The electrical problem is back with a vengeance! - Montana Owners Club

Art-n-Marge · 12-19-2009, 03:27 PM

We lost the bedroom/microwave electrical, again. Last time this happened several months ago and about 3 or 4 trips back I replaced the GFCI outlet and everything magically came back and was working until now. Back then, I thought this was a faulty GFCI, but have always been very puzzled that the shared 20 amp circuit breaker for the microwave also stopped working and should be a completely different circuit. I posted this some time back, that neither circuit breakers had tripped, but the GFCI did trip and was not resettable. Whether the cbs are on or off there is no power last time and the same is true this time.

I have replaced the GFCI in the bedroom (next to the lavatory) but only connected the "Line" connection (not the "load") to debug one thing at a time. Both circuits are still dead. This tells me there is a big wiring problem in the rig that I need to find probably at the power panel and that when I replaced the GFCI I must have jostled things around enough to get it working. In other words I DID NOT fix it as I suspected the first time.

I plan to get the Monty back home (we are not far away) and start a more detailed debugging process, starting with every outlet on that line and try to determine the failing point. I have a feeling that I will end up replacing the 15/20 amp shared breaker in the panel.

The 12v lights are fine so we do have lighting, and all the bedroom stuff is working because I have plugged the television, alarm clock, IR transmitter (for the Satellite receiver) and phone charger into the 20 amp W/D circuit in the front closet. Just the bedroom/lavatory outlets and the lighting over the lavatory are "dead" and so is the microwave (I think that is the only thing on that 20amp circuit).

I would appreciate any other debugging ideas, helpful hints or experiences!

racerjoe · 12-19-2009, 03:34 PM

do you know if you can get an "accurate" wiring diagram that would show any junction boxes under the belly? would Keystone have one if you gave them the serial # of your unit?

exav8tr · 12-19-2009, 04:13 PM

The only wiring diagrams are in the heads of the "old world craftsmen"!!! That's what a tour of the factory proved.

Art, in my '06 3400, the microwave has its own CB and is not connected to the gfci circuit. Don't know if this helps you or not. That's about all I can add.

I think I would have the MW on its own breaker, if that is possible.

HamRad · 12-19-2009, 04:19 PM

Racerjoe,
Are you trying to cause trouble?! Just kidding. But last time the 'wiring diagram' issue came up it caused a lot of discussion. Keystone does NOT have a wiring diagram for the Montana line. As far as we know they do NOT make wiring diagrams for any of their trailers.

Dennis

racerjoe · 12-19-2009, 04:31 PM

What was I thinking!!!!

must be getting to close to christmas and thinking of what santa's bringing.

My thought was if you have a junction box in the belly,from there it could be split into separate circuits where your neutrals are tied together and power is split for breakers. Am I making any sense? Or are sugerplums dancing in my head?????????????

Art-n-Marge · 12-19-2009, 06:34 PM

Actually racerjoe, that's one of the things I'll be looking for since I don't have a schematic or what I need more is the manufacturing specification. Just because I can get the schematic doesn't mean it was followed correctly by the person putting the wires together. The manufacturing spec will describe that better on how to install the wires to satisfy the schematic. So far I can see that it looks like all the neutrals (white wires) are all attached to the same bus at the power panel, but then I don't know where they go in the trailer via other junction boxes or if these other connecttions are loose. A few hours of opening every outlet and checking should help that.

exav8tr - The two circuits ARE separate (20amp for the MW and 15 amp for the bedroom lights/outlets). The 20amp does not appear to have a GFCI, but the 15 amp has a GFCI at the lavatory. However at the power distribution panel, they happen to be on the same shared circuit breaker - there is a single circuit breaker housing, but it has TWO distinct switches, one labeled 15, the other labeled 20.

Upon removal, it comes out as one piece but with both CBs. The combo breaker has a lead on the bottom for the 15 amp switch and another lead on the bottom for the 20 amp switch. At the top there is a single blade that connects into the bus (I believe this is the incoming shore power). I am not familiar with this type of CB but it looks like this allows for 15 amps to go through one side and 20 amps for the other on its way into the trailer 110v outlets and lights.

Thanks for the other ideas. These are along the lines of things I will be doing.

Champ_49 · 12-19-2009, 10:41 PM

Art, not sure if your unit is set up like mine or not, but under the kitchen slide there is a junction box on the 2007. I had a problem with mine and found out, that junction box was getting full of water and therefore was shorting out. This is not probably the case on your unit. The water was coming from a loose fitting on the water lines. The drip was dropping onto the electrical line for the microwave and following it down inside the protected tubing and filling that junction box. By the time I had discovered this the junction box was corroded bad and of course all fitting needed to be replaced. Cure was to replace and silicone the protected tubing that the wire went to box. Not a problem since. Hope this helps.

Dave

Tom S. · 12-20-2009, 01:03 AM

Art, the common point in your problem seems to be the breaker. Assuming you turned the breaker off when you replaced the first GFI, resetting it could have caused something to 'reconnect', making it seem that replacing the GFI took care of the issue. I have found these breakers a bit tricky when seating them on to the bus. Sometimes it seems like they are seated when in fact they are not. If the top of the breaker is not completely flush with its neighboring breakers, it is not seated properly. The difference may not be much, but there should be no difference, period. After seating, check to see if you have power at the bottom of the breaker with a volt meter, and if you do, then check the GFI and microwave. If seating isn't the issue, it could be the breaker itself. This particular breaker is a bit of an oddity. Double 15's and double 20's are readily available at Home Depot and Lowes, but a combo with one of each aren't as easy to find. Good luck and keep us informed!

jimcol · 12-20-2009, 01:18 AM

Art, I think Tom S might be on to something. Make sure that the breaker is well seated onto the buss. If the breaker is the problem let us know where you find a new one as it is an odd ball. I have never used this method on the RV but have used it in house wiring with some success in finding wiring runs and junctions. First you have to open all the commons at your breaker pane. Then plug a toner used in telephone work into the circuit I need to trace and follow the tone with a handheld amplifier. If you know anybody that does telephone or cable TV work they should have the equipment. If you have to purchase it you are probably looking at a $100 bill. If I'm not making much sense PM and I'll try to clear it up. Good luck. Jim C

NCFischers · 12-20-2009, 02:08 AM

The split 15/20 amp circuit breakers can be found at any electrical supply house that carries the Square D Homeline products.

noneck · 12-20-2009, 05:42 AM

I'd pull the load at the breaker and check for power when reset with DVM. If Ok, then pull all loads I could find and check resistance across each conductor; Hot to Common, Hot to GND, Common to GND...although the last one requires disconnection of White wire from buss.

Exnavydiver · 12-20-2009, 06:06 AM

Art, just for giggles check the two rear outlets for water. My curb side outlet behind my recliner was full of water last winter. The cause of this was one of the ladder mounting screws would frost up from humidity escaping through the outlets and freezing on the screw making a huge frost ball. When the ball started to melt during the day it dripped directly onto the outlet. The water made the GFI kick off which tool out the living room/kitchen circuit and the MW circuit. The remedy for this problem was to get a can of Stuff and cover the screw thickly with it so it would not frost up. Since then I have had no more problems. This is just one problem area and the are probably others but give it a shot... Dave

simonsrf · 12-20-2009, 10:58 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by racerjoe

do you know if you can get an "accurate" wiring diagram that would show any junction boxes under the belly? would Keystone have one if you gave them the serial # of your unit?

The answer is a resounding NO! sorry.

A huge bone-of-contention for me. They can't tell you a single serial number of any part or appliance in your rig!...makes for a real tough time of trying to replace parts....a wiring diagram? who you kidding?...old world craftsmen...yeah sure!

Wish Keystone would wake up and figure how much it costs them to continue to poorly service rigs (these are buying customers) they don't even know what is in them.

You would think that a simple POS device would be used to catalog appliances and part numbers that can be attached to the serial number of the rig and stored in a simple database! Which century are they living in?

Art, good luck with your problem, lots of knowledge here to help....thanks NOT to Keystone!

richfaa · 12-20-2009, 12:52 PM

I am just wondering... What TT/5th wheel manufacturer's provide wiring diagrams with the product... is it only Keystone that does not????
Thus far my problem with part numbers from Keystone is they had to many part numbers for the same thing. I tried to order a rear water fill assembly for my 06 3400 and they had like 4 numbers..

racerjoe · 12-20-2009, 02:10 PM

It is strange that in today's world of computer technologies, production line systems and all of the efficiency experts that RV manufacturers seem to still not have a streamline system in place. like you stated Rich four different part numbers for the same item. It sounds like if the makers could get there production systems and inventory streamlined the cost savings alone in this,they might be able to put better tires on their trailers or have documentation on the electrical systems. OMG!! what was I thinking, could you imagine what autos and airplanes would be like without keeping up with technology. Just my ramblings a little off topic...

carlson · 12-20-2009, 04:08 PM

Art, not sure if your unit is set up like mine or not, but under the kitchen slide there is a junction box on the 2007. I had a problem with mine and found out, that junction box was getting full of water and therefore was shorting out. This is not probably the case on your unit. The water was coming from a loose fitting on the water lines. The drip was dropping onto the electrical line for the microwave and following it down inside the protected tubing and filling that junction box. By the time I had discovered this the junction box was corroded bad and of course all fitting needed to be replaced. Cure was to replace and silicone the protected tubing that the wire went to box. Not a problem since. Hope this helps.

Dave
Dave & Linda
07 3400RL

I had the same problem as Dave did with our 2006 3400 RL.
Go under the slide on the left side and there are two (sealed) electrical boxes.
There is a good chance that one of them is or has filled with water and caused the wire to short or cause a dead short from corrosion.
The water is coming from the area of the water pump along the floor and into the flex wire tube and into a sealed box.
You will have to get a new box, cover, wire nuts, etc.
It is a easy fix, but drill a drain hole into the electrical box and drill one into the other one also.
Also if you can get to it in the compartment with the water pump, put some of the expandable foam into the hole.
Hope this helps

EagleRunner · 12-20-2009, 08:01 PM

Art,

have you checked those connections on your buss bars? A floating ground can cause all kinds of problems, including a reluctant GFI to reset. I come across a loose connection on the ground and return buss bars inside the breaker panel every so often and sure enough, when I come across a loose one and tighten it down the problem does go away. The way these things bounce down the road it is quite common for these connections to loosen up when those screws securing the wires to the buss bar back off. I've heard of others using locktite once they have these screws secure to prevent them from coming lose. Just a thought if nothing else seems to solve the problem.

Tom

dustinc02 · 12-22-2009, 03:11 PM

Just a thought. I have had the Kitchen GFCI trip a number of times on My 3400rl. It has always seemed to trip after I washed the RV. I would not be able to reset the GFCI for a couple hours afterwords. Seems to me that moisture could be the problem with mine. Not sure if that helps you.

hookman · 12-22-2009, 03:27 PM

I had my 5th go completely dead today and found the plug on the shore power cable had loose wires it is worth a check. Idid a post this afternoon under this topic. Good luck on finding your problem.

Art-n-Marge · 12-29-2009, 11:12 AM

YAY... problem solved. No loose wires, no water issues, etc. The problem turned out to be the 15/20 amp combination circuit breaker at the 110v power panel. I purchased an $8.00 replacement circuit breaker that matched exactly what was there and installed it and the microwave beeped back on (the 20 amp side), and now the 110v bedroom outlets and the lavatory light switch (15 amp side) work fine now, too. In the past I had replaced the GFCI at the lavatory but I don't think this was the problem. I think in that case it was a coincidence that it started to work because the real failing part (the 15/20 amp combo) got cool enough to start working again.

While rare, circuit breakers have been known to go bad, and I will have to watch for what being used could have caused it to fail. I am not able to take the bad circuit breaker apart because it's riveted. One of these days I'll take a hammer to it to crack it open and see if I can figure out what went wrong with it.

Thanks for the support and providing plenty of ideas on what to check.

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