Montana's Plight

[Montana_2608]

Hi all....I'm a new member here (less than a week), having become a member on this forum not because I'm an owner (yet) but because of an extreme interest in the Montana fifth wheel and my desire to make a purchase in the near future. First of all, I'm not new to RV's having owned a Coachman for 6 years and now own a Jayco, which I've owned for 7 years. I've used them alot and actually lived in the Coachman for 4+ years fulltime while working across the country. I also lived in the Jayco for 2+ years fulltime and stayed in this fifth wheel in extremely COLD weather. Like Butte Montana during the winter of '98 and I saw temps down to -18 degrees during that time and stayed plenty warm with no freezeups. I've gotta say, I never had any of the problems everyone on this board seems to be having, or have had. I'm not sure I even want a Montana now. But, regardless, I do think I know the answer as to why so many problems right now. Simply go to the Press Room section of the Montana website. Here are just a few of the article titles:

"Keystone RV Everest plant reaches capacity as luxury brand posts 123 percent sales climb. 6/15/04"

"Keystone RV building again with sales up 21% year-to-date - 9/11/03"

"Keystone RV sets new sales record - May 8, 2003"

"Keystone RV to build NEW Plants for Second Time within Year - 10/2/02"

"Keystone RV Moves Montana Fifth Wheel Production To New 85,000-Square-Foot Plant to Meet Demand - 10/01"

The popularity of the Montana is really a boom for Keystone, but it's also their Albatros they are hanging around the customers neck. If you read these articles you can see that Keystone is having a very hard time keeping up with demand. I'm sure orders are thru the roof on these units and they are rushing the manufacturing process to try to meet the demand for this product. It seems apparent to me that these problems I'm reading about on this forum are a result of poor workmanship at the factory caused by extreme rushing to get the units built. This also pours over into the OEM suppliers, who are also rushing to meet demand, not wanting to lose Keystone as a customer. Sure, there are sometimes problems with new RV's, but not at this proportion! Having lived full time in RV's for several years I naturally lived in many RV parks, saw many brands and talked with many owners. I just can't remember so many problems and frustration voiced by so many people. If you do some research, you can see that many RV manufacturers are in the same boat as Keystone. The normal RV market has been growning very fast the past few years. When you add the market the baby boomers, of which I belong, to this, it's straining the RV manufacuterers to keep up. I expect the quality of RV's will not improve until the manufacturing end of the market has time to SLOW DOWN and build them like they are supposed to be built.
Just my nickles worth!!

[DHenry]

Well said. I know from first hand experience that the more I rush my employees, the more call backs I get. If they are allowed enough time to get the job done properly, I end up more profitable and my customers are happy.

[azstar]

The "Nail Head" has been struck.

[fla hobo]

Diito!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sreigle]

Lots of good insights there, Randall53. Thanks for posting. I have to wonder, also, if the purchase of Keystone by Thor back in 2003 is starting to show it's ugly head. Thor is not known for good quality. Initially they seemed to leave Keystone alone, possibly because sales and probably profits were good. But I do have to wonder what is happening.

[harleyrider]

Well i`am sure that the people that just bought a 2005 model will love to read your post.Wish I could say your dead wrong but your probably not.

Montana has been the best selling 5th wheel for a few years now-but I guess thats a double edge sword.

I too am having some problems but I truely do love this Trailer and will just hope that the dealer and Keystone will make things right as they should be.

Speaking of problems-I will be bringing it in for the bed room slide crack problem(second time-new dealer)but now i have noticed that on the kitchen slide on the outside I am seeing CRACKS in the fiberglass skin.These aren`t spider cracks,they look a tad bigger then that.I will point this out to the dealer when I bring it down in January.He will probably wish he never accepted me as a new customer.But my warrenty is up in March of 2005 so I better get it fixed while the gettings good.I would say the spot where the cracks are is maybe a 1 foot by 2 foot area,right under the fridge vent on top.I`am pretty observent and these cracks were not their before and I haven`t had the Montana out.Its like they just appeard over night.Kind of odd and disappointed also.

[Montana_2608]

I'm sorry to hear you are experiencing problems also. I didn't really intend to hurt any feelings, I was simply voicing an observation I had made while researching Montanas as well as several other brands. It just seems that the RV world as a whole has accepted the fact that there will always be these kinds of problems with new RVs and I just feel this shouldn't be the case. I'd say if enough people called the manufacturers/factory reps etc...demanding an explanation why these things are happening, they might do something about it. I know if I had just paid $45,000 - $50,000 for a new Montana and the carpet was tearing, walls and showers were leaking, slideouts jamming, fiberglass cracking, just to name a few, I'd be PO'd big-time. It also seems to me, after asking a dealer about all the problems I'm seeing, that even the dealers are stressed out trying to make all the customers happy, or have given up, or just didn't give a darn to start with. I was told that they (dealers) can't do anything about the quality the manufacturers turn out, they can just try to fix it as best as they can. I'm sure there are those that have no problems since they are selling them by the 10's of thousands each year. It just seems to me that the types of problems I'm seeing on this forum, and others, are repetitive problems. You'd think the manufacturers would take notice, since I've heard they monitor these boards (Keystone/Montana has a link to this forum on their webpage), change their quality control or manufacturing processes to ensure these problems are eliminated, instead of continuing to do the same thing over and over. There's an old saying: "If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten" or something to that effect. In the past two days I've spent a lot of time looking at the web pages of many brands of fifth wheels. They are all experiencing record sales, rapid growth, rapid expansion of facilities and they ALL seem to be hiring like crazy. Some even have job applications you can download on their websites!! The forums on the web are full of their problems too. Anyway, I suppose when all these new facilities are built and the new employees are trained things will get better. I'd like to think so anyway. I know I'm going to hold off on my purchase right now, keep my 98 Jayco and see what the next couple of years brings. I hope you have good luck with getting your problems corrected!

[toolmanroy]

Randall, there are many of us on this forum who have had few, if any problems with our Montanas. We have not taken ours back in for anything since we bought it at the end of June. Only those with problems have a lot to say. We owned a Jayco TT, and though we liked it we had a leak they could never fix. Nothing is perfect. The important part is having a manufacturer and dealer willing to work with you when something goes wrong. If someone asked us what we thought of the Montana we would give it high marks because of our own experience.

[patodonn]

All well said, valid points, but, please remember that, in general, only folks with problems usually bother to put them on the Forum. Almost no one writes to say how uneventful their RV experience is or how their rig has no problems. You have to keep that in mind when reading the Forum posts. As far as the Montana tech stuff, it is, by nature, a problem forum.

We have had our share of fairly minor things to be fixed on the 03 Montana. All in all, IMHO, there isn't a better product for the $$. There may be some better in certain aspects, but not at the price.

Just my opinion.

Best,

[captbanjo]

Good points made but I wonder, do the other companies, such as Jayco, have an internet site devoted wholly to their product as Montana has with MOC? If so, I'd be interested in perusing them and determining whether Montanas have a disproportionate amount of problems or not. I know there are 'catch-all' forums for different makes and models but I'd be interested in seeing some product specific sites that allow the consumer to vent as we are allowed to do here.

[Glenn and Lorraine]

I have been surfing the RV forums for a couple years now and have yet to find another forum quite like the MOC. Oh there are a couple RV specific forums out there but they get very little traffic and therefore very few posts or they are pretty much controlled by the RV manufacturer and any real condemning posts are deleted.
The advantage of the MOC is it is in no way shape or form controled by Montana or Keystone. Therefore we can pretty much post whatever comments, complaints or even suggestions we desire. And the best part is Montana monitors this forum and actually encourages us to "Tell it like it is". I guess this is part of the reason Montana is the number 1 selling RV for the past 3 or 4 years. BUT not only in New units but USED as well. Number 1 in both NEW and USED SALES is telling us they must be doing something right. You don't get to the top by building anything other than quality rigs.

[Jeff Heiser]

We have owned 3 different travel trailers - Coachmen, Fleetwood and Montana. We purchased our 2005 327RKS Mountaineer about 3 months ago. I can tell you this of the three the 327RKS is the best. Even in this short period of time (well not really we have close to 7000 miles on it already) I can tell the extreme difference between it and other brands. Of the two others we owned each were back in the shop for various issues within a month of purchase. Before buying our 2005 327RKS I did my homework and found, at least for us, the Mountaineer by Montana to be the best for the money on the market that fit our needs and desires. The artic package alone is light years ahead of the competition. Along with many of the other features you just don’t find standard on other makes and models. As of now, we will always have a Montana brand if we own a travel trailer.

Jeff Heiser
Merritt Island Florida

[lightningjack11]

Great info Jeff and Glen.

I noticed that my low NADA value on my rig is still within 3000 of what I paid and that is after over 20000 miles on the road. Of course I bought used in 2002.

What I would like to see is a running poll kept by the forum of satisfied verses unsatisfied. It would be nice to know what the percentages are.

[Montana_2608]

I'd like to hear from those that have experienced no problems at all. Even on the "make me feel good" post the people that responded were having problems, though minor ones. To some, even minor problems get to be an annoyance. Especially when they keep happening. It's also true that most owners of RV's with minor defects are silent. But I'm sure here are lots more problems that don't get posted. It seems I've seen several people that just fix the problems themselves. That's certainly the way to get it done right and KNOW it's done right. I would love to see an area on the MOC devoted to rating dealers according to Price and Customer satifaction/service. It would really help those of us in the market for a new/used Monty. I do believe the Montana is the best RV on the market for the price range. It would just be nice to see Keystone upgrade their quality control process to limit even minor defects in such nice vehicle. I know it can be done.

[rames14]

Randall53 -
I have spent over thirty years in manufacturing, with the last two working in problem solving of manufacturing/design issues with automotive components/systems. If you look back to the 70's, you just expected to take your new car back to the dealer many times. It wasn't until a competitor (in this case, Toyota) changed the paradigm from percent defective to PPM (parts per million). It is now to the point when you ship one bad product to the big three, you have someone on a plane to the factory. And that's for a $2.00 transmission band. Now, that was driven by the change in quality expectations - because at least one manufacturer could deliver to a significantly higher quality level than the rest of the industry. And, it may surprise you, but Toyota is one of the leaders in fewest hours to manufacture a vehicle. In fact, at the Nummi plant (joint venture between Toyota and GM) in California, they can change over from manufacturing the Vibe hood to a Corolla hood in less than 8 minutes. And let me tell you something, they aren't standing still. One of the things that struck me about the tour of the Montana factory is none of the process is documented. They rely solely on the fact that they have a stable workforce that has been building Montanas for years. Unlike the other manufacturers, they level load their schedule year round and don't have the layoffs in the winter like other manufacturers. Just my two cents worth.

[Native Tex]

quote:Originally posted by Randall53

I'd like to hear from those that have experienced no problems at all. Even on the "make me feel good" post the people that responded were having problems, though minor ones. To some, even minor problems get to be an annoyance. Especially when they keep happening. It's also true that most owners of RV's with minor defects are silent. But I'm sure here are lots more problems that don't get posted. It seems I've seen several people that just fix the problems themselves. That's certainly the way to get it done right and KNOW it's done right. I would love to see an area on the MOC devoted to rating dealers according to Price and Customer satifaction/service. It would really help those of us in the market for a new/used Monty. I do believe the Montana is the best RV on the market for the price range. It would just be nice to see Keystone upgrade their quality control process to limit even minor defects in such nice vehicle. I know it can be done.

Randall53 we just purchased our second Keystone product. First a Mountaineer and now a Montana. I can say that I have had no problems with either unit. The new one has only been used a couple of trips, but one longer one planned for the holiday season, but expect no problems. Keep in mind these things are hauled down the road and are expected to say showroom fresh. You have to expect some problems; hopefully only minor upkeep related. It is just like owning a stick built home, the joy of home ownership brings upkeep problems.

[lightningjack11]

That was a good post Rames14. There is just too much demand in the RV industry to take time out for quality issues.

[Montana_2608]

rames14 - Thank you for an excellent post. I suppose many feel I am bashing the Montana brand. That has not been my intentions. I was just hoping to initiate some thought and conversation relating to these problems and that this could be a WAKE-UP-CALL to Keystone and all the Manufacturers. I've been an RV owner for years and love the life! I will probably own one until I die. I also think Montana is the most beautiful RV on the market today and hopefully soon, I'll own one. I suppose the problem I've had recently is understanding the low expectations of the RV buyer, (industry wide) as far as quality goes, and the acceptance of the fact that RVs are going to have problems, (just as you said of the auto industry of the '70s) and simply have to be taken back to the dealer several times before everything is right. Most of these problems I've seen are on brand new units, and seem to be the results of shoddy manufacturing and are NOT related to the fact that an RV is towed up and down the road. In fact, from the posts I've seen, after all the problems are corrected the RV does fine. I just feel that, since competetion between Manufacturers hasn't done it, that if we all voiced higher expectations for a quality product and customer oriented dealers at the time of purchase, (like you mentioned happened in the auto industry after Toyota forced it upon the Big 3 auto makers in the U.S.) then maybe the RV industry would respond in kind. It's a real hassle to have to return a shiny, new 13,000 pound vehicle back to the dealer, or factory for repairs. I think most, if not all customers, would gladly wait an additional two to three days (I'd be glad to wait a week!)for delivery if it afforded the time needed to accomadate a quality related inspection at each stage of the RV construction cycle so these problems could be corrected immediately. I feel this would probably alliviate many, if not all, of the current problems found by the consumer AFTER delivery of the RV and then reported on these forums. I'm sure it would save a lot of stress and forboding in the decision to purchase one. Not to mention being a plus as far as being cost effective for the RV companies too. Of course, then someone would have to remove the "Montana Problems & Technical Help" section....and I'd have to find something else to complain about. Right? I've worked in and watched many manufacturing plants and processes across the US as well as during construction. I've seen the huge difference it makes in products manufactured with and without quality control. Ok...I'm through...I'll hush...and ya'll can go on with your forum. (I hope I didn't offend anyone)

[captbanjo]

No Randall, I think you've raised valid points and I don't sense any offense taken in the replies to your post. For my part, I'm simply wondering if the existence of this forum gives rise to the perception of more problems with Montanas or whether the problems are, in fact, more prevalent than with other companies. I'm really curious about this. I am 98% satisfied with my Montana. I've had a couple of problems but nothing major. I guess what I'm wondering is whether Montana is on line with the rest of the industry regarding quality control. I'm not even thinking about quality control overall, just how Montana figures into current standards.

[Chester]

We owned our Montana 2750 for 4 years before selling it a few weeks ago. We had some minor issues like a leaky joint in the water line where the joint hadn't been tightened up properly. The first trip out we had wet carpet in the dinette area due to this. Only other issue we had was when the skin under the bedroom area cracked and Keystone replaced that even though we were almost 2 yrs out of warranty. I do believe RVs in general, including Montana have poor quality control during the manufacturing process and wonder why we pay so much money and still get some of these "minor" issues.

I will be ordering a new Montana within a couple of weeks for 2 reasons. I think they are one of the best values on the market and Keystone steps up to the plate when they need to.