2009 Montana need wiring diagrams!

[Phil P]

Hello

I am new to the forum.

My wife and I purchased a Chevrolet 3500 Duramax 4 door long bed and Montana 38 footer new in 2009.

We are very happy with the truck and Montana as far as livability and towing ease. Now for the problems they are many.

Within the first 3,00 miles and 2 months we had tire, landing gear, break (fade in the mountains), waist tank level indication, electrical, graphics (peeling) and plumbing (water leaks) problems.

The selling dealer was of little help and was not able to repair most problems. 10 months latter we tried a Camping World that was a Keystone dealer. Their maintenance personnel seemed to be a little more competent. But when they found the waist tank level indicators to be incorrectly installed and would require removal of some of the tanks to repair as near as I can tell Keystone refused to pay for this.

Now the unit is out of warranty and I want to repair the items that are not working.

I am qualified, years of maintenance experience on cars, trucks RV’s and aircraft I am state and federally certified. I hold a Class A CDL and have 500 thousand miles driving 18-wheelers.

My problem is Keystone says they don’t have wiring diagrams for the unit. When I contacted Lippert to try to determine if Keystone had improperly wired their remote control black box or if the box was to light to handle the load I got a smart mouth person that refused to help and would only tell me to send $250 for a new unit. The wheel and axel manufactures have been very helpful and I have the tire problems corrected. The frame manufacturer will not give me the information on where to jack this frame so I can change the axles out for axels with disk brakes. The waist tank level indicator manufacturer has been very helpful but they understandably so cant help with the installation problem.

The electric wiring in this unit 12 and 110 is horrible and needs to be corrected but to try to do so without some technical information is not a good idea.

Has anyone here had any luck getting wiring information from Keystone?

Phil P

[bncinwv]

Sorry Phil, no such animal exists, oh and welcome to the forum. If you can get a little more specific with your electrical questions, I am sure that someone has been there and done that and will chip in with advice and suggestions. As for jacking the rig, I used jack and block combinations and blocked the rig up in front and behind of the axle assemblies. I don't think the location is that critical as long as the rig is supported in a safe, fashion. If in doubt, you could always add more blocking locations on each side.
Bingo

[Art-n-Marge]

Simple answer. There are no wiring diagrams distributed, ever, and we won't expect any.

Many owners (including me) have corrected or improved wiring, upgraded circuitry, cleaned up some wiring (removed several ft of coiled wire stuffed into a cubby hole somewhere) and replaced fixtures.

Most of this work is shared on the forum for just about any part you can think of. No wiring diagrams except an occassional one for how to connect a satellite dish into the RV circuitry.

I don't have anywhere near the years of experience like you have and haven't had too many problems correcting stuff or making mods as needed.

Before starting any work, submit your ideas to the forum and you'll get some great hints and experiences what to do, what to avoid and you'll find you're gonna do just fine. We love reading about what others have done to their rigs.

[Phil P]

Thanks

I have another question.

What is this RVIA medallion on the side of this trailer supposed to mean?
I have ac and dc wiring in the same bundle. This hardly meets anybody’s code or standards.

What is a RVIA certified maintenance person supposed to know about working on these things?
I had to teach the techs at the selling dealer how to use an ohmmeter then had him tell me not to plug my 50-amp unit into a 220volt service or I would burn it up. When I tried to tell him that the 50-amp service is 200volt and the trailer just didn’t have any 220 appliances in it he says, “If you were RVIA certified you would know better”.

Phil P

[Wild Horse]

ummm....ok, please clarify your last post please ? Thanks !

Your waste level indicators....most of us "live with it". Wiring diagram...ain't gonna happen, ever.

Lots of knowledge here tho', everyone willing to share.
Bill

[NCFischers]

Phil,
Welcome to the forum. As the others have stated, no diagrams exist. That just makes it more interesting to trace things out. I've been an electrical contractor for a long time and can tell you that diagrams don't exist for houses either. As far as the level indicators, I've never paid attention to them. They're mostly unreliable and this isn't unique to Keystone. As far as all the wiring that's left behind things, it just makes it easier to do mods.
Jim

[Ishler]

Phil
As others have said the sensors are unreliable the only thing I have found to work is to replace them with these.
http://www.horstmiracleprobe.com/

[exav8tr]

Phil, I have been fulltiming for 4 years AND I still have the stock sensors. Can't and Don't rely on them. When water appears in kitchen sink, I drain the galley. When water stands in shower, I drain the gray tank. When toilet "burps" I drain the black.. Problem solved. Fresh water is pretty accurate still.. Just make sure you dump before moving each time, even a little water in tanks slushing around while moving is not good for the structures. Some folks will dump a bag of ice in toilet before moving and let it slosh around to help clean tank. Your choice on this one. Good luck and "Welcome to the Best Darned Forum on the WWW!!!!!

[Phil P]

Hello Wilde Horse

I don’t know what needs clarifying.

You can’t run AC and DC conductors in close together like a bundle of wires. It will eventually cause a fire. Chris Craft demonstrated this many years ago at their plant in Pompano Florida.

As for the RVIA.

When we were looking for a RV unit to purchase we were reputedly told not to purchase one without the RVIA medallion. We were told the builders without the medallion were building inferior products.

As for the maintenance people.

How can a RVIA certified electrician not know how to use an ohmmeter, or know what a 220Volt service is?

Waste tank level indicators

My level indicators are consistently wrong. They are working as designed to work. But they can’t give you an accurate indication if they are installed in the tanks in the wrong locations. New or aftermarket probes will still give the same errors because the holes are in the wrong location. Some of the tanks will have to be removed in order to drill new holes near the top.

Phil P

[Phil P]

Hello NCFishers

The last 2 houses I have owned did have wiring diagrams included with the blue prints for the building. In this state this is normal. The electrical contractor that deviates from the drawings can do so but it is a normal procedure to note the changes on the drawings. This is the result of law suites field by purchasers in the past and not a regulation.

It sure makes things easer when the present owner wants to make changes to the building.

Phil P

[indy roadrunner]

I have owned 4 different RV's in my span of camping life all of which were different manufactures. None of those 4 tank level indicators ever worked right.I think one of the reasons is that paper or other things gets stuck on the sensors.
Wiring - tour the factory and watch them install wiring and you will understand why there are no wiring diagrams. It depends on who lays the wire on any particular day of how it gets installed. As for RVIA certified techs at CW, they had to breath on a mirror and be able to sign their name with at least an X to be certified.

[BB_TX]

quote:Originally posted by Phil P

.............
You can’t run AC and DC conductors in close together like a bundle of wires. It will eventually cause a fire. Chris Craft demonstrated this many years ago at their plant in Pompano Florida.
..........

This is interesting and I have never heard it before. I worked as an electrical engineer 35 years for a large safety control system vendor supplying systems for the power industry to prevent boiler explosions. We always ran very large bundles of wires together with AC and 12, 24, 48 and 125 VDC mixed. And we worked closely with other vendors integrating our systems with theirs, and they too did not separate the wiring. Even 50 conductor cables running hundreds of feet thru the power plants contained mixed voltages. Hundreds of systems supplied over those years and never any issues with it.
As far as wiring diagrams and/or schematics, it is still hard for me to believe Keystone does not have some type diagram or, at least, wiring chart for wiring the units. Can't believe it is totally up to each tech to wire as he/she pleases.
However, I had a minor wiring problem on my unit when new. Dealer quickly corrected the problem, although it took his techs a while to trace out the wiring. I ask him for a wiring diagram. He tried to get one from Keystone. But he could not get one either.
I guess I have been fortunate. That is the only problem of any significance I have had in almost 4 years.

[Phil P]

Hello indy roadrunner

My only coment is if you have anything sticking to the probes used in my trailer you have much differant probes than mine. These probes don’t stick out in the fluid they are almost flush with the side of the tank. They protrude less than .250 thousands of an inch and the edges are smooth. The probability of paper or anything else getting stuck across them to make them read is very very unlikely. Like I said they do work and they do indicate correctly in accordance with the location of the probes. The problem is the 1/3 probes are in the sidewall of the tank at the very bottom. For this reason they read 1/3 at all times unless you force air-dry the tank. The 2/3 probe is not the correct distance from the 1/3 probs and the full probe is about ½ up from the bottom.

My unit reads 1/3 at all times except the couple of times we dried the tank. When the level indicator reads full the tanks are only about ½. This is consistent. There isn’t enough room between the sides of the tank and other structure to get even an aviation type right angle drill in there to drill the hole for the proper location of the full probe.

The manufacturer of the indicating unit provided me with wiring diagrams and drawings showing the proper location of the probes. The bottom two probes are to be 1/3 up from the bottom of the tank and not located near the dump port. The 2/3 probe a single probe is to be 2/3 up from the bottom. The full probe a single probe is to be 1 to ½ inch below the top of the tank.

My tanks are approximately 10 inches high. This would put the first two probes 3 inches from the bottom of the tank. They are installed as close to the bottom of the tank as possible and still get a good seal on the grommet. If the installer had any idea of what the manufacturer wanted then you would think the 2/3 probe would be about 6 inches from the bottom. No such luck it is about 3 inches and the full probe is only about 2 inches above that. This results in a full reading when the tank is about ½ and 2/3 reading when the tank is 1/3 and 1/3 reading at all times.

If you carefully wash the waste tanks with clean water and then let them dry for about a day you will get an empty reading.

By the way filling the waste tanks with clear water will not tell you if the indicating system is working. Clear water doesn’t conduct like water with waste in it. The potable water tank has a different resistor matrix than the waste tanks. I don’t worry about my potable water tank I keep it full all the time we are traveling. I empty it if the unit is going to be unused for more than a week.

Phil P

[pineranch]

Don't know whether to offer a hug or a 3 hymn's?
Mike

[bncinwv]

All I will add, is that in our last three rigs, I have never trusted the indicators. I have never used the indicators. I will never use the indicators. One last note. If you are travelling with full tanks, I would strongly advise checking the mounts on the tank and reinforcing them. There have been many reported failures of the support straps and having the weight bouncing on them while travelling down the road is pressing your luck.
Bingo

[Phil P]

Hello BB TX

In 1948 Bell Telephone in Broward County Florida had a technician killed by induction voltage on their phone cable because an underground 220 single-phase line had been buried next to it. In about 1960 Chris Craft rolled about a 60 ft yacht out of their plant in Pompano Florid. They had bundled the DC and AC lines in the same bundles in spite of the advice of electrical engineers and electricians. The boat was on the AC shore power when a tech turned the switches on the 32volt battery system. The black mark was still in the concrete 15 years latter. Again the determination was induction from the AC line. Fortunately no one was hurt.

You will notice the phone cables when hung on a pole that also has power are 5 to 6 feet lower than the lowest power line. This only applies to the 4,100 / 2,100 volt local distribution line when you get to the 13,500 volt transmission lines there will not be any additional cables on the same tower. (All voltages are approximants)

Now back to the trailer. If the AC line and neutral were twisted the problem is diminished but they are not.

The DC system is even more of a butchered mess. There was only one 40-amp fuse in the entire DC system. The room slides have circuit breakers in the #8 lines to the pump but no fused protection on the control lines. This is a real concern when you figure those DC lines run all the way from the front of the trailer to the rear stabilizers with no fuse protection except one 40 amp fuse in the front of the trailer.

Phil P

[bncinwv]

Well shucks, guess I will have to take my Montana back and just quit camping?
Bingo

[Phil P]

Hello bncinwv

It looks like maybe Keystone has used some of the feed back from the field. My trailer has 1 ½ inch channel iron running across the trailer under the liquid carrying tanks that actually bear on the bottom of them when you bolt it up. They are on the outside of the insulating blanket.

I seldom move with anything in the gray tanks except when leaving a remote area that doesn’t have a dump station. Then I go to the nearest dump station and dump them. I never move with the black tank full. I always carry a full potable water tank. We don’t drink the water from the water tank we use bottled water. This is left over from boat experience.

Phil P

[Phil P]

For BB TC

The DC systems I am referring to are the room slides, landing gear, awning and stabilizers.

I haven’t gotten into the house lighting etc. There is a dc fuse panel by the entrance door but none of the high draw items previously referenced to are fused at that location.

Phil P

[8e3k0]

We've travelled 100 miles plus with full grey and black water tanks and have had no problem. This was because dumping access and times did not permit. If they are going to tear away from the straps then we will do the reinforcing. Yes there are cross straps.
At the end of the day an RV is an RV where the odd problem seems to creep its way and in the need to be altered or maintained.
Tank indicators work sometimes but generally you go by experiences.
It can be very frustrating to see the RV standards of plumbing, electrical, and structural way way below the automotive industry.