I'm just not getting it

[richfaa]

These are RECREATIONAL Vehicles not designed for full time or long time use . We will have 400 SF to deal with and we must adapt to that.

[phillyg]

I would hope, but I'm not convinced, the designers use consumer input when designing floorplans. I think designers should be forced to live in a mockup of their plans before they're sent to manufacture, but we know that doesn't happen based on some of the idiosyncrasies we deal with on a daily basis. We've seen all kinds of crap in 40 years and multiple RVs. So yeah, we don't get it either.

[DaveK]

Understand your frustration. We looked at RVs for two years and hundreds of floor plans. I was so frustrated, I began drawing a floor plan to send to them. After looking at 5th wheels, we came very close to an ideal long term floor plan. We bought a Montana High Country 330RL (331RL has residential fridge). Montanas are warranted for full time living. I know many who live long term in their 5th wheel and enjoy them.
Yes, these rigs are abused as people drag them on rough roads, and they are built light weight. Nothing's perfect. Your stick built house couldn't take the abuse RVs take on the road.
I also agree that some things could be improved.

[RichR]

I did just the opposite changed from queen to King- to each his own.

[mtlakejim]

Originally Posted by phillyg

I would hope, but I'm not convinced, the designers use consumer input when designing floorplans. I think designers should be forced to live in a mockup of their plans before they're sent to manufacture, but we know that doesn't happen based on some of the idiosyncrasies we deal with on a daily basis. We've seen all kinds of crap in 40 years and multiple RVs. So yeah, we don't get it either.

I totally agree with you on this one. The designers should have to live in them!!!! Or at least use them occasionally!! They seem to be exempt from that idea sorta like politicians are exempt from the laws they make......

[DaveK]

Interesting topic. Agree.
I found that some RVs are great for a week but not for a month. Your camping style will gradually dictate what floor plan you like.

[richfaa]

Originally Posted by mtlakejim

I totally agree with you on this one. The designers should have to live in them!!!! Or at least use them occasionally!! They seem to be exempt from that idea sorta like politicians are exempt from the laws they make......

Keystone does take input from us at the fall rally and they have over the years made changes based on that input. Unfortunately
Keystone does not custom build RV's to our individual needs. There are manufacturer that do.

[Clark 2012 346LBQ]

I have learned how to adjust things around to my own perspective. I didn’t mind the smaller refrigerator but I did mind the smaller freezer because when we travel I want to guarantee we have enough food to last. I don’t want to stop enjoying myself to go find a store and waste a day doing so.
I took the refrigerator out of our outside kitchen and replaced it with a freezer. It takes the same space as the refrigerator but I adjusted. We wanted to cut time out of set up and tear down so we drilled a couple holes into the back of cabinets to run cords for our computer. Every rig will need adjustments made. Make it your own. Do what needs to be done to adjust to your rig and your situation. We have cats so we deal with a litter box in the bathroom. And I made cat scratching posts to go around our table legs. Again get the best for what you can afford and adjust it to what you need.

[CADman_KS]

Originally Posted by richfaa

These are RECREATIONAL Vehicles not designed for full time or long time use . We will have 400 SF to deal with and we must adapt to that.

I might disagree with this statement a little bit.

I think that most of the Montana plans are "designed" for full time or long time use. When you have 5er's that are over 40' long, only sleep 4, and only sit two at the table, that's not designed for glamping. That's designed for TWO people living it.

With that being said, the part that they may be missing is the storage aspect of living in a small space. A lot of the newer campers don't have as much storage space, it seems anymore, at least not on the inside.

The other thing that a lot of new campers don't have are larger kitchen areas that you can actually use to cook in. Maybe no one cooks inside their houses or RV's anymore...

[mtlakejim]

Originally Posted by richfaa

Keystone does take input from us at the fall rally and they have over the years made changes based on that input. Unfortunately
Keystone does not custom build RV's to our individual needs. There are manufacturer that do.

Rich,
What did my comment have to do with custom builds? I was agreeing with someone who had said that the RV designers don't have a clue. I think that most folks on here will agree with that!

No matter what your floor plan is or what your taste in interior colors happen to be, nearly everyone on here has bumped their head on an ill placed door or tried to open an outside storage with their hands full. There are a LOT of things that you would immediately realize are poorly designed IF you had actually camped even a day or two in one of the rigs!!!

I'll give you one real simple example, the double latch exterior storage doors on our unit require you to drop whatever your carrying to unlatch them (it takes two hands at once). Anyone who has ever camped would know this is a bad design DAY ONE!!

[jeffba]

Originally Posted by CADman_KS

I might disagree with this statement a little bit.

I think that most of the Montana plans are "designed" for full time or long time use. When you have 5er's that are over 40' long, only sleep 4, and only sit two at the table, that's not designed for glamping. That's designed for TWO people living it.

With that being said, the part that they may be missing is the storage aspect of living in a small space. A lot of the newer campers don't have as much storage space, it seems anymore, at least not on the inside.

The other thing that a lot of new campers don't have are larger kitchen areas that you can actually use to cook in. Maybe no one cooks inside their houses or RV's anymore...

Okay look at the kitchen here. How are you going to prep food here?

https://www.keystonerv.com/the-ultimate-montana/

[CADman_KS]

Originally Posted by mtlakejim

...

I'll give you one real simple example, the double latch exterior storage doors on our unit require you to drop whatever your carrying to unlatch them (it takes two hands at once). Anyone who has ever camped would know this is a bad design DAY ONE!!

That's a great example. However, as a recovering engineer, I know that some things might not always be as they seem.

I would make the assumption that there has to be two latches on the wider doors so that they stay shut and don't leak. BUT, the two latches could be tied together so they could operated with either latch...

[CADman_KS]

Originally Posted by jeffba

Okay look at the kitchen here. How are you going to prep food here?

https://www.keystonerv.com/the-ultimate-montana/

LOL. There isn't even enough space to put the pizza take out box!!!

[mtlakejim]

Originally Posted by CADman_KS

That's a great example. However, as a recovering engineer, I know that some things might not always be as they seem.

I would make the assumption that there has to be two latches on the wider doors so that they stay shut and don't leak. BUT, the two latches could be tied together so they could operated with either latch...

Happen to be an engineer myself. As such, I can say that if you don't use what you engineer you are likely to poorly design what your engineering!

I suspect that you are correct that the latches are positioned to keep the wide doors water tight and the fact that they are slam shut is actually a good thing I would think to most folks. But as you also mentioned they could have designed them (with very little thought I might add) to operate from a single handle. All they had to do was look at truck tool boxes as there are several models of those that are in fact designed to be opened from either side of a truck. No doubt the designers of the truck bed boxes had actually used the boxes and realized "gee folks might want to open the box from either side of the truck". Sometimes its just a common sense thing ya know. I know for a fact, I am not the only person who has stood with an armful of stuff in front of one of those RV double latch doors and thought dang it you mean I have to put this stuff on the ground to open this stupid door!

[CADman_KS]

Originally Posted by mtlakejim

Happen to be an engineer myself. As such, I can say that if you don't use what you engineer you are likely to poorly design what your engineering!

I suspect that you are correct that the latches are positioned to keep the wide doors water tight and the fact that they are slam shut is actually a good thing I would think to most folks. But as you also mentioned they could have designed them (with very little thought I might add) to operate from a single handle. All they had to do was look at truck tool boxes as there are several models of those that are in fact designed to be opened from either side of a truck. No doubt the designers of the truck bed boxes had actually used the boxes and realized "gee folks might want to open the box from either side of the truck". Sometimes its just a common sense thing ya know. I know for a fact, I am not the only person who has stood with an armful of stuff in front of one of those RV double latch doors and thought dang it you mean I have to put this stuff on the ground to open this stupid door!

Agreed 100%!

Probably the thing that drives me the craziest is things that are really simple to fix, and they don't...

[mtlakejim]

Originally Posted by CADman_KS

Agreed 100%!

Probably the thing that drives me the craziest is things that are really simple to fix, and they don't...

Yeah like that dang control center door that swings out in front of the entry stairs on some models!!! It was DESIGNED to be a head banger! Sometimes its just the simple stuff.......


Which brings up the point, if they can't get the simple stuff right, how much confidence do you have they got the important stuff right??

[Dave W]

I have to agree that the basement slam latches could have had a little more thought put iinto their design. It only took pne outing before I figured out that you needed two hands free before you started. But, that front compartment with a key and twist to open latch then hang it on a hook? C'mon, Keystone, that's 1950s design.


The full 'L' counter is why we have a High Country instead of the usual. The dealer had a line up of Montana's and nary a one had a counter, only a very small island. The only other 5er in his pretty large lot that had a full counter was a Forest River's Crusader.


Looking at that one of a kind - all I see is a blinged out entertainment unit, unusable by any average campground joe that I know. All in white? Not for our lifestyle. And that fancy bath sink - we already have one just like that in our '14. My guess, didn't look, is that the same Lippert frame and running gear is still under that unit.


On the Ford Truck forum, a member is showing in progress photos of his New Horizon being built. Except for the home built frame, I really don't see much different construction methods then our "low buck" fivers to justify two and a half times as many dollars - aluminum and wood framing - same as ours.


My wife has said that a woman didn't have a say in any brand RV.

[mlh]

I’ve had many people call the shop and suggested changes to a product. They never suggest a change that wouldn’t add to the costs sometimes doubling the cost. I always listen and discuss it with them and ask how much they would be willing to pay for the change.
If you can make a change draw it up and make one then send it to Montana. If it will work and doesn’t add to the cost they will use it, if it’s something that will improve their products and is something that can actually be made on a production basis they will use it. That is a BIG order. Try it.
Lynwood

[vipermanden]

Lynwood, I agree with you, I used to own a manufacturing company, and the customers always wanted more for less money. Heck a decent car or truck goes for around 50k and up now! Every nut, bolt and screw is engineered to be just right and these cars and trucks have robots doing most of the precision work. There is no automation to speak of in the 5th wheel industry, so you have a lot more chances of human error. There are so many manufacturers and so many brands and floor plans out there, that they can not possibly have engineered these things to the degree our cars and trucks are. For what we are getting, I am amazed the prices are not double what they are! Maybe they should be, and maybe then the construction would be better? I see Thor buying up so many companies, but they are not combining them into a bigger single brand where the economies of scale would warrant the use of more automation and better quality control. All they are doing is skimming off the profits of all of these small companies by reducing the quality of the subcontracted items that go into them. So it all boils down to the fact that if you are going to buy a 5th wheel, you should expect to do many of the repairs and modifications yourself.

[mlh]

Thanks vipermanden. You have been around the block more than a few times.
Lynwood