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06-11-2013, 08:01 AM
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#1
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Established Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Castro Valley
Posts: 12
M.O.C. #13482
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No Safety Chains?
Sorry if this is a real stupid question, but....
DW and I have noted that there are no safety chains associated with 5 wheel trailers. Having towed before I know you can get a ticket for not having safety chains on a conventional trailer - so why not on a fifth wheel.
I was also asked why a breakaway? With those front landing its going to come to halt pretty fast anyway...?
Jerald
Montanan Wannabe
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06-11-2013, 08:15 AM
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#2
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Montana Master
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Tampa
Posts: 532
M.O.C. #10378
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Chains would be the size anchor chain used on the Queen Mary. I was never convinced safety chains on a regular travel trailer would do much good either. I think the front landing gear would sheer off quickly at 65mph on a breakaway.
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06-11-2013, 09:39 AM
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#3
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Montana Master
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Haysville
Posts: 4,261
M.O.C. #3085
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Good question, but I have no defining answer. I figure if a semi doesn't need safety chains due to the design of the hitch ... neither does my fiver. Here's an exerpt from the California Department of Motor Vehicles website.
Safety chains are required for travel trailers. Safety chains are not required for fifth-wheel trailers. The purpose of safety chains is to prevent the trailer from separating from the tow vehicle in event of a hitch failure, such as a hitch ball that has loosened. The chains should be crossed in an "X" fashion below the ball mount, with enough slack to allow unrestricted turning, but not enough to allow the coupler to hit the ground.
Breakaway switches are also required for any trailer having a gross weight of 1500 pounds or more and manufactured after December 31, 1955. They are designed to activate trailer brakes if the tow vehicle becomes separated from the trailer. One end of the breakaway switch is attached to an electrical switch on the trailer frame and the other end is looped around a stationary hitch component on the tow vehicle. If the two vehicles become separated, the cable pulls a pin inside the breakaway switch and applies full power from the trailer battery to the trailer brakes.
Even though hitch component failure is rare, the breakaway switch and the safety chains must be in good working order.
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06-11-2013, 09:45 AM
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#4
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Montana Master
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Murrieta
Posts: 5,816
M.O.C. #9257
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Here's my thoughts...
A fifth wheel uses a breakaway to stop the trailer in the event of a separation and since there is a considerable amount of a fifth wheel over the vehicle they want the trailer to help with stopping if separation occurs.
A travel trailer is far back of the tow vehicle and no part over the tow vehicle and no auto brake, so if separation occurs the chains are supposed to control some of the direction of a trailer that has separated. Since there is NO break away the drag should stop everything while keeping it somewhat connected to the tow vehicle and not a rampant going any direction trailer missle.
An additional safeguard for fiver separation is a bed saver and the drawback to this is that if a fiver separates it lands in this device to keep it hooked up, but the driver has to realize this has happened in order to stop the whole thing since the breakaway has probably NOT engaged. However, the advantage to this device is that is supposed to minimize damage and keep the TV and RV together in near the same position. Using safety chains with fifth wheels besides having to be much larger might cause more damage or control problems beyond dropping into the truck bed and the breakaway will probably not engage to help with the stopping.
Keep in mind that most fivers weigh far more than similar sized bumper tows so the tow equipment is different. Have you noticed the size and weight of the bumper tow equipment versus fifth wheel tow equipment. Fivers tend to deal with larger and heavier stresses because of the characteristics.
Fortunately, trailer separation is very rare and most stories I heard were owner caused (forgot to do something correctly). But I hope I never have it myself or see it on someone else.
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06-11-2013, 10:17 AM
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#5
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Montana Master
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Haysville
Posts: 4,261
M.O.C. #3085
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Art ... TTs have breakaway switches as do fivers ... unless I read your reply wrong.
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06-11-2013, 10:31 AM
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#6
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Chilliwack
Posts: 1,520
M.O.C. #12935
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Interesting questions jrpend: I also have no explanation as to why our RV - 5th wheels are not required to have safety chains. My daughters 16,000 lb horse trailer with front living quarters and goose neck hitch is equipped with safety chains. It also has a breakaway no different than our 5th wheels. I do not recall seeing a horse trailer without safety chains.
Perhaps the reasoning is due to the difference in the hitch styles. Also the additional braking provided by the breakaway would likely stop the unit quicker than without it.
Quote:
quote:
Art-n-marge wrote:
Since there is NO break away the drag should stop everything while keeping it somewhat connected to the tow vehicle and not a rampant going any direction trailer missle.
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Actually every trailer that is equipped with brakes is supposed to have a breakaway, and every one in recent years that I have owned has had a breakaway, no different than the 5th wheel.
I don't think the bed saver was ever intended to handle a separation at highway speeds, it is only there for those who might drive away with the landing gear still up.
Lets just hope there will never be a need for either safety features for any of us.
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06-11-2013, 11:43 AM
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#7
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Halifax
Posts: 335
M.O.C. #9963
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The reason the safety chains on a trailer are to be crossed and not too loose but not restrictive of a turn is that in the event of a break away then the crossed chains will catch the tounge and keep the trailer from catapaulting. the trailer will sway a lot and you brake slowly. If and when the brakes on the trailer get activated by the break away switch it sure helps. It becomes the tail wagging the dog. Been there.
Joe
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06-11-2013, 01:42 PM
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#8
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Montana Master
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Murrieta
Posts: 5,816
M.O.C. #9257
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OOps, yes, dieselguy, the larger heavier TTs do have breakaway trailer brakes so they do help with the braking. Some lighter weight TTs do not have a breakaway depending on their weight. Thanks for correcting this. In my days of towing professionally, I was surprised how may bumper tows only had electrical brake support and no breakaway support but these were more on the lighter side.
BTW - there are no stupid questions. Getting answers to making us all smarter at towing is NOT stupid at all.
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06-11-2013, 02:15 PM
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#9
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Lykens
Posts: 545
M.O.C. #11842
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The question begs to be asked: where would one secure safety chains on a fifth wheel without them becoming entangled in the hitch through 180 degrees of rotation?
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06-11-2013, 02:53 PM
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#10
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Site Team
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Wilsey
Posts: 18,799
M.O.C. #11455
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If you have ever triggered you break away switch when moving at decent speed you will attest that it stops very quickly pulling the truck back with it. You know how I know.
__________________
Dick, Joyce, Diego, Picatso and Gustav
2017 3720 RL, and 2013 HC 343RL
Pullrite Hitch, IS, Disk Brakes, 3rd AC, Winegard Traveler, Bathroom door mod, Dometic 320, couch for desk swap, replaced chairs, sun screens, added awnings, etc.
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06-11-2013, 03:30 PM
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#11
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Bella Vista
Posts: 472
M.O.C. #12223
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Just guessing, but if there was a breakaway and the chains would not be long enough to activate the emergency trailer brake, the driver might instinctively hit the brakes. Since the truck would stop quicker than the trailer, the fiver might just blow through the back truck window?
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06-11-2013, 04:03 PM
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#12
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Chilliwack
Posts: 1,520
M.O.C. #12935
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Having seen how safety chains are attached on the horse trailers I do not think it would be all that difficult to have them on our 5th wheelers in spite of the different hitch. Would it provide more safety is the real question IMHO.
Flymutt: One would hope that if there was a breakaway and the chains were not long to activate the emergency breakaway, they would also not be long enough for the trailer plug to have been pulled out either, in which case braking the TV would also activate the RV brakes. All speculation but interesting ideas nonetheless.
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06-12-2013, 02:02 AM
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#13
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Montana Master
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Englewood
Posts: 3,095
M.O.C. #164
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Just stop and think about what would happen if the fiver came off the hitch at 65 MPH and was still connected to TV with safety Chains you would be totally out of control Just picture that in your mind their is your answer!
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06-12-2013, 02:57 AM
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#14
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: McKinney
Posts: 7,167
M.O.C. #6433
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I believe any hitch with a ball mount (including gooseneck hitches) are required to have safety chains. Don't know the reasoning other than guessing the possibility of a ball hitch coming loose while towing is significantly greater than a 5th wheel hitch.
__________________
Bill & Patricia
Riley, our Golden
2007 3075RL (recently sold, currently without)
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06-12-2013, 04:17 AM
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#15
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Montana Master
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Lake Gaston
Posts: 8,773
M.O.C. #12156
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My guess: Big difference between those locking jaws on a fifth wheel hitch. Significant pin weigh on top of those jaws make it unlikely that anything would bounce out.. Most folks clip their ball hitches closed, and not much of a latch over the ball, makes it much easier for a bounce to cause the trailer/boat to come off the ball, and chains X crossed are supposedly there to catch.
__________________
Mike and Lorraine
2002 3655 FL, 2005 3650RK
2010 3665RE, 2015 3910FB
F350 crew cab dually 6.7
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06-12-2013, 06:55 AM
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#16
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Montana Master
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Frostproof, FL USA
Posts: 2,362
M.O.C. #13272
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In my much younger days logged over 100,000 miles with a military tractor/trailer. Old equipment and bad roads. Never knew of a 5th wheel seperation, even in rollovers. I now use two different pull behind construction trailers that require two different size balls. I consider myself to be very safe but this summer I for got to switch the ball (from smaller to bigger) when hooking up to the larger trailer. Good thing I remembered it before I got out of the yard because it would have come off! Point is, I know once my 5er is locked in it will never come off, but mistakes and equipment failure will allow pull behind trailers to disengage. They need safety chains. JMHO
__________________
Previous: 2008 Montana 3400RL & 2014 3725RL
Current: Full Time 2022 SOB TT Toy Hauler
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06-12-2013, 07:27 AM
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#17
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Montana Master
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Murrieta
Posts: 5,816
M.O.C. #9257
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Another thing to think about regarding fifth wheels might be a stronger connection than a ball. The fifth wheel pin looks like it is a larger diameter where the jaws clamp around it, than the diameter right below the ball itself on a bumper tow even if the ball is 2 5/8" (even smaller for a 2" or 1 7/8" but the trailers are much lighter, too). The shank part of either is smaller diameter on the bumper tow. When you think about it, these are the places that are holding and pulling the trailer onto its hitch mounting and this has to be some pretty strong metal not to break from the stresses of whatever is being pulled.
I think the smaller shank diameter is another reason why bumper tows need to be lighter weight than fivers. Then converting a fiver pin to a gooseneck and the smaller shank is introduced once again and you can really get to thinking. Fortunately, I have never heard of a trailer failure because of a shank breaking so that diameter of metal is pretty strong. Most failures occur from operator error not engaging something correctly or possibly from some moving part of engaging failing.
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06-12-2013, 03:56 PM
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#18
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Baton Rouge
Posts: 431
M.O.C. #11342
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I did some internet research on this a while back. From the best i could determine, the locking collar-to-king-pin connection is considered secure enough not to require safety devices. Ball mounts, whether on the bumper or in the truck bed require safety chains.
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06-12-2013, 10:31 PM
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#19
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Montana Master
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Okeechobee
Posts: 2,150
M.O.C. #11206
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by nosticks
I think the front landing gear would sheer off quickly at 65mph on a breakaway.
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Hi
My landing gear fell down on the road at 60 MPH on the first long trip we made. From the TV I could only hear the noise there wasn’t any drag or swaying I could feel.
I am now on my 3 rd set of landing gear. The next one that fails I will pull both and install a quality hydraulic system.
Phil P
__________________
2009 Montana 3665RE
2009 Duramax 3500 DRW quad cab
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06-13-2013, 02:42 AM
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#20
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Montana Master
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Lake Gaston
Posts: 8,773
M.O.C. #12156
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Phil P
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by nosticks
I think the front landing gear would sheer off quickly at 65mph on a breakaway.
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Hi
My landing gear fell down on the road at 60 MPH on the first long trip we made. From the TV I could only hear the noise there wasn’t any drag or swaying I could feel.
I am now on my 3 rd set of landing gear. The next one that fails I will pull both and install a quality hydraulic system.
Phil P
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Never heard of that happening before. Assume a snap pin vibrated loose?
__________________
Mike and Lorraine
2002 3655 FL, 2005 3650RK
2010 3665RE, 2015 3910FB
F350 crew cab dually 6.7
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