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10-22-2020, 04:57 PM
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#1
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: ladson,SC
Posts: 201
M.O.C. #26644
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BLACK TANK SENSORS working again -Here's how
My Background--30 years commercial detergent manufacturing and sales , including commercial dish washing and laundry machines.
My sensors for the black tank ,as you are all aware suck...When the tank was empty they ALL still read FULL.
Here's what i did ....
For the last 3 Tank Dumps i added besides the regular toilet tabs...about
1/2 cup of Tide High Efficiency Laundry Detergent . (Only cause my commercial detergent was unavailable on my trip )
Then before traveling to my next stop (about 5 hours).
1....added 1 1/2 minutes of Flush Water to my Closed Black Tank
2....added 1 regular toilet tab
3...added 3/4 cup tide HE-detergent.
DO NOT ADD ANY DETERGENT THAT IS NOT BRANDED "HE" meaning high efficiency .
The detergents are really NOT high efficiency .
They are made specifically for side loading laundry machines that would normally generate lots of suds. These detergents are LOW SUDS and will not foam in the tank.
So as you drive and splash the water the "SURFACTANT" in the laundry detergent will penetrate the SCUM on the sensors and clean them up.
The role of a Surfactant is to reduce the surface tension of water so it will penetrate surfaces that hold the water back...
Example:.... When it rains..the water bubbles up on the hood of your car. Add a tiny bit of surfactant and the water's reduced surface tension will cause it to flatten out and sheet off the car .
The laundry detergent is slightly "alkaline" and that also helps brake down the poop. To boost the alkalinity you could add 1/4 cup of Electric dish washing detergent (also low sudsing )
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10-22-2020, 05:42 PM
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#2
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Site Team
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Colorado Rockies
Posts: 1,929
M.O.C. #19755
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Interesting information, thank you. I didn't know all this, but I have always put some laundry detergent in the tank along with water as we begin the last leg of a trip. When we get home, dump and flush thoroughly. I still don't trust the sensors or even look at them; I do this to make the dumping process work better.
__________________
Scott & Alta
2017 Montana 3160RL, Legacy, Onan 5.5Kw, Solar
2022 F-450 Lariat Ultimate
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10-22-2020, 05:55 PM
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#3
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: ladson,SC
Posts: 201
M.O.C. #26644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottz
Interesting information, thank you. I didn't know all this, but I have always put some laundry detergent in the tank along with water as we begin the last leg of a trip. When we get home, dump and flush thoroughly. I still don't trust the sensors or even look at them; I do this to make the dumping process work better.
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Do Not use regular sudsing detergent.
As suds is generated it has a water content. The more suds the more water is used up to make suds.. Hence you will loose some splashing and scrubbing action as the water is tied up to make suds.
Also any remaining water will be "CUSHIONED" by the suds
QUICK FOOT NOTE..most of the time i just LISTEN to the sound of the toilet flush to tell when the tank is full..but now who knows with the lights working.
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10-22-2020, 06:17 PM
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#4
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Austin
Posts: 2,433
M.O.C. #21044
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Great info - thanks.
What is your “toilet tab”? Is that just a tank deodorizer? Does a different tank deodorizer affect your recipe (lots of different tank treatment option out there)
Also - somewhere in the past I came across a similar thread on some forum where the guy suggested using Calgon fabric softener/water softener. Would like your take on that idea. I have added Calgon a few times in the past but certainly not regularly. I never noticed any difference for my tank sensors.
__________________
MikenDebbie Aggie ‘77 in the sticks near Austin TX
2019 Chevy 3500 High Country DRW
2018 Montana 3921FB
Aussie Gus + Texas Heeler Jimmy
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10-22-2020, 06:34 PM
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#5
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Site Team
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Colorado Rockies
Posts: 1,929
M.O.C. #19755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForBruce
Do Not use regular sudsing detergent.
As suds is generated it has a water content. The more suds the more water is used up to make suds.. Hence you will loose some splashing and scrubbing action as the water is tied up to make suds.
Also any remaining water will be "CUSHIONED" by the suds
QUICK FOOT NOTE..most of the time i just LISTEN to the sound of the toilet flush to tell when the tank is full..but now who knows with the lights working.
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All we use is HE detergent; at home and take it with us on the road.
__________________
Scott & Alta
2017 Montana 3160RL, Legacy, Onan 5.5Kw, Solar
2022 F-450 Lariat Ultimate
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10-22-2020, 09:33 PM
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#6
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: ladson,SC
Posts: 201
M.O.C. #26644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikendebbie
Great info - thanks.
What is your “toilet tab”? Is that just a tank deodorizer? Does a different tank deodorizer affect your recipe (lots of different tank treatment option out there)
Also - somewhere in the past I came across a similar thread on some forum where the guy suggested using Calgon fabric softener/water softener. Would like your take on that idea. I have added Calgon a few times in the past but certainly not regularly. I never noticed any difference for my tank sensors.
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the tab is basically just a deodorizer. Most of the time an enzyme or bacteria will not have enough time to work properly.
There was a hotel in New York City that had a "GREASE / crap" trap that was about 10 foot by 10 foot and about 8 foot deep. I was involved in the project.
We sprayed a "EATING" bacteria to reduce the scum. But after 3 days a lot of buildup was still there.... until we found a way to stir the mixture every 4 hours.
When i get I get a chance i will introduce a high akalinity into the tank to speed up the process..but you still need movement to slap the water against the soil.
A fabric softener (like Calgon) imparts a slightly oily substance into the fabric to give it a soft feel..like towels at a pool club. But at the same time this tends to WATERPROOF the fabric making it harder to clean the next time around.
There is enough oils in poop without Introducing more into the tank
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10-22-2020, 09:36 PM
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#7
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bee Branch
Posts: 2,620
M.O.C. #20693
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ForBruce,
Fellow Chemist here. I spent 40 years in the oilfield chemical business (last 10 as the customer). Sold a LOT of surfactants in that time. The foaming action recommendations make a lot of sense to me. Nice write up. I would suggest some inhibited HCL added to the mix but that's not something the average person could get hold of.
__________________
James & Irene Wilson
Bee Branch, AR.
2017 Ram 1 ton diesel duallyCrew Cab/Long Bed
2018 Montana High Country 381TH Garage Full of Toys
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10-23-2020, 07:24 PM
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#8
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: ladson,SC
Posts: 201
M.O.C. #26644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtlakejim
ForBruce,
Fellow Chemist here. I spent 40 years in the oilfield chemical business (last 10 as the customer). Sold a LOT of surfactants in that time. The foaming action recommendations make a lot of sense to me. Nice write up. I would suggest some inhibited HCL added to the mix but that's not something the average person could get hold of.
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unfortunately HCL is acid in nature ...and since this soil (poop) is organic in nature (was once living or came from a live person)
you will need something akaline that has a surfactant and a anti-foam agent to surpress the suds.
Acid based products will work better on non-organic soils . Rocks, copper , minerals , etc
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10-24-2020, 09:01 AM
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#9
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bee Branch
Posts: 2,620
M.O.C. #20693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForBruce
unfortunately HCL is acid in nature ...and since this soil (poop) is organic in nature (was once living or came from a live person)
you will need something akaline that has a surfactant and a anti-foam agent to surpress the suds.
Acid based products will work better on non-organic soils . Rocks, copper , minerals , etc
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I was thinking of the acid more for CaCO3 scale deposition on the sensors IF the water had high Calcium content. Fairly common to find that in many areas. It is the most common mineral scale that creates white deposition in water systems (or bathtubs). I am not suggesting using the acid treatment every time you dump only once a year or so depending on how hard your water is. But you would have to know what your doing to use it so not really practical for most folks.
Methanol works well as a cheap defoamer. Commercial defoamers are usually a bit pricy Silicon suspensions.
__________________
James & Irene Wilson
Bee Branch, AR.
2017 Ram 1 ton diesel duallyCrew Cab/Long Bed
2018 Montana High Country 381TH Garage Full of Toys
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10-26-2020, 03:01 PM
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#10
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: ladson,SC
Posts: 201
M.O.C. #26644
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MTLAKEJIM------ little off topic
Have been formulating A non-streeking , non-sun glaring , non-hazing car/truck windshield cleaner and surfactant is one of the items used. THe one iam using is somewhat pricey..any ideas
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10-26-2020, 03:04 PM
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#11
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: ladson,SC
Posts: 201
M.O.C. #26644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtlakejim
I was thinking of the acid more for CaCO3 scale deposition on the sensors IF the water had high Calcium content. Fairly common to find that in many areas. It is the most common mineral scale that creates white deposition in water systems (or bathtubs). I am not suggesting using the acid treatment every time you dump only once a year or so depending on how hard your water is. But you would have to know what your doing to use it so not really practical for most folks.
Methanol works well as a cheap defoamer. Commercial defoamers are usually a bit pricy Silicon suspensions.
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Phosphoric acid with very hot water will remove the calcium deposits....but in cold water takes forever.....problem is you don't know what anyone has in their tank to begin with....like bleach which will make poison gas..... and don't know what formaldahyde and acid will do
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10-26-2020, 07:17 PM
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#12
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Austin
Posts: 2,433
M.O.C. #21044
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What if you dumped a gallon of white vinegar into the tank and let it slosh around during travel. That might help loosen some calcium scale - wouldn’t it?
__________________
MikenDebbie Aggie ‘77 in the sticks near Austin TX
2019 Chevy 3500 High Country DRW
2018 Montana 3921FB
Aussie Gus + Texas Heeler Jimmy
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10-28-2020, 12:37 PM
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#13
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: ladson,SC
Posts: 201
M.O.C. #26644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikendebbie
What if you dumped a gallon of white vinegar into the tank and let it slosh around during travel. That might help loosen some calcium scale - wouldn’t it?
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while white vinegar is a acid . It is a weak one at that and good only for coffee pots where the water is very hot to activate the acid....
in cold water --GOOD LUCK ON THAT
before you put an type of acid in the tank make sure it is free of al chemicals so you don't generate poison gas of any type..
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10-28-2020, 02:20 PM
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#14
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Established Member
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Livermore
Posts: 23
M.O.C. #25912
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Great information! Thank You! My black tank sensors have read '2/3' since about our third trip out in our current 5'er. In my last two 5'ers, same thing... I've just come to expect it, and like others judge by the sound of the flush, number of days out, frequency of use etc. I do look forward to trying this method!
Happy travels, and again, thanks for the great info about using HE detergent!
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10-28-2020, 03:12 PM
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#15
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New Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Davison
Posts: 1
M.O.C. #14599
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Just use Happy Campers Organic RV Holding Tank Treatment and you won't have sensor or dumping issues. Also makes dumping nearly scentless.
https://www.amazon.com/Happy-Campers...NsaWNrPXRydWU=
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10-28-2020, 04:12 PM
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#16
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Mt. Vernon
Posts: 253
M.O.C. #6179
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Took a screen shot of your information for future use! Thanks for posting!!!
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Donna Ziegler| Dennis(DH) |Lizzie|Kimber|Remy|Sasha (DFB)
2011 Montana 3400RL|2020 RAM 3500 4X4 6.7 Cummins Turbo Diesel
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10-28-2020, 05:32 PM
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#17
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Seasoned Camper
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Fort Dodge
Posts: 52
M.O.C. #22980
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Only had the problem once.
The first time out in our 381th I ended up having all sensors reading full. I did some research and felt the problem was that I wasn't using the system properly. I now have a routine I follow and have not a problem since. 1st, I put 5 or 6 gallons of water in the tank before putting any solids in the black tank. I also make sure we are using plenty of water with every flush of the toilet. When I dump I run the black tank flush until the water runs clear. After dumping I put about 5 or 6 gallons of clean water back into the tank to slush around while going down the road. When I am close to home I dump again. To clean the sensors when I had the original problem I put about 8 gallons of water in the black tank, drove around and then dumped. No problems since. I also started to use a product called Happy Camper, seems to be doing a good job since I started using it. I strongly believe the most important step of black tank maintenance is to make sure you get plenty of water in the tank with the solids. I work in the pharmaceutical industry and have worked with water systems for use in the industry. I am very cautious about adding chemicals to any system. I would want to be careful with the PH of whatever I am dumping from my tanks into who ever's septic system I am dumping into so I do not cause problems in those systems. This is just how I have corrected the problem, everything good since.
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2018 Ford F350 Diesel Dually 4x4
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10-28-2020, 05:40 PM
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#18
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: ladson,SC
Posts: 201
M.O.C. #26644
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the question comes---can you damage seals or blow the tank open if you fill the black tank with the FLUSHER while the drain valve is closed
Well if the hose can fill at about 5 gallons a minute and you keep the flusher on for 1 1/2 minutes you should have about 7 1/2 gallons of water in the black tank which normally can hold about 40 gallons...
You now have an AIR SPACE that the remaining 32 gallons of water would have take up. ( you have filled only 19% of capacity)
since air is easy to compress as compared to water ..in my humble opinion i don't think you come anywhere near causing damage
PER THE POST JUST ABOVE.....the only chemical i add extra is Laundry detergent ( no bleach) which will not damage a septic system
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10-28-2020, 06:04 PM
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#19
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Established Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Anaconda
Posts: 27
M.O.C. #18095
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Impossible to”compress “ water or air unless the tank vent is clogged. If you overfill the water will come out on the roof from the vent and at some point the toilet valve will be forced open leaking water/sewerage inside
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10-28-2020, 06:45 PM
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#20
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Seasoned Camper
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Fort Dodge
Posts: 52
M.O.C. #22980
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I just use a hose end water meter, picked it up for about $15. I use it for a lot of applications including adding water to the black tank. If you don't want to buy one just put a gallon of water in your stool to get an idea of what a gallon looks like in it then just add that amount 5 or 6 times to the tank by flushing the stool. Not saying any other method is wrong, just what I found solved my problem. I don't get anything from "Happy Campers", a lot of folks on line recommended it so I checked into it. Check out their web site, kind of interesting (that is if you find reading about black and gray tanks and septic systems interesting).
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2018 Ford F350 Diesel Dually 4x4
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