Shocks or no Shocks

[bsmeaton]

Noticed the "MorRyde Pinbox" thread getting steered into a shock absorber topic and felt it was deserving of it's own thread as it was a hot topic last year. Besides, I don't think Bill's pin box question ever got answered yet.

Question is, should the Mor-Ryde suspension equipped Montana's be provided with shock absorbers.

Common question, as many curious Montana owners take a look under there and uh-oh, no shock absorbers! In fact, there are no towers to connect a shock absorber. After a lengthy conversation with Mor-Ryde engineering over a year ago, I was told that during testing they discovered that shock absorbers distract from the full function of thier RE rubber equalizer system, therefore they eliminated the shocks. Specifically, I was told that Keystone/Lippert uses the LRE version for the Montana which is shockless. This is all well and good - however:

After several years - the Mor-Ryde Web Page still shows shock absorbers on thier RE system http://www.morryde.com/php/products/...ations/RE.html and they claim fame at the bottom of thier web page http://www.morryde.com/php/products/...owables/RE.php that Keystone Montana proudly uses the RE system, yet in Mor-Rydes own words, it is an LRE system. For this very reason, I personally steer away from any Mor-Ryde product, as I'm not sure they even know what they sell or why it works.

Open for discussion - I really don't know the shock answer and it might be good to hear what others have found out.

[BB_TX]

It will probably be this weekend before I will get a chance to go look at mine. But I still think I remember seeing shocks on my '07 3075RL just like the pictorial shows. But then again, the old brain cells are not what they used to be.

[richfaa]

We had a seminar by the Mor Ryde folks I believe at the 2006 Fall rally and they did present data that said that shocks detract from the Mor Ride LRE suspension... When told that the web site showed Shocks and not the LRE suspension there was a rolling of eyes and a admission that the web site was incorrect. Sounds like a job opening for a web administrator at Mor Ryde. In answer to Bills question......Mor Ryde says ..NO.

Now if anyone installed shocks on their camper that has the mor ryde LRE suspension and it improved the ride.....then it did.. Bounce has not been a problem for us in the 3400 on some of this countries worst roads. Mich, Louisiana, Alabama, Oklahoma. A Chat with Mor Ryde on the subject may shed some light on the subject.

[mail2us]

Brad and others,

I sent an email in early December 2007 on MorRyde's LRE system that is on our 2008 3400RL. Below is their quoted response that I received back that may shed some light on their position and this discussion:

"Thanks for your letter. The LRE system is very similar to the RE
system. It is actually the next generation of the product. There are
some differences in components, however, the function of the product is
the same.

The LRE system works by using a rubber shear spring to isolate and
absorb road shock. The rubber spring is attached via shackles to the
leaf spring. As the leaf spring deflects in response to road inputs,
the rubber spring also deflects. This provides for increase suspension
travel (up to 4" of travel) as well as increased isolation of road
shock. The result is smoother towing and better protection of the
trailer from damaging road shock as the energy is absorbed before it
gets to the frame, sidewall, components and contents of the trailer.

While the LRE works on a vertical plane, the MOr/ryde pin box system
works on a horizontal plane. Montana recently started offering the
MOr/ryde pin box system on their 08 models in an effort to further
enhance driver and passenger comfort. The Mor/ryde pin box travels 3"
horizontally to address the jerking, chucking and bucking that can occur
when towing a 5th wheel.

Both of these products can be seen on our website. Or, we can send you
additional information in the mail. Please let us know if you like for
the info to be sent."

It doesn't directly address shocks or no shocks but maybe of interest to all. Dennis

[bsmeaton]

Thanks Dennis!

It is the same technical explanation I got from them 18 months ago, but I never could have remembered it as well as you have posted.

"The LRE....is the next generation...". It is actually identical to the RE only it is missing the shocks. Given testimony that they discovered the shocks impaired the operation of the shear spring, it is reasonable to assume the LRE is a FIX to the previous RE system (which I almost installed on my 2003 but could never get a straight answer from them).

I realize they need to cover themselves for all of the RE systems they sold with shocks while simultaneously justifying why the LRE does not have shocks, but I would think they should just "fess up" and tell the RE owners they need to remove thier shocks to make the product effective, or tell the LRE owners it was a mistake to produce the product without shocks, whichever is most applicable as the truth.

Whew - sore spot . Don't get me wrong, the ride is wonderful - without shocks.

[mail2us]

In further confusion to me was that the Morryde reply somewhat suggested to me that LRE and the MorRyde kingpin are related with the vertical/horizontal explanation given. My kingpin is Lippert? Am I incorrect with this tie-in? I simply don't understand it all.
I unfortunately more often than I should look at many company shifts in product as economical rather than improvement.
Tks. Dennis

[Leaseit]

Brad, sure glad you opened this thread and ask the queston about why no shocks. "Rubber Springs" or Leaf Springs absorbe kinetic enegery (Road Shock) rather than transfer that shock to a frame. Only problem is they also dissipates that enegry back down after absorpton. Think of a rubber band. Shocks limit that energy and do not release it back to the axle and tire. Shocks on axles keep the stored up energy in a spring from creating oscillations. Think of the old time screen door spring when its slamed shut after being open and how it act Oscillates.
Having said that and reading that responce about "Rubber Shear Spring" if i had my choice i would sure put a shock on any axle that has any Leaf springs or " Rubber Springs" that absorbe shock. Rubber and spring steel are "reactive" materials, they store energy where as shocks do not.

[MacDR50]

The dampening effect of shock absorbers has to do with either forcing a liquid through an orifice which causes the energy of the road shock and vibration including that stored in the springs to be converted to heat or are gas shocks that simply compress the gas which again transfers energy to be released as heat. MorRyde on their site claims up to 30% better dampening than a steel equalizer system. The question is where is the energy going. Leaseit suggests back into the suspension like an elastic band. In essence no dampening takes place except to spread the shock and vibration over a greater distance which smooths it out over time yet not reducing the actually total energy by converting it to heat. Adding shocks to this system would reduce this movement because less energy would be imparted to both the springs and MorRyde shear spring as it would be dissipated as heat by the shocks absorbers. The danger is creating a system that is stiff (reacts too slowly and therefore transmits the shock rather than dampening it) or is too reactive which creates a higher resonance frequency which may actually transmit more of the energy to the frame and the contents of the trailer. It is an interesting problem and I for one am not sure if the solution is readily apparent. There are a lot of variables here so, for me, more study is required.

[blarkman]

These are two different systems, RE and LRE, the RE system uses only the rubber block as supplied by Moryde. The LRE is a different system. Morryde can supply the shocks and upper shock brackets, but you must buy the lower shock mounting plate from Dexter, so if you want to add shocks you have to go to each of them. I got the idea fromlooking at my friend 2005 Everest rear kitcheb rv and saw the shockson it
bob

[bsmeaton]

Bob,

According to Mor-Ryde (direct question per telecon), our Montanas have the LRE version, which is a shockless version of the RE http://www.morryde.com/pdfs/RE.system.brochure.pdf . Here are the installation instructions for an RE (has shocks) http://www.morryde.com/pdfs/updated/...structions.pdf

I understand that the standard leaf spring increases in resistance as it approaches flat, and that Mor-Ryde has simply come up with a way to delay that rate of increased resistance by allowing their product to intercept and absorb some of the spring motion through the shackle. It essentially increases the resistance curve of the spring by nearly 50% by increasing the available up and down travel of the axle by nearly 50%. In fact, the side to side "roll" in my 2007 is drastically increased over what my 2003 was when going through a dip in the road. I think this excessive "roll" is what causes some of the kitchen slides on the recent models to tip out in turns and then slap back in causing microwaves to launch out of the cabinet.

I'm still not understanding where the advantage/disadvantage of shocks come into play. At the rally last year, Mor-Ryde said shocks actually defeat the shear spring capabilities, yet Mor-Ryde uses shocks on their shear spring systems, quite possibly on the Everest.

I think Dennis may have the best answer yet - "I unfortunately more often than I should look at many company shifts in product as economical rather than improvement". It may all boil down to the fact Montana has the "cheaper" version of the Mor-Ryde, and for truly best benefits, shocks should be added.

Perhaps the Mor-Ryde rep at the rally felt trapped between Keystone standing their and the customer standing their, so he used his best POOMA reasoning.

[Leaseit]

Roger,
Yes the MorRyde would absorbe part of the shock from the leaf spring, but the problem i have is that rubber is a hysteresis material and dosen't dissipate energy to heat as does a shock absorber. Your point is spot on about having shocks that are so stiff that they end up transfering more energy and travel back to the frame. Other that testing the set up in a test environment to find the right match, the only other way would be to do live in use field testing by the owner/installer to figure out the right shock set up to use.
It sounds like Brads older unit didn't have the side to side roll/bounce that his new unit does, whitch i would suggest is energy recoil from the spings and possibly the MorRyde.
Oh heck brad, throw some shocks on the thing and do some testing.. (KIDDING)

[BB_TX]

Well I couldn't stand it. I had to go look at mine last night to see if it had shocks or not. It doesn't. I guess I was thinking of SOB's I had seen when we were shopping around. So I guess I have the LRE system. But as I have mentioned before, there is no evidence of bounce or shock as drawers and doors stay closed and nothing in the cabinets or refrigerator is ever out of place. So I don't think I would ever consider changing anything about it.

[bsmeaton]

Should I dual shock it like my old Bronco was in the front?

As far as the roll, I really think it is the additional travel from the Mor-Ryde. Both trailers - same storage area on same road with same drainage dip in the road at an angle and same TV. I always slowed down with the old one just make sure I didn't knock stuff over in the kitchen cupboards. First time I went through with this one at the same speed I thought I lost it!! I was looking in the mirrors as it leaned way over to the side and actually popped the side cabinet open knocking stuff into the street.

Bill, I agree, it is smooth and I never disrupt too much in the back unless I have to pound the brakes or something.