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Old 12-09-2019, 09:47 PM   #1
CADman_KS
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Trying to make sense of towing numbers...

-- WARNING: LONG POST AHEAD!!! --

I've come to the realization that we're going to need to get a new truck to pull our new 5er with, a 3741FK.

I've always been a Chevy guy, but I have really liked the Fords, since they upped their game to a 6.7L. It is an overall bigger truck, which appeals to me. Had a Dodge Gen 2, and loved the motor hated the trans. I realize a lot of that has changed, but I still don't know if I trust their trannies. My son-in-laws father just had to get a new Ram because his tranny let go one time too many.

So, for me, it's down to Chevy and Ford. But that's where the water got muddy. I decided that if I was going to look at trucks, I should do the due diligence and look at ALL of them, so I did that. What is reflected below is the best that I could do or figure out from the information that I could find on the various manufacturers websites.

These are the givens for the chart below:
  • All configs are 4WD Crew Cab (will not consider any cab smaller)
  • All SRW's are short box (this is my preferred setup)
  • All DRW's are long box (I don't think that this will fit in our garage, so that's the big issue with a DRW, and I just don't need an ass that wide)
  • Our 5er weighs 13800 unladen (ran across a scale)
    weighs 15000 loaded (ran across a scale)
    pin weight is unknown, but listed as 2560 (probably light)
  • Max trailer weight is 16500
  • Stuff in the truck = 300
  • Full of fuel = 245
  • People = 200/ea

Green squares indicate who had the "best" value in that column. Yellow lines are 2019 numbers for the Chevy and Ford for comparison.

Here is a pic of the spreadsheet:



So, here's what stands out:
  1. This data is all over the board, and there isn't "clearly" any ONE winner. They all win in some category or another.
  2. I don't know why the big 3 even sell 2500 trucks anymore. Yes, there are campers that would still be under those numbers, and it's probably a lot of campers that fit under those numbers, but the whole 2500 vs. 3500 SRW thing just muddies things up further
  3. The Ford numbers for 2020 make no sense. Both the 250 and 350 have the same 30000 GCVW, but the 250 has about 600 lbs less capacity. But the max trailer on the 250 is about 3000 lbs less than the 350. Something just doesn't add up in their numbers
  4. The 2020 Ford, while being an absolute powerhouse on paper, doesn't really live up to the hype when compared with the competition. The GM 3500 has a HIGHER GVWR, and the GCVW's are almost identical, and the total max towing isn't that much greater on the Ford
  5. But in 2019, the Ford and GM are just about switched around. Same GVWR, but Ford tows about 3000 lbs more.
  6. In DRW models, the 2020 Ford wins in most of my boxes, and that's because the payload is only slightly higher.

Most of the time it's just me and my wife, so we would be in the 2 people range. When we have my mom we would be in the 3 people range, and that's only a couple of times a year.

I realize that we'd close by the numbers when it comes to an SRW, but this will most likely be our daily driver (as in replacing our SUV), so I don't need to be lugging that monster around. The numbers indicate that I should be able to buy either a 19 or 20 Chevy or Ford and be OK.

If I buy a 19, I would have the luxury of being able to look at the sticker and make sure that it all makes sense. When it comes to a 20, if you order one, I'm a little bit leary that I get all of the correct options so that I max out an SRW.

I don't want this thread to turn into a:
  • DRW is better than SRW, or the only way to go.
  • SB vs. LB
  • Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge

I'm looking for any guidance and maybe opinions here. (If I don't like your opinion, I don't have to use it!) If we do decide to order one, what options should we get to maximize everything, for Ford and Chevy. Or, what have others found out towing a 15,000lb 5er with a SRW...

Thanks!!!
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Old 12-10-2019, 05:57 AM   #2
jeffba
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All those numbers and you left out the most important ones Pin weight and how much your truck weighs hitched. You need to hit the scales, period.

had a F350 CCSRW hit the scales. Was right at weight capacity of the truck 11,500. This was without DW, and before W/D and nothing in the bed. What I had loaded in the in teh bedroom, basement and front plus me added up to over 800 pounds. and 48 gallon fuel tank was only half full.

We got a dually.
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Old 12-10-2019, 06:10 AM   #3
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You kind of have a loaded question as you are looking for advice on what to look for but you do not want any comments on a drw vs. srw or ford vs. chevy .vs ram. I'm not sure how to advise but not start the get out the popcorn thing. but Dodge is now Ram and the old problematic series transmissions are long gone.
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Old 12-10-2019, 06:16 AM   #4
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You need to weigh your rig to get the pin weight, it is likely much more than you think. Many rigs I see traveling down the road are exceeding their payload. After calculating the correct pin weight, add a margin and go with a truck that will handle that...
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Old 12-10-2019, 07:07 AM   #5
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Nice spread sheet.


A couple or so mostly personal observation points .

- Most of the new Fords, long bed have a 48 gallon fuel tank. At 7.1 lb/gallon you are at ~341 pounds
- A 3.31 rear axle ratio is not optimal for towing. Mine has a 3.55 and wish it was higher numerically on hill starts
- 300 pounds of 'stuff' is a bit light if you have a conventional hitch at about 200 pounds then decide an aux fuel tank is desired.
- While many do it successfully, having towed with both a SB and LB truck, would never go back to a SB truck even with the longer turn radius, hooked and unhooked. A plus for me is that the LB actually fits in our garage, all be it with no space to spare.


A 250/2500, max GVW at 10,000 pounds is being sold to satisfy state registration and insurance companies and out of pocket costs. Mine is an F250 by badges and 'B' pillar sticker but in reality has a 12,100 GVW by actual OEM part numbers, not 10,000.


Looks like you have enough information to make your best deal with whatever brand you choose.
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Old 12-10-2019, 07:17 AM   #6
CADman_KS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagleback View Post
You kind of have a loaded question as you are looking for advice on what to look for but you do not want any comments on a drw vs. srw or ford vs. chevy .vs ram. I'm not sure how to advise but not start the get out the popcorn thing. but Dodge is now Ram and the old problematic series transmissions are long gone.
Thanks for the reply!

Not to get into a battle here, but I see a lot of SRW's towing large units like ours. I realize that does not mean that they are inside the limits.

Maybe a better question is this: Is it possible to stay inside the limits of an SRW? The numbers that I have in the spreadsheet, seem to indicate this. We are not full timing, and for the most part, are not going far. Our longest trip would be 180 miles one way.

What I also find a little bit upside down in the numbers is that you can PULL a trailer that weighs 24500 with a Ram, but the pin weight on that is 5000 lbs, and you're immediately over the payload. Ford is the same way. 22000 trailer, but pin weight is 4400, and you're over the payload. What is the point in rating the truck to be able to pull weight that you could never actually get setup?

It's maybe that I don't want a dually, as much as I need a place to park it. It would become our daily driver (for my wife, forgot to mention that), and she doesn't want to drive that around.

I'm aware that Ram is using a different transmission now. If I was going to get a Ram, it would have to be with the Aisin. I have gotten spoiled with the Allison in my Chevy. It is 100% bulletproof.

I'm just trying to make sense of all of this and understand it. There's obviously people out there who have a lot more experience in this than I do, since I've never been in this situation before.

Again, appreciate your input. Thanks!
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Old 12-10-2019, 07:18 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butchy View Post
You need to weigh your rig to get the pin weight, it is likely much more than you think. Many rigs I see traveling down the road are exceeding their payload. After calculating the correct pin weight, add a margin and go with a truck that will handle that...
I KNOW the weight of my truck (fully loaded), and I know the weight of my 5er fully loaded. I do not know the pin weight. I do need to get that weight...
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Old 12-10-2019, 07:32 AM   #8
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The 2020 GM numbers are way up....
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Old 12-10-2019, 07:48 AM   #9
CADman_KS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave W View Post
...


A 250/2500, max GVW at 10,000 pounds is being sold to satisfy state registration and insurance companies and out of pocket costs. Mine is an F250 by badges and 'B' pillar sticker but in reality has a 12,100 GVW by actual OEM part numbers, not 10,000.


...
This is the kind of information that I'm looking for, and don't understand at the end of the day. The "stuff" that I'm trying to make heads or tails of.

I don't see any Ford 250's listed as 12,100, even on their website. So, how does one get this arrangement?

I did do a little bit of reading on the 10,000 yesterday, and it seems to me that this only applies to vehicles that are being used for commercial / CDL purposes. BUT, if you buy a 10000 GVW truck, then you're stuck with the payload that comes along with it, as near as I can tell...
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Old 12-10-2019, 08:10 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CADman_KS View Post

I don't see any Ford 250's listed as 12,100, even on their website. So, how does one get this arrangement?


You will never see a 250/2500 listed/'B' pillar stickered above 10,000 pounds GVW. It's only by actual part numbers that you will find anything above that figure. It took me hours to find the rear springs on a parts list and their capacity. Mine has both the camper and 5er packages. I tow our 5er a bit above the 'legal' limit


I did do a little bit of reading on the 10,000 yesterday, and it seems to me that this only applies to vehicles that are being used for commercial / CDL purposes. BUT, if you buy a 10000 GVW truck, then you're stuck with the payload that comes along with it, as near as I can tell...


In NY State, any vehicle with above a 6K GVW is to be licensed as a commercial vehicle. The reasoning I was given is that it keeps these heavier pickups off the NY City area parkways that only allow automobiles and 150/1500 pockups - but that part may be urban myth. The 6K commercial plate licensing part isn't.





****************************
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Old 12-10-2019, 08:13 AM   #11
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With out getting into the Chevy - Ford - DRW - SRW thing - If you are truly looking at 2019 models they are gone or going fast. I bought a new Chevy 3500 in August as they were on sale with big incentives to get rid of them before the 2020s came out.

The truck "I" bought fits "MY" needs and does what "I" need it to do. Its probably not the truck some would say "I" need but.....
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Old 12-10-2019, 08:17 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave W View Post
You will never see a 250/2500 listed/'B' pillar stickered above 10,000 pounds GVW. It's only by actual part numbers that you will find anything above that figure. It took me hours to find the rear springs on a parts list and their capacity. Mine has both the camper and 5er packages. I tow our 5er a bit above the 'legal' limit
OK. I understand now.

Basically converted your truck to an F350 SRW.

As I said in my OP, the 250 SRW vs 350 SRW thing really muddies the waters. As a "consumer" not a commercial entity, I'm not for sure why you would buy a 250/2500 of anything. But, there are a LOT more of this combination sold than anything else.

I just don't understand why consumers aren't buying the heavier payload trucks by default. In our state, we can't even get a 10K GVW tag. They start at 12K GVW, and go up...
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Old 12-10-2019, 08:21 AM   #13
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you are over thinking this whole thing.

Keep it simple, any 2020 one ton diesel truck will do you just fine.

Even the 3/4 2020 GMC will work, look at the test that Trailer Life did.
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Old 12-10-2019, 08:29 AM   #14
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I wish I could shed light on your really good thought pattern. When DW had finally whittled down our decision to either a 375RES or 3791RD and then all my reading at the Grand Design and Montana forums, I knew my '09 F250 was not going to be in our stable long. She said "I see 250/2500 class trucks all day long pulling same 5r". It was an uphill battle with her to get the new truck! Our pin weight is 3,300# loaded. That's 400 over their book specs. If Ford or Chevy make a 4.1 rear end, you'll get higher pull weight but not pin. If I were you, I would go with the highest payload but make sure you are comparing the same trim packages. Also, clearly look at the gas 2 wheel drive version. They are coming out with a 7.3 liter gasser Ford super duty.
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Old 12-10-2019, 08:33 AM   #15
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Ask the Ford dealer about this truck
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...v8-specs-info/
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Old 12-10-2019, 08:38 AM   #16
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You stated you do not want a dually so there you have it.
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Old 12-10-2019, 08:39 AM   #17
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Your own spreadsheet is telling you to go with the Ram if you want to stay with srw.
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Old 12-10-2019, 08:42 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by masterdrago View Post
I wish I could shed light on your really good thought pattern. When DW had finally whittled down our decision to either a 375RES or 3791RD and then all my reading at the Grand Design and Montana forums, I knew my '09 F250 was not going to be in our stable long. She said "I see 250/2500 class trucks all day long pulling same 5r". It was an uphill battle with her to get the new truck! Our pin weight is 3,300# loaded. That's 400 over their book specs. If Ford or Chevy make a 4.1 rear end, you'll get higher pull weight but not pin. If I were you, I would go with the highest payload but make sure you are comparing the same trim packages. Also, clearly look at the gas 2 wheel drive version. They are coming out with a 7.3 liter gasser Ford super duty.
Yeah, that's where I'm going to be with my DW as well.

As for the gasser, I just can't do that. When towing, the diesel pickup will absolutely walk away from that gas motor, AND it will not sound like it is about to blow itself up doing it.

I've owned diesels for a LONG time, even some cars, and at the end of the day, the real difference is that diesels make power effortlessly. We have a gas SUV now (had a diesel SUV before this), and even driving them when not towing is different. The gasser just sounds like it is about to explode when you want it to do work. The diesels just get it done.

Towing is about torque. Has nothing to do with HP. With that being said, the HP of the 7.3 gasser and the 6.7 diesel are not actually that far off, and the diesel is over TWICE on torque. It wouldn't even be a fair fight...
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Old 12-10-2019, 08:49 AM   #19
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Your own spreadsheet is telling you to go with the Ram if you want to stay with srw.
LOL. You are correct.

But, upon further investigation, the 2020 GM and Ram are very very close in all the numbers, except MAX towing. But, it goes back to, how does the Ram have such a higher max towing compared to everything else? If that is the max towing, you've exceeded the max payload with pin weight. Math doesn't add up.

And, I don't need that much max towing anyway. My trailer max is 16,500 anyways, so I don't need more than that, which all of the 250/0 can handle, BUT they can't handle the pin weight. SMH...

I didn't say this in my OP, but I do like the idea of a 10 speed transmission. I think that would be the ultimate towing slush box. It should be able to drop down a gear on small hills, and not over-rev the engine like my current truck does. Then again, it probably doesn't need a 10 speed transmission when it has over 900 ft-lbs of torque...
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Old 12-10-2019, 09:06 AM   #20
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I am also a SRW guy, since my HOA will not allow a Dually. I have had 2001 F350 for 18 years, which I just sold. I order a 2020 RAM 3500 SRW yesterday (will be 16 weeks, but has everything I wanted).

TFLTruck YouTube channel has lots of good real world test, for all the Trucks, you might want to take a look at. They test max loads up a 7% grade.

On the RAM you want to stay away from the 68RFE Transmission, it can't handle the torque. I ordered the Higher Output Cummins which is matched to the Aisin Transmission.

I don't think you can go wrong with any of the Big three, I would stick to the F350 or 3500 though, there isn't that much price difference. On the RAM the High Output Cummins is only available on 3500 and above.
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