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Old 12-11-2019, 06:06 AM   #41
CADman_KS
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Originally Posted by masterdrago View Post
Talked with the dealer yesterday. The new 7.3 gasser will not have the carry capacity for the Montanas.
Max fifth wheel is 16,200 with 3.73 gears on an SRW. Can get to 20000 with 4.30 gears on a DRW.

Gas for towing just doesn't make sense...
 
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Old 12-11-2019, 06:47 AM   #42
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Attached is a spreadsheet I use to keep track of my weights. Top section is weights from a scale with/without 5th wheel. With an 1 ton SRW I am 100+ overweight on my gvwr. I see a lot of 3/4 ton trucks pulling heavier rigs than mine so I would not be too concerned about a little overweight. Don’t trust the dry weight specs from the brochures, my rig is 500 lbs heavier on the pin than specs loaded with all my crap...
Nice spreadsheet!
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Old 12-11-2019, 06:51 AM   #43
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Off topic slightly...

Does anyone know if the numbers that Keystone puts on the trailer decal are the ACTUAL numbers for that unit, or the theoretical - "we weighed the first one of these and it weighed XXXXX", so that's what gets put on all labels for a particular model?
I looked at the placard today, and it doesn't offer any information for the actual unit. I thought that the actual and pin weight were on there. They are not. It's just the MAX GVWR of the trailer, which for my unit is 16,500.

I'll have to go and weigh the pin weight, which I need to do anyway...
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Old 12-11-2019, 02:54 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by CADman_KS View Post
I looked at the placard today, and it doesn't offer any information for the actual unit. I thought that the actual and pin weight were on there. They are not. It's just the MAX GVWR of the trailer, which for my unit is 16,500.

I'll have to go and weigh the pin weight, which I need to do anyway...
Your pin weight will change EVERY time you load up for a trip. I know myself, sometimes I take the genny/coolers full of ice/extra chairs or whatever. Some times I don't.

Maybe its just you in the truck. Next trip its you, your wife and 3 in the back seat. Some trips may be with full water, some empty. You get the idea.

For this reason everyone should be using the GVWR or the camper to determine what truck has the capacity to do the job.

16,500lbsx20%=3300lbs pin weight
16,500lbsx25%=4125lbs pin weight

I assure you it will NOT be less that 20%. And to make matters worse, the camper pin is only part of the picture. You must include any and all weight added to the truck, such as fuel/people/hitch/firewood/genny etc.

The following #s will of coarse very, but just a possible example:

So at 20% of camper GVRW =3300lbs pin+you @175lbs+your wife @150lbs+ 3 in the back seat at @150ea+hithch @200lbs+bed of firewood @500lbs=4775lbs. Clearly above the CCC of any SWR pickup EVER made.

Hell that's within 200lbs of my duallys CCC (just shy of 5000lbs)

Another consideration is your rear tire capacity. They may very well be exceeded before your CCC
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Old 12-11-2019, 09:30 PM   #45
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I'm a newbie and have yet to purchase our 5er or truck. We would have made the leap into the RV world years ago, but my work-related position was such that didn't allow me to take a lot of time off. Being fully retired, I've been in the full "due diligence mode" for several months. We don't want to make a misinformed blunder, as this is a huge financial investment/outlay that we'll be making. We've been to 4 RV shows this year, including Hershey in September, as well as going to other shows in past years to keep abreast how the manufacturers were developing their product lines.

We've compared the Grand Design 310GK (35 ft / 15K GVWR) to the Montana 3120 (comparable specifications). I've scoured forums to specifically learn as much as possible about matching the RV to the TV. I've PM'd folks to get their thoughts about their SRW and DRW setups. Their knowledge base has been very enlightening/helpful. I've spent untold hours watching numerous YouTube videos by Big Truck/Big RV and TFL Truck, etc., as well as following some of the full-timer's that document their travel adventures. This group typically have the larger RVs and DRWs. To me, the videos of the test drives don't dig into the numbers very much and are marginally helpful.

I've arrived at the conclusion that my "pucker factor" boils down to the payload capacity of the TV and what will do the job that will keep us safe and be within the legal capacities of both the RV/TV. Having settled on the Montana 3120, I began to research the TV manufacturer's web sites to cull specifications of the SRW SB, LB and DRW's.

I'm agnostic when it comes to the TV and whether it's an SRW or DRW. From what I found the manufacturer's specs are pretty close to each other. I then used a spreadsheet to calculate a number of scenarios. I used the max RV GVWR of 15K lbs as the "worst case," since I don't yet know how much weight I will really be towing in the real world (I can't to to a scale to weigh something I don't own). For the TV payload, I used 600 lbs for passengers and 400 lbs for cargo - total of 1000 lbs. (again, don't know how much will be in the TV). 25% of 15K lbs fully loaded has a hitch weight of 3750 lbs and the low end of 20% is 3000 lbs. I figure that I'd likely fall somewhere in between these numbers.

For the purposes of illustrating what I've learned, using weight specs from the 2019 RAM towing chart (which I realize will need adjustment from the actual TV sticker), the RAM 350 (6.7 HO Diesel/Aisin tranny) SRW SB (7622 lbs curb wt., GVWR 11800 lbs., payload 4180 lbs.) calculations exceed the payload and GVWR a little after the 3150 lbs pin wt. (21%). For the SRW LB, (7878 lbs curb wt, GCWR 12300 lbs., payload 4420 lbs.) the calculations exceed payload and GVWR a little after the 3375 lbs. pin wt (22.5%). At 23% of the RV GVWR, the available payload is 30 lbs over wt., as well as the GVW being exceeded. Would I get to that number - I don't know? Then there's the DRW (8396 lbs. curb wt., 14000 GVWR, 5600 lbs. payload) and calculations never exceeded pin wt. Available payload was 850 lbs more at the full 25% GCWR of the 3120.

Our anticipated travel will be short distances as well as cross-country ventures. The TV will mainly be a daily driver when we're on the road, which will be about 6 months out of the year (give or take). Taking all of the above into consideration, it's looking like that the DRW may be the TV that checks all of the boxes, since it will capably handle the max 25% calculation of hitch weight and our anticipated payload with room to spare.

On the flipside, I do have a friend that has a 2018 Ram 3500 SRW-SB and he tows his 16K lb. Vilano (uses a slider hitch) - states there's no problems with his setup. My conversation with him really has me thinking about which way to go. If I did decide to go the route of the SRW LB, my pea-brain tells me the pin weight couldn't exceed 3400 lbs. before exceeding the published specifications (if I bought the Ram 3500 LB).

Decisions, decisions and a big "gut check" before plunking down the buckaroos. If anyone wants to chime in - go for it.
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Old 12-12-2019, 12:54 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by WOXOF View Post
I'm a newbie and have yet to purchase our 5er or truck. We would have made the leap into the RV world years ago, but my work-related position was such that didn't allow me to take a lot of time off. Being fully retired, I've been in the full "due diligence mode" for several months. We don't want to make a misinformed blunder, as this is a huge financial investment/outlay that we'll be making. We've been to 4 RV shows this year, including Hershey in September, as well as going to other shows in past years to keep abreast how the manufacturers were developing their product lines.

We've compared the Grand Design 310GK (35 ft / 15K GVWR) to the Montana 3120 (comparable specifications). I've scoured forums to specifically learn as much as possible about matching the RV to the TV. I've PM'd folks to get their thoughts about their SRW and DRW setups. Their knowledge base has been very enlightening/helpful. I've spent untold hours watching numerous YouTube videos by Big Truck/Big RV and TFL Truck, etc., as well as following some of the full-timer's that document their travel adventures. This group typically have the larger RVs and DRWs. To me, the videos of the test drives don't dig into the numbers very much and are marginally helpful.

I've arrived at the conclusion that my "pucker factor" boils down to the payload capacity of the TV and what will do the job that will keep us safe and be within the legal capacities of both the RV/TV. Having settled on the Montana 3120, I began to research the TV manufacturer's web sites to cull specifications of the SRW SB, LB and DRW's.

I'm agnostic when it comes to the TV and whether it's an SRW or DRW. From what I found the manufacturer's specs are pretty close to each other. I then used a spreadsheet to calculate a number of scenarios. I used the max RV GVWR of 15K lbs as the "worst case," since I don't yet know how much weight I will really be towing in the real world (I can't to to a scale to weigh something I don't own). For the TV payload, I used 600 lbs for passengers and 400 lbs for cargo - total of 1000 lbs. (again, don't know how much will be in the TV). 25% of 15K lbs fully loaded has a hitch weight of 3750 lbs and the low end of 20% is 3000 lbs. I figure that I'd likely fall somewhere in between these numbers.

For the purposes of illustrating what I've learned, using weight specs from the 2019 RAM towing chart (which I realize will need adjustment from the actual TV sticker), the RAM 350 (6.7 HO Diesel/Aisin tranny) SRW SB (7622 lbs curb wt., GVWR 11800 lbs., payload 4180 lbs.) calculations exceed the payload and GVWR a little after the 3150 lbs pin wt. (21%). For the SRW LB, (7878 lbs curb wt, GCWR 12300 lbs., payload 4420 lbs.) the calculations exceed payload and GVWR a little after the 3375 lbs. pin wt (22.5%). At 23% of the RV GVWR, the available payload is 30 lbs over wt., as well as the GVW being exceeded. Would I get to that number - I don't know? Then there's the DRW (8396 lbs. curb wt., 14000 GVWR, 5600 lbs. payload) and calculations never exceeded pin wt. Available payload was 850 lbs more at the full 25% GCWR of the 3120.

Our anticipated travel will be short distances as well as cross-country ventures. The TV will mainly be a daily driver when we're on the road, which will be about 6 months out of the year (give or take). Taking all of the above into consideration, it's looking like that the DRW may be the TV that checks all of the boxes, since it will capably handle the max 25% calculation of hitch weight and our anticipated payload with room to spare.

On the flipside, I do have a friend that has a 2018 Ram 3500 SRW-SB and he tows his 16K lb. Vilano (uses a slider hitch) - states there's no problems with his setup. My conversation with him really has me thinking about which way to go. If I did decide to go the route of the SRW LB, my pea-brain tells me the pin weight couldn't exceed 3400 lbs. before exceeding the published specifications (if I bought the Ram 3500 LB).

Decisions, decisions and a big "gut check" before plunking down the buckaroos. If anyone wants to chime in - go for it.

whew! well how well do you know your friend? Get your camper, load it up, have him take to to the scales. Weigh it then figure out your truck.
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Old 12-12-2019, 02:18 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by WOXOF View Post
...

I've arrived at the conclusion that my "pucker factor" boils down to the payload capacity of the TV and what will do the job that will keep us safe and be within the legal capacities of both the RV/TV. Having settled on the Montana 3120, I began to research the TV manufacturer's web sites to cull specifications of the SRW SB, LB and DRW's.

...

Decisions, decisions and a big "gut check" before plunking down the buckaroos. If anyone wants to chime in - go for it.
This is EXACTLY the reason that I started this thread, to make sense of all of this. I'm in the same camp with you. For me, I don't care if I'm right on the "limit" of the capacities of the TV, but I would like to stay inside of the limits.

It's easy for me to control what I put in the TV vs. RV, since we have a HUGE basement, and all of that weight gets added to the RV, and not the TV. Even better, is that it doesn't add much, if any, to the pin weight, because our basement is all past the rear tires.

As it sits right now, the ONLY thing that I have forward of the axle are the batteries, a mat that weighs 10 lbs, and two bins that weigh 30 pounds together. So, I have very little "added" pin weight, like a genny, multiple batteries, etc.

We never take water with us, we always fill up when we get there, if needed.

At the end of the day, even if I did run into a situation where we were over exceeded the payload of the TV, we're not going to be over by 1000 lbs. So, for us, I don't want the extra baggage of the DRW for that 2% of the time that we're over.

YMMV...
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Old 12-12-2019, 02:33 PM   #48
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Your pin weight will change EVERY time you load up for a trip. I know myself, sometimes I take the genny/coolers full of ice/extra chairs or whatever. Some times I don't.

...
Sure, it's dynamic. For us, it doesn't change that much because we just don't have that many options. Don't have a genny (at least that we take). Don't take coolers, and if we did, they are at the back of the RV. All the chairs that we would ever need are in the RV in the back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beeje View Post
...

Maybe its just you in the truck. Next trip its you, your wife and 3 in the back seat. Some trips may be with full water, some empty. You get the idea.

For this reason everyone should be using the GVWR or the camper to determine what truck has the capacity to do the job.

16,500lbsx20%=3300lbs pin weight
16,500lbsx25%=4125lbs pin weight

...
ALWAYS me and my wife. Sometimes my mom, never more.

I actually KNOW the loaded weight of our RV, and it is 15,000 LOADED. That number is scaled, and actually even a little bit high for variance.

So, 20% = 3000
25% = 3750


Quote:
Originally Posted by beeje View Post
...

The following #s will of coarse very, but just a possible example:

So at 20% of camper GVRW =3300lbs pin+you @175lbs+your wife @150lbs+ 3 in the back seat at @150ea+hithch @200lbs+bed of firewood @500lbs=4775lbs. Clearly above the CCC of any SWR pickup EVER made.

Hell that's within 200lbs of my duallys CCC (just shy of 5000lbs)

Another consideration is your rear tire capacity. They may very well be exceeded before your CCC
Man, I don't know how much firewood you're taking with you, but it's a LOT!!! My RV 15,000 lbs above INCLUDED 3 days worth of firewood in the RV!!

So, this is what I look:

3000 lbs pin (but pin weight needs to be verified)
200 lbs hitch (known)
400 lbs people (slightly high)
275 lbs fuel (slightly high)
------
3875 lbs total with 2 people
4075 lbs total with 3 people

All of the SRW's EXCEPT the Ford 350 are OVER this number, but close, and the Ford is only over by 135 lbs. We only have mom with us about 10% of the time, so I would be comfortable with being over 10% of the time.

I can still load a LOT of stuff in the RV, in the back, and not effect the pin weight all that much...
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Old 12-12-2019, 09:00 PM   #49
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jeffba,
My friend was a co-worker before I retired last December and have known him for at least a decade. He lives in another part of the state and I haven't seen his TV or RV yet. Interestingly, he traded his F450 for a new 2018 Ram 3500 SB (the last one the dealer had and was a sweet deal for him). He does a lot of off-roading on unimproved roads here in Oregon and he told me that the F450 wasn't cutting it in that kind of environment. Knowing his Vilano is pretty heavy, he threw me for a loop when he also told me that he hadn't been to the scales yet. I told him that the numbers I have been running would likely exceed his payload capacity. I'll eventually have another conversation with him to see what he found out.

Regards, Dennis
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Old 12-13-2019, 06:54 PM   #50
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FYI.... Dodge does offer a 3500 crew cab short bed dually diesel truck. They only come in the "MegaCab" version. I actually tried to find one before buying our current truck, but wasn't any within 1100 miles of our home.

Something else to think about is tire/wheel ratings on the tow vehicles. My 2500HD had 20" wheels with a lower weight rating than what the same truck with 18" wheels had. Now with 17" tires on our dually, I have NO concern of tires being overloaded!!

We decided on the '19 Denali, even tho I wanted the new body style and 10 speed tranny, but will wait for a couple of years to make sure they have the design flaws and bugs worked out of them before buying the 10 speed model.
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Old 12-13-2019, 07:12 PM   #51
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I finally got the pin weight on our 5er today. A little less than 20% (19.8%) when fully loaded.

And, I know what the weight is FULLY loaded.

I stay inside ALL of the SRW numbers, except when hauling 3 people in the Ford. Kind of ironic that the biggest truck, with the most powerful engine has the least payload. Go figure.
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Old 12-13-2019, 07:17 PM   #52
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FYI.... Dodge does offer a 3500 crew cab short bed dually diesel truck. They only come in the "MegaCab" version. I actually tried to find one before buying our current truck, but wasn't any within 1100 miles of our home.

...
But, isn't the weekend in that about the same as the long box? It's longer than SRW crew for sure.

At that point, it doesn't help a lot. DW said today that she doesn't want a DRW unless it's 100% a necessity...
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Old 12-14-2019, 07:13 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by CADman_KS View Post
Sure, it's dynamic. For us, it doesn't change that much because we just don't have that many options. Don't have a genny (at least that we take). Don't take coolers, and if we did, they are at the back of the RV. All the chairs that we would ever need are in the RV in the back.



ALWAYS me and my wife. Sometimes my mom, never more.

I actually KNOW the loaded weight of our RV, and it is 15,000 LOADED. That number is scaled, and actually even a little bit high for variance.

So, 20% = 3000
25% = 3750




Man, I don't know how much firewood you're taking with you, but it's a LOT!!! My RV 15,000 lbs above INCLUDED 3 days worth of firewood in the RV!!

So, this is what I look:

3000 lbs pin (but pin weight needs to be verified)
200 lbs hitch (known)
400 lbs people (slightly high)
275 lbs fuel (slightly high)
------
3875 lbs total with 2 people
4075 lbs total with 3 people

All of the SRW's EXCEPT the Ford 350 are OVER this number, but close, and the Ford is only over by 135 lbs. We only have mom with us about 10% of the time, so I would be comfortable with being over 10% of the time.

I can still load a LOT of stuff in the RV, in the back, and not effect the pin weight all that much...
On occasion we take a considerable amount of fire wood with us. Some times enough for a 4-6 hr fire per night for 2 weeks. LOL. Truck always has wood stored it.
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Old 12-14-2019, 08:21 PM   #54
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Yesterday, I pulled the trigger on a new truck. We went with the 2019 F350 4X4 CC, Laramie, 4:10 axle, DRW at $750 over invoice. It's still a chunk of change to outlay, but it's well equipped with the bells and whistles that will make traveling nicer for us.



Any worries I ever had with exceeding payload have now evaporated. Next up is the RV purchase and then we'll start taking some short trips to shake down the rig and get more familiar/comfortable with everything before longer excursions. To me, my choice of TV gives me immediate peace of mind, as well as future flexibility if we ever decide to go larger than the 3120. Doubtful at this point, but who knows ;-)



I'm appreciative of this forum and many postings that have caused a lot of hard / critical thinking on my part, based on other's experiences that's lead me to the "what's best for me" decision. Thanks to everyone!



Dennis
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Old 12-15-2019, 01:25 PM   #55
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Lazydays RV dealerships would not sell you that 5er unless you had a 1 ton SRW as a minimum. Not enough vehicle for the weight. Luckily I had the truck for my 3855BR. Friend of mine went to another dealership who did not care what you have.
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Old 12-15-2019, 02:13 PM   #56
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I purchased the same model 3741fk. After looking around, researching and test driving different models, I ordered the 2020 GMC 2500. I liked the ride much better than the 3500.
It can tow 18k fifth wheel and the 15 view camera system is awesome.
I spent more on the truck than the Montana.
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Old 12-15-2019, 02:17 PM   #57
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I have a SWD 2016 F350, 3.55 dif pulls a 15,000 fifth wheel very well, I’ve pulled it over 30,000 miles, including going to Alaska, going back this summer.
Ford new 2020 has been beefed up to Handel the high HP and Torque numbers, very impressed, would stay with 3:55
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Old 12-15-2019, 02:18 PM   #58
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One thing I don’t like is your payload on a SRW of 3,900 pounds. Driving down the road in real life your payload and pin weight will be equal and I would not bet my family on a maxed out tire.

Also the Ram is good but you have to buy the Aisin shen transmission upgrade. It’s $2.800 but it’s a medium duty truck transmission that will drive a million miles.

Enjoy.
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Old 12-15-2019, 02:27 PM   #59
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Lots of good information here.

16,500 lbs is on the edge for a 3500 SRW.

If you are buying a truck don’t even look at a 2500.

However, you can put a set of 295/70/r18’s and move from 3640 lbs per tire to 4080 lbs per tire. They are about 1 inch taller. With 880 lbs additional weight allowance, you will have plenty of head room if your weights are on the line or just over, in my opinion.

I could not deal on a Ford, I ended up with a Ram 3500 w 3825 payload rating. $6000 less.

Trailer I’m towing is 12800 dry, 14500 lbs actual, GVWR is 16300 lbs. I have a 46 gallon aux diesel tank, encore cover, b&w hitch, w a flex air pin box. HO motor and Aisin. I get 20 mpg average. 11.5 mpg towing. We work hard to not take stuff with us we don’t need.

All newer trucks are very good. My friend tows same trailer w a 2500 Denali . Has no problems. I have the 2018 Ram, w 35,000 miles and 5000 towing. I’m on the original tires and they have been very good. I’m still excited about this truck. It runs great, sounds great and is very comfortable. I keep outfitting it with additional gadgets.

I went nuts looking at this stuff, you will be fine with a SRW, buy her, hook her and go. These new trucks are seriously capable. My Ram say 17,000 lbs max tow, the new ones I think are over 20,000lbs. I thought I’d need airbags, nope! I’m still high on the rear of the truck.

Also the new trucks are much more stable. If the manufacturer says it’s good for 16000 lbs, 20000 lbs or whatever, the truck will tow it safely. 15-20 years ago you couldn’t say that.
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Old 12-15-2019, 03:01 PM   #60
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Have fun buying that truck, whichever one you choose you will like it and be proud of it. I ruled out GM only because I don’t like the interior as well as the other two. That’s just me. I would have really liked having a Ford. I’ve owned 2009 GM 1500, 2007 Suburban 2500, 2005 Chevy Avalanche, 2008Dodge Ram 2500 MegaCab, 2016 Ram 1500 Ecodiesel, 1988 Ford 1500, 1986 Ranger, 1989 Bronco 2, 1990 Chevy Blazer, 1995 Ford Explorer, 1998 Ford Econoline Conversion Van which towed great!, 2018 Ram 3500 CC SB HO. I actually all these vehicles for different reasons, some new some used. Have fun with your purchase!
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