Freezing LP Tanks

[CamillaMichael]

Was just reading some responses on another topic (on-board generator) and I began thinking about a couple of times our lp tanks seemed to freeze up. Does anyone happen to know if using those "blankets" designed for hotwater heaters would provide any relief/protection for lp tanks when operating in cold weather??

[Ozz]

The freezing point of propane is -187ºC. so it won't freeze up in the tank, Propane still can vaporize down to -44 F
With out 2-stage reducing valves, it lessens the pressure drop. I don't like the idea of using ANYTHING electric or any type of heat pon a Propane tank, some do, but not me..no sir...

Now, you can get contanamited Propane from suppliers with moisture in it, but that would be very rare..

It happens when there is a big draw on the tanks, less with the 2-stage regulators, like I stated abobe.
Info from the Internet:
Q. Why does a propane tank freeze up or sweat?
A. When the vapor in a tank/cylinder is being drawn down quickly, it lowers the pressure in the tank. The liquid reacts to the low pressure by boiling and creating a -44 degrees below zero temperature inside the tank, freezing the outside moisture on the tank. By turning the gas off and eliminating the draw on the tank, the pressure will recover.

[kab449]

I wouldn't use anything not specifically designed for propane tanks. The ones that are cost a lot but work well. Here's a link to one:
http://www.bayteccontainers.com/powe...er-warmer.html

[CamillaMichael]

quote:Originally posted by Ozz

The freezing point of propane is -187ºC. so it won't freeze up in the tank, Propane still can vaporize down to -44 F
With out 2-stage reducing valves, it lessens the pressure drop. I don't like the idea of using ANYTHING electric or any type of heat pon a Propane tank, some do, but not me..no sir...

Now, you can get contanamited Propane from suppliers with moisture in it, but that would be very rare..

It happens when there is a big draw on the tanks, less with the 2-stage regulators, like I stated abobe.
Info from the Internet:
Q. Why does a propane tank freeze up or sweat?
A. When the vapor in a tank/cylinder is being drawn down quickly, it lowers the pressure in the tank. The liquid reacts to the low pressure by boiling and creating a -44 degrees below zero temperature inside the tank, freezing the outside moisture on the tank. By turning the gas off and eliminating the draw on the tank, the pressure will recover.

Ozz, I was not thinking of an electric blanket...just one of those things that look like a space blanket with an insulation lining???

[CamillaMichael]

quote:Originally posted by kab449

I wouldn't use anything not specifically designed for propane tanks. The ones that are cost a lot but work well. Here's a link to one:
http://www.bayteccontainers.com/powe...er-warmer.html

Now that has got to be one of the most expensive blankets I have ever seen!

[Ozz]

I would NOT use anything like that, but that is just me.
If this happens, just switch from one tank to another, by the time the first tank freezes, switch to the other.
But just because it frosts, doesn't mean it will stop flowing. If you don't get enough pressure to feed the generator, then switch tanks for a while.
(This just shows what an energy hog the generator is..)

[1retired06]

Wintered in Colorado Springs one year, and never had an issue with the propane tanks

[CamillaMichael]

quote:Originally posted by Ozz

I would NOT use anything like that, but that is just me.
If this happens, just switch from one tank to another, by the time the first tank freezes, switch to the other.
But just because it frosts, doesn't mean it will stop flowing. If you don't get enough pressure to feed the generator, then switch tanks for a while.
(This just shows what an energy hog the generator is..)

The challenge of switching back and forth from tank to tank is remembering where you are at in terms of how full the tank is...nothing like running out of lp gas in the middle of the night when it's freezing outside!!!

[Mrs. CountryGuy]

I know I have not had enough coffee, but, are we talking propane for furnaces OR propane for generators??

I thought OEM and Ozz were talking about the propane for generators.

We have been in some pretty cold stuff and the propane for the house/Tana, with NO generator has never stopped flowing unless we, were, duhhh, outta propane.

So, for the ole coffee starved brain, I need to keep propane for generators and propane for the house/Tana in two different compartments of that ole coffee starved brain.

Oh, just send HUGE pots of coffee - -

[DQDick]

I'm also puzzled about the problem. We don't have a propane generator, but have never had problems with propane not being available to the furnace down to below zero. Now days we stay where it's above freezing most of the time, but that wasn't always the case.

[Ozz]

Dick, the Gen's use a bunch of Propane fast. Our furnaces do not use that much, the faster it is removed from the tank, the more pronounced the sub-cooling is, and the more external frost. There is a 'Sweet-spot' on the Propane tanks, when it gets to a certain level of Propane under hard use, the more frost. You could use Propane for refrigeration if it wasn't so dangerous; flammable..

[Trailer Trash 2]

I agree with Ozz on lots of fuel use.
I had a valve replaced on my M Home years ago, and the tank was full. the man at the propane plant disconected the output line and opened the valve full blast, venting it out a tube above the roof line , which is a no no now. the propane froze, he removed the valve and put on a new one. I lost about a third of a tank of propane, but a large flow will cause the stuff to freeze as Ozz stated. I guess that is a disadvantage of using propane rapidly.

[jwedell]

In the past i've used WARM water to heat up the tank in an emergency.

[Ozz]

When I recharge a refrigeration system, or a Air Conditioning system, I have to use liquid, (turn the tank upside-down) because if I use vapor, the tank cools so much the pressure drops, an it won't transfer. We have an orface for the gages that reduces the flow, so the refrigerant won't come out as liquid and damage the compressor.
Or, if you are careful an know what you are doing, you just modulate the valve on the gages.
I have started out with a bucket of hot water for the tank.
In summer when the tanks sit out in the hot Sun, it is no problem.
With the new blend 410-A refrigerant, you have to use liquid-charge method, because it is a blend and gas charging won't get the proper blend in.
Just noting the similarity between Propane usage and refrigerant.
And..trying to bore you for that Saturday afternoon nap...

[jwedell]

Same here Ozz. Some of the systems took 150 lbs of R22. If you charged it with vapor you'd never get done. I believe on the newer hermetic compressors the suction side first cools the motor windings so the problem of slugging is reduced.

[kab449]

I take care of 20 heat pumps in my apartments and now that it's cold I have to open the low side valve a little, close it, repeat many times until I get enough in to restore the system to proper running pressure. Sometimes a half hour. In the summer you can just open it with no problems. I believe it's called the heat of vaporization. How much heat is absorbed from the surroundings to change the material from liquid to vapor. If there is not enough of heat in the air surrounding the cylinders you will not get enough of vapor to satisfy the demand.
Enough now I'm going to a Christmas Party.

[Ozz]

Keith, there is something wrong with the system, probably installed and set-up improperly.
You shouldn't have to do anything to them. There are a few million units out there that make it through the winter without service.

[kab449]

Ozz
On two of them so far I have had to put new indoor coils (evaporator) with less than 3 years of service. They are Rheem air handlers and the soldier job at the ends where the U tubes are is failing. They cover them under warranty for 10 years but parts only. RV'S aren't the only things that have poor quality control. Sometimes they take 6 months to leak down to where the indoor diffuser air temp isn't high enough to satisfy the thermostat and they run and never shut off. I shoot them up until the leak becomes fast enough to easily detect so I don't have any warranty questions.
No more Rheem for me!
What do you use that gives you the best service?

[Ozz]

For a long time Lennox had bad quality control on the coins, I have changed out hundreds of Lennox coils. Carrier has a good record, also Heil, but many others are fine, sometimes a factory run is just defective from any of them.

[CORattler]

I Agee! NO ignition sources near the LP tanks!!
Thanks Ozz for the "rest of the story"

quote:Originally posted by Ozz

The freezing point of propane is -187ºC. so it won't freeze up in the tank, Propane still can vaporize down to -44 F
With out 2-stage reducing valves, it lessens the pressure drop. I don't like the idea of using ANYTHING electric or any type of heat pon a Propane tank, some do, but not me..no sir...

Now, you can get contanamited Propane from suppliers with moisture in it, but that would be very rare..

It happens when there is a big draw on the tanks, less with the 2-stage regulators, like I stated abobe.
Info from the Internet:
Q. Why does a propane tank freeze up or sweat?
A. When the vapor in a tank/cylinder is being drawn down quickly, it lowers the pressure in the tank. The liquid reacts to the low pressure by boiling and creating a -44 degrees below zero temperature inside the tank, freezing the outside moisture on the tank. By turning the gas off and eliminating the draw on the tank, the pressure will recover.