Another weight question?

[rldriver]

I was just looking at the specs for the Big Sky (I have been doing that a lot lately) and it gives the shipping weight as 12,355# the carrying capacity of 3,750# for a total of 16,105# GVWR. They have change the axles to 7,000# axles. It my math is correct 2 axles at 7K = 14K, is this an over load of 2000# or do I not understand the axle capacity?
Thank for your thoughts.

[dsprik]

Pin weight is some of the GVWR, Dick. Typically, you can figure 15%-25% of the total GVWR to be on the pin, and therefore, not on the axles. At 16,105#, that puts a pin weight of 2,415# to 4,026#. This means that's even with a minimum weight on your pin (2,415#), that only 13,689#, at most should ever be on your two axles at the 14,000# rating.

This will more than likely not be this much on your axles, as most will typically carry a higher % than 15% on your pin.

Now, before you feel really relieved about this, don't forget that pin weight is massively important for your VEHICLE'S GVRWs... Obviously this is an area to keep a close eye on.

[kmh3212]

The pin weight is supposed to be 20% of total weight. Check the specifications for the pin weight. Add the 12,355 + 3,750 = 16,105 x 20% = 3,210 lbs pin weight. 16,105 - 3221 = 12,884 lbs on the axle fully loaded.
Check truck pin weight 3,210 lbs
Check truck towing load 16,105 lbs

On edit: Hey Dave, Your math is quicker than mine!
Kevin

[rldriver]

Thanks SPRIK, now why didn't I think of that> I have all the weights of my truck and our 2980RL so if I convert them to the Big Sky at capacity (lots of assumptions here but it's OK for now) the axle weight would be 12,500# the pin weight would be 3,600 (22%)

I will just have to wait and see what the actual pin weight of the Big Sky is because with the numbers that I am using my 04 3500 Dodge truck is about 1,500# over the GVWR and about 500# over on the rear axle. My Dodge has a towing capacity of 16,400# or 300# under the listed full capacity of the Big Sky.
Thanks again for setting me straight.

quote:Originally posted by dsprik

Pin weight is some of the GVWR, Dick. Typically, you can figure 15%-25% of the total GVWR to be on the pin, and therefore, not on the axles. At 16,105#, that puts a pin weight of 2,415# to 4,026#. This means that's even with a minimum weight on your pin (2,415#), that only 13,689#, at most should ever be on your two axles at the 14,000# rating.

This will more than likely not be this much on your axles, as most will typically carry a higher % than 15% on your pin.

Now, before you feel really relieved about this, don't forget that pin weight is massively important for your VEHICLE'S GVRWs... Obviously this is an area to keep a close eye on.

[Cat320]

Seems to be some confusion here.

If the GVWR is 16105 and the pw is 20% of that amount, or 3221, that leaves 12884 to be towed. The way I'm looking at the numbers above, and I could be wrong, the pw is being counted twice...once as pw and again as part of the trailer to be towed. I don't have your numbers, but with a dually, I can't see how you could be that far over weight.

On edit...unless you have srw 3500.

[William H. Collier]

In the specs the pin weight of the Big Sky is 2105lbs. This with the 2 7000lb axels give you a max gross weight of 16105.
Bill

[rldriver]

Bert, I think we have two separate issues here, tow capacity and axle weight. Here are my thoughts:
1. Dodge web site says that my 04 3500 (no duals) has a towing capacity of 16,400 and the weight of the Big Sky is 16,105 so I am under the "towing capacity" by 300#

2. Actual weight of my truck +- is:
front axle 4,520
rear axle 3,020

GAWR listed for my truck is:
front axle 5,200
rear axle 6,150

Assume pw is 3,221 then 3,020 + 3,221 = 6,241 or only 91# over the rear axle GAWR. So I think I will be OK. I based my original figures on a 22% pw ratio that is why I was higher.

3. GVWR listed for my truck is:
9,900

If we add the front axle of 4,520 + the rear axle 3,020 + the pw of 3,221 or a total of 10,761 and subtract this from 9,900 GVWR I am over 861 GVWR. This is the number that I am concerned with. Again the difference between this and my previous numbers is 20% vs 22%.

The last issue is, I sure wish I had a delivery date on our new rig.

Am I on the right tract?

Thanks for your input!!

quote:Originally posted by Cat320

Seems to be some confusion here.

If the GVWR is 16105 and the pw is 20% of that amount, or 3221, that leaves 12884 to be towed. The way I'm looking at the numbers above, and I could be wrong, the pw is being counted twice...once as pw and again as part of the trailer to be towed. I don't have your numbers, but with a dually, I can't see how you could be that far over weight.

On edit...unless you have srw 3500.

[rldriver]

Bill, Keystone changed the numbers on me, drat. If the 2,105 pin weight is a good number it will put the total under my rear axle GAWR of 6,150 but I am still over on the GVWR. I have not taken into consideration the extra weight of dual pane windows and slide toppers. I don't think I am going to worry about it until after I get the unit and start to fill it up with lots of junk. It looks like I will be under capacity until that happens.

Thanks for your help,

quote:Originally posted by William H. Collier

In the specs the pin weight of the Big Sky is 2105lbs. This with the 2 7000lb axels give you a max gross weight of 16105.
Bill

[William H. Collier]

Dick, you need to forget about those % pin weight numbers and go by your actual weight when you have your rig loaded and I dont think you will get anywhere near 3221 lbs on your new Big Sky.
Bill

[rldriver]

Thanks Bill, I was a little concerned when I ran the weights on my 2980 and the pw came out to be 2,760 or 22% of the 12,220 and with not a lot of stuff in it. It will be another year before we go full time and it is loaded.
Thanks again,

quote:Originally posted by William H. Collier

Dick, you need to forget about those % pin weight numbers and go by your actual weight when you have your rig loaded and I dont think you will get anywhere near 3221 lbs on your new Big Sky.
Bill

[dsprik]

quote:Originally posted by kmh3212

... On edit: Hey Dave, Your math is quicker than mine!
Kevin

Yeah, but I was still editing when you posted your final reply...

Dick, I agree with the others that the % is a good reference, but weighing empty and full are necessary for you to really know what you have.

You shouldn't have any problem with your setup...

[Cat320]

Dick, sent you a PM.

[David and Jo-Anna]

Every time I get involved in a weight discussion, I get someone upset--but here I go again.

Montana calculates their GVWR using a very simple formula--GVWR=total axle load capacity plus actual pin weight. Since the axle capacity for the Big Sky 340RLQ is 14,000# (2x 7,000# axles) and the pin weight is listed as 2,105#, that means a GVWR of 16,105#. That's the max rating--as long as you are below their 3,750# cargo carrying capacity, your total weight will be below the GVWR.

As for pin weight, my understanding is that Montana measures the actual pin weight of the base vehicle with the "typical" options but with no cargo. I have no idea what they consider to be the "typical" options for the Big Sky, but I'll bet that dual pane windows are not included in those weight calculations. That suggests that your actual pin weight will be substantially higher than 2,105# once you load in your cargo. That's where you have to look to your tow vehicle's own GWVR and axle ratings to make sure you don't exceed those ratings. The 15%-25% range that people use for pin weights just gives you the range in which it's best for your actual pin weight to fall.

As Cat320 and others have stressed, don't rely on the truck weights or towing capacities listed in the brochures of the manufacturers of your pickups. Get your truck weighed to see what it weighs, and subtract that weight from the total weight rating and the total towing capacity of your truck. Or at least look to the "tire sticker" on the driver's door pillar to see what they list as the maximum cargo weight your pickup can handle. But it's almost guaranteed that your resulting towing capacity will be well below 16,400#--no problem as long as you don't load your Big Sky to it's 16,105# capacity.

[sreigle]

Everything I've ever read says FW pinweight should be between 20% and 25%. Our 3295RK was at 23% (2300/14360). This 3400RL has pinweight of 19.6% (2860/14620), so it's just a bit light on the pin. But it handles beautifully so apparently it is not a problem.

[Cat320]

quote:Originally posted by sreigle

Everything I've ever read says FW pinweight should be between 20% and 25%. Our 3295RK was at 23% (2300/14360). This 3400RL has pinweight of 19.6% (2860/14620), so it's just a bit light on the pin. But it handles beautifully so apparently it is not a problem.

I'm looking at the Chevy brochure as I type this. The inside back cover says "Trailer kingpin weight should be 15 to 25 percent of total loaded trailer weight...."

On edit, Ford's "2006 RV and Trailer Towing Guide" says the same thing...page 27.

[pud2]

I thought the pin weight was not part of the dry weight of the trailer but the pin weight becomes part of your vehicle payload and that is where you have to add the payload capacity to your vehicle.To have your true towing capacity you would have to substract that from the gvwr. Again i thought the pin weight was part of tv payload???????????????????.

[Connorsmom]

I'm so confused by all this pin weight stuff now, I think I'm just gonna go buy a
Freightliner...LOL

Jan

[Cat320]

Sure is confusing isn't it? The best way I can explain it is to remember not to count the pw twice. Here's an example using my truck and Montana: Truck has a GVWR 11400, GCWR 23500, tow rating 16400; Montana GVWR 14000. Right off, you can see I cannot operate the truck at GW and tow anything at the max rating...that would be 27800, which is 4500 over GCWR. In fact using the truck at GW and the Montana at GW would not work...that would be 25400, 1900 over GCWR.

Here's a realistic example: the truck weighs 8000 ready to tow and the Montana is at GW of 14000...notice my GCW is 22000, so that's okay. If I add pw of 2500 to the truck, that means GVW is 10500, 900 below GVWR. To determine what I can tow, subtract GCWR - actual truck weight...23500 - 10500 = 13000. Now, we've already said that 2500 of the Montana is in the truck bed as pw, that reduces the Montana to 11500.

Bottom line, truck is 10500 (including 2500 worth of Montana pw) + 11500 for the Montana, all within weight limits.

I've checked these numbers...hope they are correct, if not somebody pls correct me.

[Wrenchtraveller]

Bert's post is correct. Here is another way to put it into words.

My Montana fully loaded is 12300 pounds. 2600 lb is on the pin and 9700 lb is on the Monty's axles. 2600 plus 9700 equals 12300 pounds so you see the pin weight is part of the Monty's GVWR.

Now that 2600 pounds of pin weight on my truck also becomes part of my truck's payload as does everything else that goes in the truck. Driver and passenger's are all part of the payload.

Every truck's payload is different because of the options on the truck and the weight of the stuff that different people carry. To find your truck's payload you must weigh it and subtract that figure from the GVWR which is on a sticker on the driver door jamb. The axle ratings are also on that same label and both axle ratings always add up to more than the GVWR.

My truck's GVWR is 11200 and my truck weighs 7300 pounds with me in it and a full tank of gas so my payload is 11200 minus 7300 = 3900.

Don't be misled by high GVWR numbers alone because if the truck is a heavy model, it can have a lighter payload than a lesser rated truck.

Example : A regular cab 4x2 Chev 2500 has a 9200 GVWR and this truck weighs 6000 pounds.
It has a 3200 pound payload.

A CC 4x4 F250 has a GVWR of 10000 but this truck weighs 7300 pounds. it has a payload of 2700 pounds.

The Chev 2500 HD can carry 500 pounds more weight so it can handle a larger Fifth wheel than the Ford in this example yet you will constantly read posts about a 10000 pound F250 being rated higher than the competition's 9900 one tons. This type of misinformation has resulted in more than one person buying the wrong tow vehicle. I get private emails from people on this issue so I know how confusing this all can get. Feel free to PM me if you want more clarification on this.

[sreigle]

quote:Originally posted by Wrenchtraveller


Example : A regular cab 4x2 Chev 2500 has a 9200 GVWR and this truck weighs 6000 pounds.
It has a 3200 pound payload.

A CC 4x4 F250 has a GVWR of 10000 but this truck weighs 7300 pounds. it has a payload of 2700 pounds.

The Chev 2500 HD can carry 500 pounds more weight so it can handle a larger Fifth wheel than the Ford in this example yet you will constantly read posts about a 10000 pound F250 being rated higher than the competition's 9900 one tons. This type of misinformation has resulted in more than one person buying the wrong tow vehicle. I get private emails from people on this issue so I know how confusing this all can get. Feel free to PM me if you want more clarification on this.

Don, your numbers are good and the concept correct but comparing a crew cab in one brand to a standard cab in another brand is a bit misleading. Naturally there would be a considerable weight difference. No argument here, just want to point that out. Even within the same brand there would be considerable difference because of cab configuration differences. There also is a difference between brands, with same cab/bed configuration. The Fords are generally heavier because of the heavier frame, suspension, and brakes. But also have higher ratings but still may have less payload when all the numbers are added up. Probably depends on the model, cab, bed, 4x4, etc.