Very unhappy with new AC system!

[bigskyjimmy]

You should move down to Disneyland and take up permanent residence In RV Fantasy Land, I not saying it is right that we have to make these "tweeks" but it it is what it is and if you are not a bit of a handy man and do not take advise on how to fix these things you are in a world of hurt and you should not be a Rv'er , these RV's are not built by Robots like the Car MFG's they are built by low paid "Amish Craftstmen" buy any brand you want you will you be in the same situation,I have been lucky and all three of My Monty's has had minor Problems that I taken care of myself if I gets to big for me I have a Extended Warranty and let the pro's handle it and My great RV life moves on "Get busy living or get busy Dying"

[jameswbarton]

My My My... Take some Valium Big Sky, I certainly took your and others advice on the ceiling vents and appreciated the information. The information I received from this site has been very helpful.

You all should make a full coach owner checklist covering tightening all the suspension, springs shackles, lubing the axles, re-labelling the dump valves, throwing away the new tires, cleaning and adjusting the AC ducts etc.etc. It would be really helpful to a new owner to know what needs done after you take delivery. Maybe some picture albums would be helpful. The search function on the site takes a while.

BTW it is too hot in Disney right now for My AC to keep us cool.

Thanks for the help but pass on the Rhetoric!

However I do doubt that you have owned every brand and likely have friends all like yourself as you seem a little insulting to someone who just wants to learn about a Brand He never owned hoping He did not buy a Fix or Repair Daily Product.

[richfaa]

We have owned 6 RV's two of them Montana's.Helen and I worked the RV show at the Cleveland IX center for several years for various dealers selling various brands.

We became members of the MOC forum Jan 2005 and purchased our first Montana May 2006. We were on the forum most every day reading every post learning as much as we could about the Montana.

Since we live within 300 of Goshen/Elkhart we toured about every RV plant before we decided on the Montana. We observed they were pretty much the same workforce, vendors, manufacturing process
We also joined several other owner forums. we wanted to be educated on whatever we purchased.

From this forum we knew about all the things you mention from this forum before we purchased. The first thing we did was change the OEM bathroom door assembly so as not to be locked in the bathroom. Lug nuts, shackle bolts, tires it was all here.It came with the famous Mission tires we knew about the failure rate it was logged here.

What made us choose the Montana was a visit to the service center and our Dealer in Clyde Ohio. We decided that the Montana was no better no worse than any in the price range but the service at least at that time was outstanding.We are not handy and fixing things so the Extended warranty was a must and they have served us well.

We said there were no surprises as we were as educated as we could be on the Montana and RV's in general. There were no surprises but many disappointments and there still are.

What disappoints us the most is the lost time and lost adventures due to the Down time for repairs.

We are in the dealers shop Wednesday for repair of all that failed on our recent 5K mile 38 day road trip. Failed gray tank, the screen door fell apart and we lost one wing of our bat wing antennas along the way.That will, be about 1,000 $$$ most of it covered by our extended warranty. We could have replaced the bat wing but I did not want to send Helen up on the roof in the hot sun to replace it.

Such is life in the RV world.

[Golfmedik]

I know that they are in business to make money just like any other business, but the quality control could be better and when something new, like a new style AC unit is introduced, test it first! My unit went online on Thursday morning and came off the line on Monday. The factory is closed on weekends. Less than 24 hours to build a rig like this. A little fast?? I'll leave that up to you. With the list of things my dealer has to repair, I'm still ok with. Not being able to come into my $75k, brand new camper, after a 4 mile hike and get cooled off, makes me livid!
I do think that Dometic should be held responsible as well. Across three different manufacturer forums now, these units with this style of ducting JUST ISN'T WORKING. As I stated before, the new Sandpiper at my dealer just had the new "fix" that I posted a couple of weeks ago, done to it. It left the dealer yesterday, so we'll see if it returns and how happy the owner is.
I'd like for this thread not to get closed due to bickering as we are trying to figure out who knows what about this predicament. For those with the older AC units thank goodness you have them! I have another 31 ft TT toyhauler in the yard that cools exceptionally well on one AC unit. Both Sandpipers, the 355QBQ and the 365SAQ units would run you out of it, but not these. This camper is supposed to be a lot more insulated than the others mentioned, so that in itself says quite a bit.
Thursday when I go to the dealer, there will be lots of discussion about this I'm sure. A few friends have asked me about why not just ask them to change the units out to the old ones and have the ceilings cut for the unit. That sounds great, but remember, these units are taller than those made just a couple of years ago. They have to have a lower profile AC unit on top because of height restrictions.
I'm still trying to figure this out as several of you are. Let's keep it cordial and bounce idea around until this gets solved.

[kozzy]

I have the 3950 as Well, was in the outer banks 2 weeks ago, with outside tempos in the 90's, with both AC's on, during the day, in bright sunlight (Beach) unit was reading 73 degrees inside. I have cold air returns for both units, 2 in front, and 2 in the rear. The 2 vents that blow air directly above the bunk house, I removed them, and covered them with white duct tape to close them off, since my kids were getting to cold with out blowing so close to them. I did notice a huge difference in the coach cooling once I closed those vents. I always removed the cold air return covers, and vacuumed a ton of saw dust and debris out of the ducts. I do need to take the advise of james, and check the sensor of my upstairs thermostat, as I believe it is reading tempos from inside the wall, I plan to do that next week, and I bring my camper back home from camp. While the cooling seems to be adequate for my unit, it seems to me like it should be better. This past weekend at camp, temps were in the high 80's, and I was only on 30 AMP, I had the rear AC on for cooling, and the front on, just in fan mode on HI. That did keep the coach cool enough to be in it during the day, around 75 degrees. all of these comments make me think if I do a little more trimming on some vents, etc, might make this AC perform the way I think it should, or maybe I am naive thinking this should be the same as my central air at my house..

[richfaa]

18 Montana's come off the assembly line every 8 hours so was stated at the last fall rally. Naked frame at the first station complete Montana at the last station at one time it was 22 per day.
Think about that.

[Golfmedik]

quote:Originally posted by kozzy

I have the 3950 as Well, was in the outer banks 2 weeks ago, with outside tempos in the 90's, with both AC's on, during the day, in bright sunlight (Beach) unit was reading 73 degrees inside. I have cold air returns for both units, 2 in front, and 2 in the rear. The 2 vents that blow air directly above the bunk house, I removed them, and covered them with white duct tape to close them off, since my kids were getting to cold with out blowing so close to them. I did notice a huge difference in the coach cooling once I closed those vents. I always removed the cold air return covers, and vacuumed a ton of saw dust and debris out of the ducts. I do need to take the advise of james, and check the sensor of my upstairs thermostat, as I believe it is reading tempos from inside the wall, I plan to do that next week, and I bring my camper back home from camp. While the cooling seems to be adequate for my unit, it seems to me like it should be better. This past weekend at camp, temps were in the high 80's, and I was only on 30 AMP, I had the rear AC on for cooling, and the front on, just in fan mode on HI. That did keep the coach cool enough to be in it during the day, around 75 degrees. all of these comments make me think if I do a little more trimming on some vents, etc, might make this AC perform the way I think it should, or maybe I am naive thinking this should be the same as my central air at my house..

While in Wisconsin the second week of July, I was parked beside another 3790RD Legacy Package just like mine. I've known him for quite sometime and he knew about my problems. Every day during the week, mind you we were on 50A then, his rig was a minimum of 8* colder than mine with the units set on the same setting. What wasn't funny was the day it went to 92* outside. My temps soared to 84* on the inside and his stayed at 76*. It's just frustrating. I know these don't sound like much, but when you expect a 5er that you've upgraded to to be as nice or nicer than the older one you just left. I've always waned a Montana due to it's reputation, but so far this one has been a let down. I know it's just AC units, but it gets HOT here as it does in the lower parts of the 48. I use this rig for 3-5 days every three weeks and at least two other 10 day vacations a year. This bothers me as I want to be comfortable when we are trying to relax. I still say the units are getting cold enough, it's just the reduced flow that is the culprit.

[bigskyjimmy]

I always been a "half full" kind of Guy and Sarcastic at times and always have been I am just a realistic RV owner that knows what I am getting into with these things and so do my friends with their SOB's and i try to help folks when they have a problem OR Ask If need help myself,I just choose not to go on and on complaining about something, vent about it one time if it makes ya feel better then fix it and just "Keep Truck'in"

quote:Originally posted by jameswbarton

My My My... Take some Valium Big Sky, I certainly took your and others advice on the ceiling vents and appreciated the information. The information I received from this site has been very helpful.

You all should make a full coach owner checklist covering tightening all the suspension, springs shackles, lubing the axles, re-labelling the dump valves, throwing away the new tires, cleaning and adjusting the AC ducts etc.etc. It would be really helpful to a new owner to know what needs done after you take delivery. Maybe some picture albums would be helpful. The search function on the site takes a while.

BTW it is too hot in Disney right now for My AC to keep us cool.

Thanks for the help but pass on the Rhetoric!

However I do doubt that you have owned every brand and likely have friends all like yourself as you seem a little insulting to someone who just wants to learn about a Brand He never owned hoping He did not buy a Fix or Repair Daily Product.

[kench]

Might as well throw my 2 cents worth in. While at the dealer recently after the tech diagnosed my a/c system and his report was "seems ok" I showed him what the restrictions were at the cold air outlet. I convinced him to cut about 3/4" off the height of the outlet grille and it made a great difference. The cold air seemed to be there but too much restriction to get it where we wanted it to go. In this post I saw the suggestion of one fellow who cut 6" pieces of abs drain pipe and inserted them with couplings to open the size of the cold air ducts. I am going to try getting a piece of 1 1/4" polyethylene pipe about 32" or so long warmed up so it is as flexible as possible as it may be easier to insert this in the duct. I will heat it with warm water rather than a flame type heat so it will not change the characteristic of the polyethylene. 2016 3790RD Legacy Edition. I am looking at ABS laundry drain covers to replace the factory diffusers and considering the Spaceport units as at least there is the ability to close them off. I have 2 oulets in the elevated living room, 4 in the extremely high kitchen area 1 in the bathroom and 2 in the bedroom so if I use 2 of the adjustable spaceport units each in the bedroom and living room I can at least close of the bedroom and living room cold air if I want to cool the kitchen area. I will let you know how all this works out when I get the RV back from the shop. Trying to get my Norcold Refrigerator below 46 degrees and the Thetford toilet to retain water in the bowl after we flush it. If anyone knows of a Thetford refrigerator owners forum Please let me know.. Greetings from Canada.

[jameswbarton]

I just returned from the third warranty dealer unfortunately without my coach that is still waiting parts to fix some minor issues. My AC's are now doing this: ( inside roof temperature 90 degrees ) Rear Blizzard NXT 15,000 BTU ducted return AC has 78.2 degree return air and 50.8 degree supply air for a temperature differential of 27.4 degrees. The front AC a Penguin II 13,500 BTU AC has the return air at 75 degrees and the supply air at 46.7 degrees for a difference of 28.3 degrees. So my air conditioners are working quite well compared to when I first set up the coach on 2 June. I can safely say the on my Montana I get at least 25 degrees of cooling from each air conditioner.

To get my system working properly.
1. The front and rear AC air flow dividers needed to be properly installed.
2. The ceiling vents needed the repairs mentioned in other posts cutting off the collars and foil taping the vent to the duct without obstruction. Big Sky has a great writeup on how he did his vents. I am still toying with the idea of putting in 5 1/4 vents instead of the 4 3/4 vents.
3. 1 vent was added to bring my total vents up to 8 as per Dometic Specs.
4. Both single zone thermostats had to be removed insulated for the big hole in the wall and remounted.
5. My ducts have now been scoped and cleaned with no leaks from end to end.

The Warranty dealer is jealous stating that he has never seen a system work as well, in this heat mid 90's with high humidity, with my current AC cooling temperatures. I guess he learned something.

While I was there we discussed the changes in Montana's in recent years and also we took some readings with his IR thermometer. My HC has a tan roof, tan sides, black slide sides, large areas of black striping.
The IR thermometer proved I should have special ordered mine with a white roof, white siding, and white slideout roofs. The deep darker colors make over a 15 degree temperature difference in roof temperatures and you can measure a 5 degree inside wall temperature difference from the tan outside area to the black areas.

So all of the Classic Pure White older Montanas have a tremendous advantage in cooling capacity with two AC's.

The last dealer also sells Forest River Products. The service department tells me that Thor and Forest River are both almost identical in their Quality issues, and horrible warranty performance and if you were thinking of buying Jayco they now have been bought by Thor!

So now i am shopping for window awnings or sunscreens and BTW I just found out there are now only two mfrs. of awning. You can have your choice of Dometic or Carefree but if you listen to those service guys the choice is Dometic or Dometic.

[Golfmedik]

The one thing my camper does not have is the duo-pane windows. I thought this may be part of the problem until Wisconsin. It made only a 2* difference with the windows being in direct sunlight. One thing I have thought of that I am going to do is tint the windows with a residential/commercial window tint. I have a sunroom on the back of my house that we did several years ago and the difference is incredible. It not only blocks 95% of the UV rays, it blocks 60% of the heat, and helps with the cold air in the winter too.
James, I must have missed it, where did you put the other vent in your rig?

[jameswbarton]

My hallway to the rear bedroom was way hotter and had no vent. I could not get one in the hallway but put it in the kitchen as close as I could to the hall and directed the air to the hall as much as the vent allowed. The vent duct is over the bathroom hall wall mostly inside it. Now there are 4 identical vents on each duct so they should have equal airflow out of all being a pressurized system. I am in a quandry as to whether I do the Big Sky wire in each vent, but I think I may try to go with 8 larger 5 1/4 inch vents with adjustable louvers and airflo. They cost about $10 ea and would give more airflow and also be adjustable. JR makes a version go to http://jrproducts.net/index.php/cata.../Cool%20Vents/ Also my rear AC had to be removed to check/fix the air separator. The cheapest way is to do Big Skys duct mod cutting out the fins and using a diffusing screen.

On windows I had to have every one of 15 double pane windows removed and defogged on an 8 year old coach. It cost over $3,000.00. I did not want double pane again as I am planning on awnings or sunscreens and will use insulating foil on the outside/inside if I have to winter in the cold again.

Look in home depot window section of drapes and blinds you will find a product called Gila Foil. It is an easy to apply window tint a lot of my motorhome buddies used in the SW.

MY IR temp gun says my biggest issue is the main ceiling and slide ceiling temperatures now that the AC is working. I am not ready to paint the roof white or buy slide covers. In the few winters with heavy snows I had thousands of $$$ damage due to snow and ice dams in the slide covers. I am too old to climb up and shovel a wet slippery roof so I did not buy any slide awnings. I am going to take a big white bedsheet and do some temperature tests unig the sheet as a slide cover to see what temp diff it makes.

[bshgto]

quote:Originally posted by jameswbarton

I am sorry you all have had such a time with air conditioning. While this is my first fifth wheel, it is far from my first RV. I guess Scotty, Terry, Coleman, Coachman, Fleetwood, Fleetwood Tioga, Fleetwood Southwind, and Alfa Leisure, brands are just not in your "all RV's have" Category. All of their AC units worked better than my HC 375FL's. This "brand new" highly advertised "four season, full-timing friendly, quiet cool air conditioning" that could not cool 9 degrees below outside temperature of 85 degrees the day I brought it home. They state they are "The Quality Leader in the industry". I might dispute that claim so far with a manufacturer that won't answer a warranty phone answer an email, and has had my RV in the shop over 1/2 the time I have owned it.

I hope some of you did not mean to be insulting, but if you want to be helpful I asked for help. Many of us have owned OB's and had no issues, I know from years ago this held true with Montana's. Otherwise if you think I am making this stuff up then please get all of your friends to buy a new 2016 Montana HC 375 FL just like mine from General RV with locations in 5 states.

Of course there is also another possibility that Keystone does not hear enough issues from its customers to improve their manufacturing process. IMHO You should not have to repair, replace all the tires, do extensive PDI lists, cause the dealer won't fix them later in a timely fashion, on something you paid $75,000++ or more for.

So I defer to you Montana Fanatics and Legends who seem to think it is acceptable for keystone to not honor their customers, by fixing their manufacturing issues.

I agree 100% percent I have taken all the registers off and the air flow improved and I`m just going to leave them off the temps have not improved and can`t get more than 12 degrees differential until the sun goes down. Re-taped the shoddy work from the factory at the A/C and no improvement in temps. I went to Lowes and bought their foil backed plastic insulation and cut pieces that cover the tops of all my slides, some improvement in how long it takes to cool the camper down 12 degrees. Covering all heat vents tomorrow to see if that helps, it might but I dought it will make the camper any cooler just cool sooner.I just went out and looked inside all my duct work with a flash light, I just started to laugh If I could figure out how to get my cell phone pics on this post I would. What I saw.... misaligned duct work at the A/C unit(I can`t get to this} a hole to the attic at this transition. At every joint of the duct work it is miss aligned and air is escaping into the attic no tape it looks like they just stuck the ends together and one place looks like the duct was stepped on on the side cause it`s mashed down, the duct on the right has something in the duct that covers half the volume> I can`t get it to move with a fish tape. All these joints are not near any outlets the only way to fix this is to take the ceiling down. Implied warranty should cover this crappy work (I know about this issue I was in business for 30 years)but it won`t If I call it will be "I`ve never heard of this before and sorry your out of warranty" Maybe I should drive to Goshen to get it fixed,NOT.

[jameswbarton]

Hi Brian,
The duct splices in my unit are not good but they are not severe enough for Keystone to consider an issue. You would have to be rubberman to get anything into the ducts to repair them. I am not sure I would want a small dealer to remove 1-2 ceiling panels over a wall so I accepted their evaluation that they were not a problem. They were able to scope my ducts and they are intact not leaking.

My rear AC was installed wrong and the baffle plate was misaligned letting supply air and return air to mix. I am glad my ducts were not crushed. One owner fixed his by inserting pipe to expand it back to its original shape.

I now have both AC units dropping temperature from supply air to return air by over 27 degrees. My inside to outside temperature is almost 20 degrees in full sun. I still have to have all blinds shut and all duct covers off to achieve this.

My next step will be to replace all the ceiling vents with larger vents and either borrow, rent, or buy an airflow meter and hood to insure I have the 670 cfm airflow coming out the vents. I am still waiting on a Dometic Engineer to review my installation info and measurements and make improvement comment. I call every couple days and hear how busy they are stuff.

BTW do you have an infrared digital thermometer. They sure help troubleshooting. I got a cheap one from Harbor Freight for about $30 on sale.

I am also planning to find a way to identify air leaks. In my last RV I could reverse all the ceiling vent fans to pressurize the interior and go around the exterior felling for cold air. I suppose I could try both vents on full exhaust and try to find areas where heat is coming in? A user smoke test would be nice to see if we have areas that need resealed or insulated.

[bshgto]

Considering what`s going on in Louisiana and California this A/C problem is nothing those people have a real problem, we are just whining. Anyway, I have identified 3 areas that need to be addressed IMHP so I`ll just cut more round vents at the problem areas so I can tape or repair the holes and squashed duct its the only way (I would not pay or trust a dealer to fix this) and just cap the holes if it effects the air flow but it might help. I`m going to let the whole A/C thing ride until next year and see if the temps come down to normal if not I`m going for the 3rd A/C I`m out of warranty and Keystone will say I`m void because I put water filter on the plumbing and it effected the air conditioners anyway.

[jameswbarton]

"bshgto" I do not know about you but I am just trying to get what I paid for while it is in warranty. Pretty much a useless exercise with Keystone though.

[jameswbarton]

Today a Dometic System Engineer responded to my detailed inquiry about the supply area free space. Using two AC's together on the raceway ceiling ducts. I also asked specifically about the quantity and placement of ceiling registers to meet minimum specifications and optimum airflow.

The engineer informed me that the registers used by Keystone Montana are approximately 12 sq. inches of free space. He stated that his calculations showed each of my AC Units needed about 42 sq inches of supply free area or a total area of 84 sq. inches free area. My 7 registers calculated at 80.5 sq. inches of free area so my HC 375 FL is close to the Dometic minimum requirements.

We then discussed optimizing my system and He suggested the addition of 2-3 more identical registers located in the warmer areas making a total of 10 ceiling registers. He thought this would give me optimum airflow through each AC unit and allow the rear unit, that tends to freeze up to run the fan on auto versus high.

[Golfmedik]

Last weekend I had another incident with the AC system. It was on 30A and the rear AC was being used. During the night, the thermostat was set on 57 and on HI.(I know, really too low). The unit was at 79* and the outside temp was 89* during the day. We had a carpet drying fan(squirrel cage type) moving air around in the camper. I woke up to take the dogs out at 5am and the outside temp was 73* and the inside temp was 78*!!!! I reported it to my dealer while I was dropping the unit off to have the sidewall flex identified, and they called Dometic and Montana. Dometic advised go ahead and change the thermostat, so they did that today. Montana still says nothing wrong with the system. So, we'll see if this changes anything. Only problem is that cooler weather has some and it won't be that hot again for several months.

[Golfmedik]

We camped last week in the mountains of NW GA, and the temps were in the mid 70s to low 80s and the best the AC units did was 6* below ambient. Measured by thermostat, thermometer and infrared thermometer. Talked with the dealer today and showed them pics of all of the temps and they were contacting Dometic and Keystone today. Dometic is going to send out two new units if the test the dealer does comes back bad. The rig is having the sidewall repaired now and may take a little over a week before it is delivered back to my dealer. I will let you know.

[Golfmedik]

The rear AC unit will not cycle the compressor once it kicks off when it is in the FAN mode. They are in discussion with Dometic now to see if a board or the entire unit with be replaced. This has been going on all summer!