Montana Support S- -Ks

[HamRad]

rickfox,
We do not have the 3400 nor do we tow with a standard Chevy 2500HD. Our 3295 sits relatively level when being pulled with our F450SD PSD. I was worried that since the 450 sits about 4 inches higher than my previous 250 that I might have trouble with rail height. But the mechanic that switched my hitch for me from one truck to the other had it adjusted to ride almost perfectly level. I assume he adjusted both the hitch and the pin box. I still have about 6 and half to 7 inches of rail to coach clearance and as I said the rig rides almost level.

When I changed TV I did not go to Montana for their permission nor their technical advice on how to set up my hitch and pin box. I assumed that responsibility myself.

As I see it the trailer comes from the factory ready to be hitched up and pulled by some sort of TV. After all they tow the things from the factory to the dealer. Our dealer was originally responsible for installing and adjusting everything so we could tow properly and safely.

I guess I am confused as to exactly what your problem is. I think it has something to do with the unit not riding exactly level when hitched to your TV. Is that correct? If so what exactly would you have Montana do to make it "right" for you? There are hundreds of variations of TVs.

Or are you simply upset because you talked to a Montana person that upset you? If this person "smart mouthed" you then, of course, that was not correct. But often these exchanges are in the eye of the beholder. I suspect that if we talked to Craig we'd get a slightly different take on things. I've been there and done that from both sides. I've been done wrong and I've done wrong. We all are only human. So stuff will happen from time to time.

Tow vehicle --- your choice. Hitch selection --- your choice. Bed for pickup ---selection your choice (there are special "RV" type beds). Hopefully your choices will work to pull and stop your rig properly and safely. Although a pin box comes on the Montana I suspect you can change that out too. Apparently that is exactly what you are in the process of doing.



If the current Montana pin box does not have enough adjustment holes in it can you add some? There is no big deal to punching additional adjustment holes if there is sufficient space on the box.

Could your use of the air bags be effecting the nose height?

Besides getting an apology for a real or perceived rude reply to your questions to Montana Customer Service what do you want Montana to do?

It would appear to me that you may be asking for Montana to take some type of action over something which they have no control.

I'm just glad my setup is close enough to work. If this is such a major problem and there are as many folks out there towing with the same rig as yours..... why isn't this a huge issue.

Rick I'm just trying to get a clear understanding of what is going on. It's no fun being as upset as you appear to be. I hope you get a satisfactory resolution to this issue as soon as possible. I am glad to hear you are happy with your Montana trailer.

Good luck,

HamRad

[bobgay]

Rick, before you get a new hitch that will go lower, be real sure you will still have enough clearance between the truck bedrails and the trailer overhang. Our 3400RK rides about 1" high in the front. I have enough adjustment in my hitch to fix that, but I am already as close to the bedrails as I want to go. I'm just going to let it ride 1" high. I remember reading on the Open Roads Forum about people solving the problem by lowering the truck. There are lowering kits available, either OEM or aftermarket. Don't know the cost, but it may be an alternative. Good luck.
Bob

[richfaa]

I am not sure that I completly understand rickfox's problem ..BUT..I would think that ANY RV manufacturer
shouuld be aware of issues that he describes and would have the responsibility of advising the buyer. Yes the buyer is responsible for their choice in product IF he buys it knowing that there is or may be issues like rickfoxes' We are odering a 3400 next month and we want the Mor-Ryde pin box..however I am now in serious conversation with Mor Ryde AND Keystone.asking a simple question.We have the 05, 350 Ford Dually with the 16K draw tite hitch and will hook that up to a 06 Montana 3400RL with a Mor-Ryde Pin box..will the camper ride level or within acceptable tolerances and what are the acceptable tolerances??? Yes or no answer... Rick..would like the number of this Craig fellow.

[rickfox]

Rich and Others,

I agree that we all have to take responsibility for the TV and hitch we have decided to buy, and I agree neither Montana nor any other manufacturer should be held accountable to match up with every configuration that might be out there.

Since I and the dealer belived my configuration was quite common and quite typical, we did not expect to have problems. When there were, I asked Montana about it and complied with their requests to provide a photo and some additional information. I also asked them about the changes in the pin box design that were made for 2006 and commented that the product we received was different than what we thought we were purchasing.

I have not heard a single complaint of a TV being too low. Montana admits there are problems with Dodge models being too high. And now my Chevy 2500HD is too high. Rather than designing and producing trailers that meet some norm, they are delivering trailers that have the pin box set at its highest height setting (leaving no room for compensation), and its still causing problems.

I see a problem here - they don't. They simply, quickly, and in my mind arrogantly decided that it was my problem, not theirs - case closed! It's my opinion they have developed the Terrel Owens mentality.

They are the manufacturer, I'm just the customer. I will compensate for their design by ordering the Glide Ride pin box this week and hope to get it installed in the near future. I believe it will lower the trailer front a small amount. When installed, I will make close measurements, and let all know who are interested at what height above ground the king pin must be for the 2006 3400RL to ride level. I will then purchase a lower profile hitch if required.

Hopefully this situation will then be behind me. I suspect there will be others who will be forced down the same path.

[rickfox]

RamRad

As I'm sure you are aware, Montana has made numerous changes since your 2002 model. Many of these changes have effected the position of the king pin height realative to the axle height. They have made more changes in this area between the 2005 and 2006 models, and I believe have made the problem worse. Of course these are rolling changes so the customer doesn't know what they will get until it arrives. Then the customer has to deal with it!

Montana claims to have an adjustable pin box, but in reality that is not a true statement. The pin box has 2 height adjustments, but all the trailers that I have seen are manufactured with the box set at its maximum height setting. I believe they are doing this because they KNOW the king pin is too low for many applications. Rather than fixing this design flaw and providing for some reasonable adjustment range, they are putting it off on the customer!

I think this is bad business. They should fix it, not make us compensate for it!

[Trailer Trash 2]

Rickfox. this just something I was courious about, if you have the old pin box prior to the Moreride instalation, why cant you take the old one to a certified welder and have it modified for the higth you need.

TT2

[rickfox]

Good Evening All,

Because of city ordinances I am required to park my Montana at a storage facility. While I was over there today, I took a look at how the pin boxes were installed on a number of other 5th wheels. I looked at the following brands:
Challenger by Keystone
Sprinter by Keystone
Cardinal
Sierra
Spinnaker
Carriage
Wildcat

Each of the above trailers had at least 5 adjustment positions for their pin box. None of them were mounted at their highest postion.

The Montana has only 2 adjustment positions, and the pin box comes from the factory at its highest position. If that isn't high enough, according to Montana it's the customer's problem to solve.

I also looked at a Terry. It was built the same as the Montana.

It seems crystal clear to me that other brands have figured out how to do it right - including some from Keystone. Montana and Terry have it wrong!

This is a buyer be aware situation. I am now aware!

[Montana Sky]

I can understand Rick's position in being uphappy with a change to the kingpin that only allows two adjustments. Especially since there was no real notice to any of the dealership about not using extended kingpins on rv's over 34'. I think the problem here is many of us folks have an 05 or older coach and do not understand what the 06 kingpin looks like or how it is put together. I went and backed up under a new 06 coach and with my 100% stock 2500HD and would now have the same problem as Rick. The problem is there is just not enough adjustments to allow for leveling the coach. As far as the transport companies that tow from the factory are concerned, they are not. I have seen TT rv's being towed with with the nose 5" lower than level which puts the tail an additional 5"to 6" in the air. I have seen them tow fifth wheels that sit way high and way low on the nose, do they care? No, their job is to get it to the dealership, they do not care what type of damage or undue stress this puts on the frame, kingpin or any other part of the coach. Next time your driving down the highway take a look at some of these transport rigs and how different rv's ride being towed by them. I am not saying all transport companies are bad, it is just not their personal rv that is being effected.

Rick, keep us updated on how the Glideride hitch works out for you. I truly hope this will solve the problem and can get you onto the happier things of rv ownership.

[Montana_1892]

hi, to the Dodge owners, we have a 05 3500 dually and had our dealer, Dishman Dodge, lower the rear app. one and one-half inches by removing the spacer plates and stacking them on top of the rear leaf spring assemble. This allows use of the original u-bolts and lets you reverse the process if you want. Cost was $100.00 labor ... does not affect steering that i can tell after 8000 miles. We also plan to install 235 x 85R 16 Lts to make up the difference in height to make it level. We had a ('02) 3670RL and the change in dodge spring was enough to make it ride level. Hoping this will help our new 3400RL as we like to stop over for one nite stays and don't like to unhook- rehook just to get level.

[rames14]

It was interesting to read through the posts. One comment, Rickfox. This is not a Keystone/Montana run website. Unless there is profanity or other issues, you won't find anyone "censoring" your comments. I know from personal experience how a comment can set me off, so I sympathize with you on the dealings with customer service. If this is the only contact you have had with the people at Montana, you have a single sample to go by. I agree with others that you shoulld go ahead and try to contact the supervisor at Montana. We have gotten to talk to their management and service personnel at the Montana rallys and have found them to be great. Even if it turns out that you can't get a Montana resolution, Ihope you get an apology. Best of luck pursuing some of the suggestions. I personally am leaning toward going back to your dealer. As even you mentioned - there are lots of us out there with these combinations and most of us haven't had a problem. I am running a 2500 HD 4x4 with the 3400. Another suggestion would be to contact Lippert. They deliver the frame with the pinbox installed when it arrives at Keystone. I'm surprised that MIMF hasn't chimed in here. You may want to PM him. He works for Lippert. Best of luck.

[sreigle]

I saw something about the Montana being discussed being 2 1/2 inches nose high. Is that right? I don't know how that was measured so perhaps I'm misinterpreting it. However, I don't see 2 1/2 inches being a big deal. Ours rides slightly nose high (see picture below) but I'm not sure exactly how much. It's been sitting back there for a lot of miles and it's not been a problem. I don't do anything about it on ours simply because with 3300 lbs pinweight I don't want the additional pinweight that would result from lowering the nose. It rides great back there so, in my case it aint broke and aint getting fixed.

I would think if it's only 2 1/2 inches nose high and you have adequate bed rail clearance I guess I wouldn't consider it a problem. There is no standard saying a certain amount of bedrail clearance is required but from all I've read it sounds like 5 1/2 to 6 inches is considered by many to be the minimum. We had a setup with 5 1/2 inches clearance one time and I was not comfortable with that so had the axles flipped (an old Wilderness fiver). Our current setup has 8 to 8 1/2 inches clearance at the lowest point.

Just my opinion, for what little that might be worth.

[bobgay]

Steve, the tech at our dealer measured the distance from the ground to the horizontal trim running down the side of the lower panel of the unit, comparing measurements from the front and back. I confirmed his measurement myself by pulling the trailer up on 1" wooden blocks and then using a carpenter's level on the floor of the coach.
My concern about having the nose too high was the extra weight and stress on the rear tires, wheels, axles, etc. I don't know how far out of level you have to be to cause a problem, but I concluded that in my case 1" was ok.

[rickfox]

Good Afternoon All,

I have received quite a few ideas on how I can modify my brand new Montana and/or my TV so that I can get the trailer to ride level

1) Buy a new lower profile hitch - $500 - Montana CS suggestion
2) Buy another TV - stupid - another Montana suggestion
3) Buy/install Mor/ryde suspension - very expensive, thus stupid - Montana suggestion
4) Lower TV suspension - fairly expensive, safety?
5) Raise suspension on trailer - sounds expensive
5) Larger trailer tires - expensive - Montana suggestion
6) Smaller tires on TV - fairly expensive, safety?
7) Drill more holes, remount pin box - warranty and liability issues, safety?
8) Weld on new pin box - warranty and liability issues, safety?
9) Forget it, don't worry about it - potentially unsafe

How come nobody suggested that I simply "adjust" the position of the pin box to a more suitable position??

That's the way I did it on my last 2 5th wheels! That's what the dealer originally suggested! That's the way I would do it if I purchased a Carriage, or a Cardinal, or a Challenger or a number of other name brand trailers!

Oh, I know why! Its because the Montana design DOES NOT HAVE any adjustment to raise the pin box higher! If it isn't high enough, too bad - you've been had! Either forget about it or pick from options 1) thru 8) above!

I wonder if I'm the only one who thinks the Montana design is flawed (I really want to say s - - ks). I was not aware there was no additional pin box height adjustment on the Montana as there is on many other brands. I was not told there might be a problem because of this, and I don't think that Montana should lay their deficient design off on the unsuspecting public as a buyer's problem to solve!

I for one, bought the trailer to have fun in, not spending time deciding how best to compensate for their design flaw, while at the same time not void any frame warranties, incur additional accident liabilites should I make modifications, while maintaining an acceptable level of safety for me and my family.

One poster asked what I would have Montana to do. I would like for them to admit the problem is theirs - not mine - and agree to pay for a reasonable corrective action to solve the problem. Oh, and how about making a design change here so others won't have to continue to deal with the situation.

[ols1932]

Rickfox:
What kind of dealer do you have? My dealer (Ketelsen RV in Hiawatha, IA) would never let me leave their lot with something wrong like you describe. Gary Ketelsen, Owner, makes sure that everything, absolutely everything is correct. Additionally, Keystone has bent over backwards for us and our rig even after it was four years out of warranty. I have to sympathize with you and the problems you are having. Have you tried talking to MIMF? He works for Lippert and also is a member of this forum.

[HomeOnTheRoad]

Why do you think #9 is potentially unsafe? 2 and a half inches is not unsafe that I can see. You are not putting that much more weight on the trailer axles. Why do you think it is unsafe? There are many fifthwheels on the highway that high and higher. Question. Extended pinbox has several adjustment holes. Yours sounds like it is a standard pinbox not extended. Do other brands have more adjustments in the standard pinbox? I don't think so but I do not know for sure. On extended it is the extended part that has the adjustments not the regular part.

[fulltimedreamer]

Rick,

After reading this thread and the other threads you have on this issue, I think perhaps there may be a 10th option to consider. I noted that you have airbags on your truck that are raising the rearend by 3 inches. Would it be unreasonable to let some air out of the airbags to lower the back of the truck by 1 to 1.5 inches. It doesn't seem to me that this would change the handling of the truck and your Monty would then be riding level or with a Mor/Ryde Pin Box maybe a tad high.

Also, over the years I have observed many tow behinds and 5th wheels that are towed either too high or too low. I don't have a fifth wheel but have adjusted my hitch on the travel trailer so that it is more or less level. It may be an inch or so high in the front but I think this is within a reasonble limit. It is my opinion that it would have to be several inches high or low to cause any substantial difference in the axel loads. Adding or removing water from my fresh water tank would make a bigger difference in loads on the axels.

To get peace of mind I would talk with the folks at Lippert to see if there is any reason for concern. Also, try going up the foodchain at Keystone if you were not treated properly by the folks you talked with. I would avoid any conversation that includes the words "your service s--ks." Reasonable people can usually resolve their issues with reasonable negotiation. Hope you can get this resolved soon, so you can truly enjoy your Montana.

[Parrothead]

Great post, Lamar.
Happy trails........................

[OntMont]

quote:Originally posted by fulltimedreamer

Rick,

I noted that you have airbags on your truck that are raising the rearend by 3 inches.
To get peace of mind I would talk with the folks at Lippert to see if there is any reason for concern.

I have read this thread, but I missed the point Fulltimedreamer makes, if you are indeed raising the rear with airbags, that would explain a lot of things. The 3400 has a pretty low pin weight, do you really need any air bags? My memory of when I did use airbags is that they are intended to maintain a normal level of the truck, not raise it. Maybe I missed something along the way, but I would certainly reconsider the use of air bags if that is what is causing the problem.

I was also surprised to hear that there is no pin box adjustment on the 06 Montana's, because every other Montana I have seen does have adjustment. (although I've never needed to use it). It might be worth a call to Lippert customer service to see what their take is on this situation. Lippert have excellent customer service, and may have ideas beyond anything suggested here.

Good luck, and I really hope you get a satisfactory resolution. As you can tell, your situation appears to be a "first" for this forum, and has generated some interesting posts.

[richfaa]

Since I do not yet tow a fifth wheel I can not comment on the effects of the camper riding 1 or 2 inches high at the front. I am not a engineer but it would seem that the shift in weight, if the camper is properly loaded, would not be significant enough to adversly effect the tow profile of the entire unit. My Experience has been in TT's and we were VERY picky on proper distibution of weight.After working all the adjustments we were still a little high or a little low in the front so we used our airbags to adjust for a level ride. We now have a 05 F-350 Ford that we will use to tow a 06 3400 and we never considered air bags and Ricks problem is with a 3/4 ton Chevy ( and I don't think he should have that problem) but if he has airbags could he not compensate by reducing the air in the bags..unless they are also as low as safety permits. Would that effect safety???

[dsprik]

My wife and I passed a 3/4 pickup pulling a ~ 34' TT yesterday afternoon on I-75 by Grayling, MI. I have NEVER seen an unbalanced weight distribution like that EVER (I'm 53 and I have a lot of road miles under my belt - oilfield engineer running 100,000 miles per year). Wish I had taken a pic of that. I don't know how you could ever get a trailer THAT front end loaded. It's almost like he was in a contest to see who could get the most tongue weight in a TT. You guys would have been AMAZED. He was squated all the way down on the rear axles - could not have had any weight on the steering axle. I don't know how he was steering. That was just stupidity. He was doing around 65 mph. I cautiously went around, then got away as fast as possible.

Not only that, but it wasn't like this guy was just trying to creep down the road a mile or two with this dangerous situation - he was on I-75, on some long distance haul! Won't the highway partol (maybe motor carrier cops) pull someone over like that? If I was a cop, I'd pull him over and make him massively redistribute the weight before he pulled it another inch. (Fines in order here?)

Rick, if you would have seen this, it would have made you feel a little better (maybe) about your off level situation. I thought of you when I saw it.

Rich and I are buying 2006 3400RLs and this pin adjustment is something that I am sure we are going to scrutinize very closely and grill salemen about. MIMF, where are you? Sure would like your professional opinion on this.