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07-18-2012, 04:36 AM
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#121
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Montana Master
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Belvidere
Posts: 1,834
M.O.C. #185
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If you don't like the furniture - leave it off the order and buy residential what you like. Problem solved!
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07-18-2012, 06:16 AM
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#122
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
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We did consider that Steve but when we saw the cloth funiture at the Rally web thought that was good enough. The OEM cloth stuff in our 06 3400 was still good after 6 years of hard use.
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07-18-2012, 07:12 AM
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#123
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Montana Master
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Belvidere
Posts: 1,834
M.O.C. #185
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Rich....understand your point. My comment was for others that may not know you could order w/o furniture.
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07-18-2012, 09:53 AM
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#124
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
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Ok...the cabinet doors that open up and there is nothing to hold them open,Installed struts on them today. Two on the long door over the Micro wave on the 3402 and one each on the smaller doors over the computer desk. Cost to me via Camping world $18.00..I wonder what those would have cost Keystone by the truck load or how deep that would have cut into their profit margin??? On this the TOP OF THE LINE, BEST YOU CAN BUY, MONTANA PRODUCT.....
Yes you can order without furniture
On the 06 3400 we did not order the mattress, end table, coffee table and one recliner. On the 13 we did not order the end table /coffee table. Our intent was to replace the OEM stuff in the 06 3400 when it wore out but it never did...
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07-18-2012, 02:56 PM
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#125
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Down the Road
Posts: 5,627
M.O.C. #889
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Steves ~ I also understood your point. However, I was also told by the RSM that ordering a Big Sky without furniture was not an option. I refuse to pay for something of poor quality that had no use to me, especially when not getting credited back the cost of the deleted items.
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07-26-2012, 02:46 PM
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#126
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
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Update. The list of small, silly, stupid workmanship issues continues. The latest is the satellite inputs do not work.We can go direct to the sat receiver and all is good. I have a thread down the forum that is helping us with that.Today Helen noted that the sliding closet door nearest the bedroom was not connected at the bottom. There is a U shaped plastic slider down there that the door slides in. Our skilled craftsman did not have the time to screw it in the wall...Helen did.Why do we mention these silly, small issues.....Because this is the TOP OF THE LINE, BEST YOU CAN BUY,MONTANA PRODUCT and we expect it to be.. Again not a slam on Montana..Don't think another brand would be any better.....But....I got a montana.It is the best and that is what I want.
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07-27-2012, 04:52 AM
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#127
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Montana Master
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 908
M.O.C. #7915
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What are the "skilled craftsmen" getting paid...minimum wage? $10/hour? $12/hour? Keystone, and you, are getting what they are paying for. To get a really "skilled craftsman" will require higher pay and a higher costing end product..which they are unwilling to do.
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07-27-2012, 06:35 AM
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#128
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Farmington
Posts: 283
M.O.C. #11619
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Hooker
What are the "skilled craftsmen" getting paid...minimum wage? $10/hour? $12/hour? Keystone, and you, are getting what they are paying for. To get a really "skilled craftsman" will require higher pay and a higher costing end product..which they are unwilling to do.
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Why? How much skill does it really require to assemble these things? I have no special training and I have had to fix many things that were put together with NO love. This is a motivational issue. Keystone needs to fix that. The product is good.
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by richfaa
There is a U shaped plastic slider down there that the door slides in. Our skilled craftsman did not have the time to screw it in the wall...Helen did
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07-27-2012, 07:16 AM
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#129
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
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keystone marketing is...."Skilled craftsmen " that's what I am told..that's what I expect. We hold them to their marketing. We all should do that.
So here I go outside to tear the paneling off in the storage compartment so I can see what is going on behind the convenience center. We have little confidence that all is as it should be back there. That should not be...
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07-27-2012, 02:38 PM
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#130
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Victor
Posts: 940
M.O.C. #1709
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Rich and anyone else that has bought a newer unit, check your leather headboard. Just rub over it as if you were cleaning it. You should or may feel some staples almost coming thru. We found ours that way and Keystone is sending a new one thru the dealer. It's like they either went to thinner plywood or longer staples. Just check it out.
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07-28-2012, 04:02 AM
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#131
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Farmington
Posts: 283
M.O.C. #11619
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I found many like that sticking out of the carpet on the floor between the bed and shower. OUCH!
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07-28-2012, 04:13 AM
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#132
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by jsmitfl
Rich and anyone else that has bought a newer unit, check your leather headboard. Just rub over it as if you were cleaning it. You should or may feel some staples almost coming thru. We found ours that way and Keystone is sending a new one thru the dealer. It's like they either went to thinner plywood or longer staples. Just check it out.
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Just checked..We do not have that problem in fact the headboard is well padded.
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07-28-2012, 04:32 AM
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#133
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
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we have never seen the Montana assembly line while in operation as we always tour the plant on Sat at the fall rally. We have seen other Keystone plants as well as SOB plants while in operation. As I have said many times before if one toured a plant while it was operational one would probably not buy a RV.
These skilled craftsmen just do not seem to have the time to do a quality job.IMO in is not their fault. I once asked a tour person(manufacturer unnamed) how the crew at a particular assembly station knew if all their assigned tasks had been accomplished properly before moving to the next station. He looked at me like I had three heads.His answer finally was...well they know what they are doing...Great quality control.
We at the rally tours have all seen the "quality check stations" at the end of the line, all those red tape markers indicating a defect. We know they check inside as we have seen the red tape markers inside....Now I ask you..how could someone not notice that half of the nail holes and staple holes were filled with a different color filler than the other half. It hit you in the face when you stepped in the camper. How could one not notice that the pantry door (W/D) door would not close???Did they open the door to see if all was OK inside..Did they close the door??? How could they not notice that the awning had a huge scrape mark on it....Stupid, little defects.That just ruin your day.
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07-28-2012, 02:36 PM
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#134
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Down the Road
Posts: 5,627
M.O.C. #889
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Rich ~ I ordered dual pane windows on mine and being they are all frame-less, one would think it would not be hard to realize you are installing a single pane window in one of the openings when the other 8 windows are all dual pane. You guessed it, the coach was shipped with the incorrect single pane window installed with 8 other dual pane windows. How does one goof that up? Needless to say, Keystone and Montana are not the only ones making poor mistakes and not catching them during the off the line post build inspection.
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07-28-2012, 05:30 PM
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#135
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
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It is industry wide Dave.There is little quality control on the assembly lines.I know you know what to look for in the new coach and it is going to be a great coach. But there will be stupid, little workmanship issues that make you wonder why you spent all that money.
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07-29-2012, 07:09 AM
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#136
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
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Could someone explain to me how the 3402 Big sky shrunk to 38'3" in 2013 from 39'1" in 2012 where did. Where I loose .8 inches and how come my tape measure says the thing is 41' 2" Did I lose .8 inches or gain 2.9 inches.Who measures these things.
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07-29-2012, 09:04 AM
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#137
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Montana Master
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 908
M.O.C. #7915
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by bighornram
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Hooker
What are the "skilled craftsmen" getting paid...minimum wage? $10/hour? $12/hour? Keystone, and you, are getting what they are paying for. To get a really "skilled craftsman" will require higher pay and a higher costing end product..which they are unwilling to do.
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Why? How much skill does it really require to assemble these things? I have no special training and I have had to fix many things that were put together with NO love. This is a motivational issue. Keystone needs to fix that. The product is good.
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by richfaa
There is a U shaped plastic slider down there that the door slides in. Our skilled craftsman did not have the time to screw it in the wall...Helen did
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Having been a manager of a company that employed people at the lower end of the pay scale, I can tell you that what we are talking about is money, not necessarily skill. If you pay an employee $25/hour you will get more and a better job from that person than a $10/hour person. If you switch people and pay the $25/hour person $10/hour, and the $10/hour person $25/hour...you'll get the same result...the $25/hour person does a better job. The only thing 99% of these people want to do is put in thier xx hours and get their xx dollars, and go home, that's it. You want to motivate them, give them more money. As one of my favorite talk show hosts says, "Follow the money!"
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07-29-2012, 09:37 AM
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#138
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Montana Master
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sebring
Posts: 3,657
M.O.C. #9969
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But at the same time, if you only give them 10 minutes to do a 15 minute job what do you think the out come will be? RVs are selling, so the Mfrs are trying to turn out as many as possible, what's Montanas running at now, about 7 per day. I fully agree that it the stupid little things that get you, but in the Grand Scheme of things I think they're pretty good for as quick as they're put together. We had stupid little things with our SOB just like Rich has had with his Big Sky, we have friends with a new 40 foot DP and they've had some of the same stupid things. Go over on the Keystone Forum and read the problems the Cougar, Outback, and other lesser Keystone products have had, might make you glad you bought higher up on the food chain and got a Montana, we loved ours and never had any major issues with it, we just decided to move even a little higher up the chain.
__________________
Michelle & Ann
2018 Chevy 3500HD High Country DRW 4X4 Crew Cab w/Duramax/Allison, Formally 2010 Montana 2955RL, Now Loaded 2016 SOB, Mor/ryde IS, Disc Brakes & Pin Box, Comfort Ride Hitch, Sailun 17.5 Tires.
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07-29-2012, 11:17 AM
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#139
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
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It has not made any difference how many a day are coming off the line. In 06/07 there were 21/22 Montana's coming off the line some of us will remember those numbers. there is a lot more than 7 a day coming off now. How many is not the problem.Properly trained workers properly supervised given enough time to do the task will solve the problem. This is a highly competitive industry and no manufacturer is willing to spend the money.
The dealers become the quality control for the manufacturer.Our dealer spotted the blemish in our awning before we got there to do the PDI.They rolled the awning down and there it was.They saw it at first glance. Why not at the factory......That is the problem.
Sure read any of the forums and you will see the same stories. Major issues are not the primary problem although ask Steve Emmel about that.
BTW...Still can not make the satellite work through the camper wiring. we E mailed the service center and asked for the CORRECT diagram for a 2103 3402 big sky with a build date of 5-3-2012. I can't wait......
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07-29-2012, 11:26 AM
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#140
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Troy
Posts: 1,980
M.O.C. #808
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Yeah, make my day and ask me! However, do it in an email as I won't answer any here on the MOC.
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