after the blank tank replacement. So far so good. Won't go into the tension filled session at the dealer but will provide an update on the Apollo oven issue. Now that I can look at, touch and feel the actual oven I now recognize my memory wasn't very good about what was broken. The drive gear, that I received a replacement for, slides over a plastic shaft that has a flat side to provide the drive force. The drive gear wasn't broken but the plastic shaft is broken. about level with the bottom of the inside of the oven. So I'm back to ground zero. I don't know if this broken plastic shaft is part of the motor or a sleeve that connects to a steel shaft in the motor. I'll call Midwest Sales early next week to see if they can enlighten me on this. Kind of disappointed but if the plastic shaft is an integral part of the motor, not a sleeve, at least a replacement motor is available and can be purchased for $30.00. I'll keep updating this thread as I make progress. This WILL get fixed w/o buying a whole new oven. :-) Nothing is easy I guess!
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:13 AM   #38
Wiarton William
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I will concur with the attitude of the clerks at apollo...They dont tell you much and are not helpful at all...BTW.. that $40.00 cost for the parts.....add shipping charges to that too...when my unit needed repair I called and explained the problem..they sent me 1/2 the parts..and when I couldnt fix it and called back they said you also need this part.....why wasnt I told and why wasnt it sent??..Oh you didnt ask for them was the reply... more shipping charges.....and when I looked at the parts..sure enough.. they had been used or at least stripped off another unit.. I might add that to ask for express shipping is a waste of time and money.......the clerk fills a requisition when is then sent to the parts place..the parts are packed and then sent to the shipping dept and then to a courier service..(UPS) it took 8 days to arrive..
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Old 03-29-2009, 04:44 PM   #39
Paintpro99
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Well, what I have dreaded has finally happened. My apollo half-time oven has started acting up. The convection oven still works but the microwave does not heat up. It was working fine at noon today when I heated up a bowl of soup but when I tried to warm up a piece of coffee cake tonight, it came out of the oven as cold as when it went in. The microwave sounds like it is working, but is not heating anything. I even tried to heat up a measuring cup half full of water for 3 minutes, and it also came out cold. Is there a fuse somewhere in the back of the oven that might be blown? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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